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Originally posted by Whitebeards

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Originally posted by QSatu

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Originally posted by Nephaerius

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Originally posted by Z3R01   Just face it guys.  The people that need a gear progression system in a mmo for it to be worth staying in heavily outweigh the people that dont want it. Every day people leave GW2. this will keep people playing longer.  

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People played GW1 for 7+ years.  There was literally 0 item progression.  Everything was entirely cosmetic.  There are other, better, ways to keep people playing your game then introducing a treadmill. 

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Sorry but if that was a case ANet wouldn't do gW2. One of the reasons they started working on the 2nd game was that endless horizontal expansion of the game became stale for them.

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Anet wated to make a proper open world MMO.

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That doesn't inspire seeing as they still made an instanced world anyway. Although maps were much larger.

Originally posted by Nitth

 

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Originally posted by Whitebeards

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Originally posted by QSatu

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Originally posted by Nephaerius

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Originally posted by Z3R01   Just face it guys.  The people that need a gear progression system in a mmo for it to be worth staying in heavily outweigh the people that dont want it. Every day people leave GW2. this will keep people playing longer.  

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People played GW1 for 7+ years.  There was literally 0 item progression.  Everything was entirely cosmetic.  There are other, better, ways to keep people playing your game then introducing a treadmill. 

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Sorry but if that was a case ANet wouldn't do gW2. One of the reasons they started working on the 2nd game was that endless horizontal expansion of the game became stale for them.

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Anet wated to make a proper open world MMO.

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That doesn't inspire seeing as they still made an instanced world anyway. Although maps were much larger.

Instances as in cities and dungeons? world is very much open and a lot bigger than any recent themepark i can remember. Compared to GW..GW2's open world is a huge step forward.

Originally posted by Whitebeards

Originally posted by Nitth

 

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Originally posted by Whitebeards

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Originally posted by QSatu

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Originally posted by Nephaerius

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Originally posted by Z3R01   Just face it guys.  The people that need a gear progression system in a mmo for it to be worth staying in heavily outweigh the people that dont want it. Every day people leave GW2. this will keep people playing longer.  

---

People played GW1 for 7+ years.  There was literally 0 item progression.  Everything was entirely cosmetic.  There are other, better, ways to keep people playing your game then introducing a treadmill. 

---

Sorry but if that was a case ANet wouldn't do gW2. One of the reasons they started working on the 2nd game was that endless horizontal expansion of the game became stale for them.

---

Anet wated to make a proper open world MMO.

---

 

That doesn't inspire seeing as they still made an instanced world anyway. Although maps were much larger.

Instances as in cities and dungeons? world is very much open and a lot bigger than any recent themepark i can remember. Compared to GW..GW2's open world is a huge step forward.

Open zones is more like it. Open world, open world, open world...I think I remember a large thread debating that term.

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Originally posted by Whitebeards

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Originally posted by Nitth  

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Originally posted by Whitebeards

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Originally posted by QSatu

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Originally posted by Nephaerius

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Originally posted by Z3R01   Just face it guys.  The people that need a gear progression system in a mmo for it to be worth staying in heavily outweigh the people that dont want it. Every day people leave GW2. this will keep people playing longer.  

---

People played GW1 for 7+ years.  There was literally 0 item progression.  Everything was entirely cosmetic.  There are other, better, ways to keep people playing your game then introducing a treadmill. 

---

Sorry but if that was a case ANet wouldn't do gW2. One of the reasons they started working on the 2nd game was that endless horizontal expansion of the game became stale for them.

---

Anet wated to make a proper open world MMO.

---

  That doesn't inspire seeing as they still made an instanced world anyway. Although maps were much larger.

---

Instances as in cities and dungeons? world is very much open and a lot bigger than any recent themepark i can remember. Compared to GW..GW2's open world is a huge step forward.

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its not open though. going through a gate opens up a map 'instance' it breaks immersion for me personally knowing that there's nothing beyond that hill but a skybox. The only way to get over that hill is to go through a gate and open the corresponding map.

Originally posted by Nitth

 

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Originally posted by Whitebeards

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Originally posted by QSatu

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Originally posted by Nephaerius

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Originally posted by Z3R01   Just face it guys.  The people that need a gear progression system in a mmo for it to be worth staying in heavily outweigh the people that dont want it. Every day people leave GW2. this will keep people playing longer.  

---

People played GW1 for 7+ years.  There was literally 0 item progression.  Everything was entirely cosmetic.  There are other, better, ways to keep people playing your game then introducing a treadmill. 

---

Sorry but if that was a case ANet wouldn't do gW2. One of the reasons they started working on the 2nd game was that endless horizontal expansion of the game became stale for them.

---

Anet wated to make a proper open world MMO.

---

 

That doesn't inspire seeing as they still made an instanced world anyway. Although maps were much larger.

It's a proper MMORPG... GW1 wasn't mmorpg since you couldn't play with people outside of your group when you left the outpost. So I think they improved the old GW1 model, by far. (Ok, maybe the pvp is lacking a little) :)

GW2 is instanced but it's not really noticable since you have the option of teleporting anywhere you want, so loading screen (or just a freezed screen unitll your computer loads everything) would pop up even if the world wasn't "instanced"...

Tho since gw2 zones can support such a large amount of players I don't consider them as standard instance as I did in SWTOR for example. Also, they made it instanced in order to keep their model of B2P since it reduces the costs of servers and etc. etc.... That's the main reason why it's "instanced" and I think it's alright... The game gives me far better experience for the money I payed than any other mmorpg so far.

Originally posted by Nitth

 

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Originally posted by Whitebeards

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Originally posted by Nitth  

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Originally posted by Whitebeards

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Originally posted by QSatu

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Originally posted by Nephaerius

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Originally posted by Z3R01   Just face it guys.  The people that need a gear progression system in a mmo for it to be worth staying in heavily outweigh the people that dont want it. Every day people leave GW2. this will keep people playing longer.  

---

People played GW1 for 7+ years.  There was literally 0 item progression.  Everything was entirely cosmetic.  There are other, better, ways to keep people playing your game then introducing a treadmill. 

---

Sorry but if that was a case ANet wouldn't do gW2. One of the reasons they started working on the 2nd game was that endless horizontal expansion of the game became stale for them.

---

Anet wated to make a proper open world MMO.

---

  That doesn't inspire seeing as they still made an instanced world anyway. Although maps were much larger.

---

Instances as in cities and dungeons? world is very much open and a lot bigger than any recent themepark i can remember. Compared to GW..GW2's open world is a huge step forward.

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its not open though. going through a gate opens up a map 'instance' it breaks immersion for me personally knowing that there's nothing beyond that hill but a skybox. The only way to get over that hill is to go through a gate and open the corresponding map.

Dare I ask what games wouldnt break immersion for you then? Only one I can think of without any zoning whatsoever is perhaps UO. EQ1 had zoning to some areas, and WoW just had large maps in the form of continents, you still had to zone between them. Vanguard also has zoning between continents (and horrible tearing when you loaded a new chunk).

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Originally posted by evilastro
Dare I ask what games wouldnt break immersion for you then? Only one I can think of without any zoning whatsoever is perhaps UO. EQ1 had zoning to some areas, and WoW just had large maps in the form of continents, you still had to zone between them. Vanguard also has zoning between continents (and horrible tearing when you loaded a new chunk).

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World of warcraft actually doesn't break immersion for me (i dunno about currently)

Zones in wow load on the fly you can walk over a hill and see beyond. you may not see all the npcs yet but its a master-craft of illusion.

Your right, all zones were consolidated into 2 LARGE landmasses. the trick here is that you had to que for boats to reach the other side. if you tried to swim you would die. - atleast you got the chance to try.
i would suspect if you had debug abilities you could swim all the way out and you would hit the instance teleport trigger thereby being teleported to the other side of the sea.

I understand how it all works, (sometimes i wish i didnt) but if you can create the illusion of a seemless world then your doing it right.

Originally posted by evolver1972

Originally posted by Nephaerius

Just going to point out this contradiction:

Latest blog/update: “we’re not building a gear treadmill”

Previous blog/update: “The Future of Items Progression: This is just the beginning. In November, we’re only adding the first level of Infusions and Ascended Rings and Back slots, so that leaves us a lot of room to build upon these levels of Item progression in future content.”

???????????

Also, ANet is standing by the claim that this is "bridging the gap between Exotics and Legendaries."  In case you don't know this, Exotics and Legendaries have the exact same stats!  Ascended gear is factually better than both those tiers.  If ANet is telling the truth here then they would have to buff stats on Legendaries to keep up their "levels of item progression."  The alternative is that's just pure bs.  An intermediary step (Ascended) can't be statistically better than the final one (Legendary).  If they then do not buff Legendary stats everyone will rely solely on Ascended gear.

"You’ll also see more Legendary items in the future and an update to our existing Legendary weapons. Legendary items were always intended to be on par with other “best-in-slot” items. So fear not, all existing Legendary weapons, which are currently on par with Exotics, will be upgraded to be on par with Ascended weapons at the same time that we add Ascended weapons to the game. Thus Legendaries will remain “best-in-slot” items. All Legendary items going forward will be of Ascended power."

 

Direct quote from the blog post in the OP of this thread.  I really wish people would read through things before they start going off.

 

They have explicitly said that Legendaries are still going to be the best gear in the game.  Nothing they have done so far has gone against that.  The infusions are only for the specific dungeon, just like infusing armor in GW1 was only for specific enemies.

This is exactly my point.  They say they're not creating a gear treadmill, but they're going to buff legendaries and add another tier in between.  What else would you call that?  A gear elliptical machine?  Let's not mince words.  They're trying to PR spin this so hard instead of just being upfront and honest.  They can't deny creating a gear treadmill when in fact that's exactly what they're doing.  Especially when they state they have new (non-cosmetic) item progression planned for the future.  So does that mean in 3-6 months they'll add Super Ascended gear and then buff legendaries again to keep them on top?  This is just stupid design. 

Make no mistake, I'm not saying the game is going to die or that I'm quitting by any means, however, I clearly take issue with the intended design change.

Originally posted by Nitth

 

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Originally posted by evilastro
Dare I ask what games wouldnt break immersion for you then? Only one I can think of without any zoning whatsoever is perhaps UO. EQ1 had zoning to some areas, and WoW just had large maps in the form of continents, you still had to zone between them. Vanguard also has zoning between continents (and horrible tearing when you loaded a new chunk).

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World of warcraft actually doesn't break immersion for me (i dunno about currently)

Zones in wow load on the fly you can walk over a hill and see beyond. you may not see all the npcs yet but its a master-craft of illusion.

Your right, all zones were consolidated into 2 LARGE landmasses. the trick here is that you had to que for boats to reach the other side. if you tried to swim you would die. - atleast you got the chance to try.
i would suspect if you had debug abilities you could swim all the way out and you would hit the instance teleport trigger thereby being teleported to the other side of the sea.

I understand how it all works, (sometimes i wish i didnt) but if you can create the illusion of a seemless world then your doing it right.

You zone for dungeons, you zone for battlegrounds, you zone quite often in expansions. Magically teleporting to a dungeon or battleground from anywhere in the world would surely be immersion breaking.

I know what you are saying, you can do the world in chunks like WoW and Vanguard do. WoW handles it a lot better obviously, but you do notice a slight tear occasionally when you cross zonelines. I guess the only game that would be up a true immersionists alley would be Vanguard, since all the dungeons and raids are open world. Everything else isnt a real MMO by your standards, including WoW.

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Originally posted by evilastro

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Originally posted by Nitth  

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Originally posted by evilastro Dare I ask what games wouldnt break immersion for you then? Only one I can think of without any zoning whatsoever is perhaps UO. EQ1 had zoning to some areas, and WoW just had large maps in the form of continents, you still had to zone between them. Vanguard also has zoning between continents (and horrible tearing when you loaded a new chunk).

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  World of warcraft actually doesn't break immersion for me (i dunno about currently) Zones in wow load on the fly you can walk over a hill and see beyond. you may not see all the npcs yet but its a master-craft of illusion. Your right, all zones were consolidated into 2 LARGE landmasses. the trick here is that you had to que for boats to reach the other side. if you tried to swim you would die. - atleast you got the chance to try. i would suspect if you had debug abilities you could swim all the way out and you would hit the instance teleport trigger thereby being teleported to the other side of the sea. I understand how it all works, (sometimes i wish i didnt) but if you can create the illusion of a seemless world then your doing it right.

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You zone for dungeons, you zone for battlegrounds, you zone quite often in expansions. Magically teleporting to a dungeon or battleground from anywhere in the world would surely be immersion breaking.

I know what you are saying, you can do the world in chunks like WoW and Vanguard do. WoW handles it a lot better obviously, but you do notice a slight tear occasionally when you cross zonelines. I guess the only game that would be up a true immersionists alley would be Vanguard, since all the dungeons and raids are open world. Everything else isnt a real MMO by your standards, including WoW.

 

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Never said anything on the lines of "not a real mmorpg". I said they continued to instance their worlds instead of a more zone streamed approach.

Originally posted by Nephaerius

Originally posted by evolver1972

Originally posted by Nephaerius

Just going to point out this contradiction:

Latest blog/update: “we’re not building a gear treadmill”

Previous blog/update: “The Future of Items Progression: This is just the beginning. In November, we’re only adding the first level of Infusions and Ascended Rings and Back slots, so that leaves us a lot of room to build upon these levels of Item progression in future content.”

???????????

Also, ANet is standing by the claim that this is "bridging the gap between Exotics and Legendaries."  In case you don't know this, Exotics and Legendaries have the exact same stats!  Ascended gear is factually better than both those tiers.  If ANet is telling the truth here then they would have to buff stats on Legendaries to keep up their "levels of item progression."  The alternative is that's just pure bs.  An intermediary step (Ascended) can't be statistically better than the final one (Legendary).  If they then do not buff Legendary stats everyone will rely solely on Ascended gear.

"You’ll also see more Legendary items in the future and an update to our existing Legendary weapons. Legendary items were always intended to be on par with other “best-in-slot” items. So fear not, all existing Legendary weapons, which are currently on par with Exotics, will be upgraded to be on par with Ascended weapons at the same time that we add Ascended weapons to the game. Thus Legendaries will remain “best-in-slot” items. All Legendary items going forward will be of Ascended power."

 

Direct quote from the blog post in the OP of this thread.  I really wish people would read through things before they start going off.

 

They have explicitly said that Legendaries are still going to be the best gear in the game.  Nothing they have done so far has gone against that.  The infusions are only for the specific dungeon, just like infusing armor in GW1 was only for specific enemies.

This is exactly my point.  They say they're not creating a gear treadmill, but they're going to buff legendaries and add another tier in between.  What else would you call that?  A gear elliptical machine?  Let's not mince words.  They're trying to PR spin this so hard instead of just being upfront and honest.  They can't deny creating a gear treadmill when in fact that's exactly what they're doing.  Especially when they state they have new (non-cosmetic) item progression planned for the future.  So does that mean in 3-6 months they'll add Super Ascended gear and then buff legendaries again to keep them on top?  This is just stupid design. 

Make no mistake, I'm not saying the game is going to die or that I'm quitting by any means, however, I clearly take issue with the intended design change.

What they could end up doing that would NOT make it a treadmill is to offer these rewards for every kind of content.  Once you start making it one play style only, that's where it becomes the treadmill.