Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by xAPOCx

Path of least resistence. Make something easier and it will become the norm.

Not easier .. more convenient. There is a huge difference.

Look at Diablo 3 .. it becomes MORE popular (xfire data) AFTER 1.05 where you can choose levels of difficulties (and hence the game can be much more difficult than before).

It is not about being easy. It is about to be able to jump in and do some quick (but can be challenging) combat. That is also why LOL is so popular (although i don't play it myself because i am not a pvp fan).

no there isent.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by xAPOCx

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by xAPOCx

Originally posted by Wolfenpride

I've always found it strange that LFG menu's went largely ignored in a lot of games. Not the dungeon finder which automatically puts you together, but the panel system that simply lists a flagged persons name/level/class and a comment or whatever.

I like that system better than dungeon finders personally, but again, from what i've ever been able to tell it was rarely used for some reason.

Because people are lazy. They dont want to wait. when they want a group they want to right then and there and the game should cater to them.

 

infact its the games fault for not knowing they wanted to group ten mins before the player even knew they wanted to group and start the que prossess for them automatically.

 

How dare your MMO not run these instance for you so that when you get home from your busy day, you dont already have a full set of new gear to put on.

Of course. Why would i want to wait (doing nothing) to play a game? Why would have have to be doin nothing?

Damn right .. anything that can reduce wait time is a plus in my books. I can understand this IF you doin nothing but waiting for groups.

And what does waiting have to do with running the instance for you? I don't want to wait. I want to kill something ... with a challenge if you believe that. Isn't that hard to understand? That is 99% of the games out there .. fire it up and go into combat.

http://www.callofduty.com/

http://www.streetfighter.com/

http://www.devilmaycry.com/

http://www.mortalkombatonline.com/

http://us.battle.net/en/int?r=d3

If you want a game like you say you like then theres plenty of games for you. The thing is however, there arent alot of games for me. and thats the problem.

 

I feel as if MMOs got a sickness over the years. An Infestation of console gamers came through and left a pox on the MMO world. Slowly eating away at all the things that made MMOs, Well MMOs. Now were left with

 

Yes, there are plenty of games for me. I never said it is a problem for me. I am pointing out that it is not so hard to understand why people are not patient about their entertainment, which i don't think you have a problem to recognize.

The fact is, MMO operators want a piece of that "impatient" market. If so, they have to make us wait less. It is that simple. If they want to cater only to patient players, it is their perogative, but don't be surprise if i don't play.

Oh, you do miss one thing ... not everyone want twitch FPS combat. MMO has an audience because of tactical class base combat, and there are few games like Diablo 3 to compete with them. If you want a fast co-op PVE fantasy classes based combat game, aside from Diablo 3 and TL2, there aren't many recent ones.

And whether it is a sickness is a point of view. To me, MMO is progressing into better games. And i may even play more of them.

Yep MMOs have fallen indead. couldent have said it better myself.

Originally posted by xAPOCx

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by xAPOCx

Path of least resistence. Make something easier and it will become the norm.

Not easier .. more convenient. There is a huge difference.

Look at Diablo 3 .. it becomes MORE popular (xfire data) AFTER 1.05 where you can choose levels of difficulties (and hence the game can be much more difficult than before).

It is not about being easy. It is about to be able to jump in and do some quick (but can be challenging) combat. That is also why LOL is so popular (although i don't play it myself because i am not a pvp fan).

no there isent.

You can't see the difference does not mean that there isn't any.

If you think that waiting 20 min for a boat is in the same league as fighting a hard boss .... well ... i guess i just have to ignore your opinion.

Originally posted by Thane

yea totaly ruined, only 11 million subs on wow. sooooo ruined ^^

 

well, if you wonder why play outside lfr, the reason could be "because you like a challenge".

lfr is the first step towards raiding. very easy compared to the real challenges.

 

 

also, lfr is quite easy compared to challenge mode.

again, if you like it easy, stick to random, no big deal

now is that the 11 million they had after cata was released (which they lost btw) or the reddit rumored 11 million after the release of pandarian kung fu because last one reported was at 9.1 mil the actual sales for those that can be considered returns would be 700,000 so that makes it's 9.8 million. so how does that equal 11 million again exactly?

besides, World of Warcraft is only holding on by a thread, December and the end of this month we'll begin to see annual passes expire, then when they report Q4 we can see what the remainder is.

Also, a huge section of the population on WoW's servers are RPers who could care less about any of the dungeons and never go.

Originally posted by itgrowls

Originally posted by Thane

yea totaly ruined, only 11 million subs on wow. sooooo ruined ^^

 

well, if you wonder why play outside lfr, the reason could be "because you like a challenge".

lfr is the first step towards raiding. very easy compared to the real challenges.

 

 

also, lfr is quite easy compared to challenge mode.

again, if you like it easy, stick to random, no big deal

now is that the 11 million they had after cata was released (which they lost btw) or the reddit rumored 11 million after the release of pandarian kung fu because last one reported was at 9.1 mil the actual sales for those that can be considered returns would be 700,000 so that makes it's 9.8 million. so how does that equal 11 million again exactly?

besides, World of Warcraft is only holding on by a thread, December and the end of this month we'll begin to see annual passes expire, then when they report Q4 we can see what the remainder is.

Also, a huge section of the population on WoW's servers are RPers who could care less about any of the dungeons and never go.

11m? I thought they said 10m+ in the last report.

Actually i am one of those annual passer who will quit after Dec. There is simply no need to play a P2P MMO when there are so many F2P, and online ARPG. I will still enjoy my copy of D3 though.

Really? I never saw any RPer when i play WOW .. and i have been doing it for years.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by xAPOCx

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by xAPOCx

Path of least resistence. Make something easier and it will become the norm.

Not easier .. more convenient. There is a huge difference.

Look at Diablo 3 .. it becomes MORE popular (xfire data) AFTER 1.05 where you can choose levels of difficulties (and hence the game can be much more difficult than before).

It is not about being easy. It is about to be able to jump in and do some quick (but can be challenging) combat. That is also why LOL is so popular (although i don't play it myself because i am not a pvp fan).

no there isent.

You can't see the difference does not mean that there isn't any.

If you think that waiting 20 min for a boat is in the same league as fighting a hard boss .... well ... i guess i just have to ignore your opinion.

con·ven·ience

noun

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by Whitebeards

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by asmkm22

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Thanks for spouting your reddit memes.

We're talking about the future of the genre, with affects ALL of us. There's a couple million of us who have spent the last 8 years watching our favorite genre get destroyed.

 

 

Apparently not.  Otherwise, games like SWG and Vanguard wouldn't have been complete failures.

Er, SWG was a huge success until it was turned into a themepark game. So, point goes against you there.

And there was enough interest in Vanguard for it to sell several hundred thousand copies on the first day, despite it being the same week as Buning Crusade's launch. The problem with Vanguard was that it launched 8 months too early, not the gameplay.

At no point SWG or any sandbox ever had couple of milion players which contradict your claim of 'couple of millions'.

I never claimed that a sandbox game, or SWG, had a couple million players.

I claimed that there were a couple million MMO veterans who have been displaced for the past 8 years, and that's a modest estimate I'd say.

Reading comprehension bud.

 

And really, if you're going to try to say anything about Vanguard, at least look up information on it even briefly, because you have zero idea what you're talking about.

Yeah modest sure..lol. For someone who pulls numbers out of his behind take your own advice maybe? the struggling states of sandbox MMOS puts a big hole in your modest estimations.

Couple of million of displaced vets for 8 years..lol...you are a funny guy!

Originally posted by Whitebeards

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by Whitebeards

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by asmkm22

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Thanks for spouting your reddit memes.

We're talking about the future of the genre, with affects ALL of us. There's a couple million of us who have spent the last 8 years watching our favorite genre get destroyed.

 

 

Apparently not.  Otherwise, games like SWG and Vanguard wouldn't have been complete failures.

Er, SWG was a huge success until it was turned into a themepark game. So, point goes against you there.

And there was enough interest in Vanguard for it to sell several hundred thousand copies on the first day, despite it being the same week as Buning Crusade's launch. The problem with Vanguard was that it launched 8 months too early, not the gameplay.

At no point SWG or any sandbox ever had couple of milion players which contradict your claim of 'couple of millions'.

I never claimed that a sandbox game, or SWG, had a couple million players.

I claimed that there were a couple million MMO veterans who have been displaced for the past 8 years, and that's a modest estimate I'd say.

Reading comprehension bud.

 

And really, if you're going to try to say anything about Vanguard, at least look up information on it even briefly, because you have zero idea what you're talking about.

Yeah modest sure..lol. For someone who pulls numbers out of his behind take your own advice maybe? the struggling states of sandbox MMOS puts a big hole in your modest estimations.

Couple of million of displaced vets for 8 years..lol...you are a funny guy!

Kid, I'm not talking about sandbox MMOs, when will you people realize this? I'm talking about veteran MMO fans, that includes UO, AC, SWG, DAoC, EQ. Or are you the mindset that all pre WoW MMOs were sandboxes, because they weren't themeparks?

Between all the old golden age MMOs, there were quite a few more than a couple million people, but I made a conservative estimate, because not all those people are still around, or even want hardcore MMOs.

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by Whitebeards

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by Whitebeards

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by asmkm22

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Thanks for spouting your reddit memes.

We're talking about the future of the genre, with affects ALL of us. There's a couple million of us who have spent the last 8 years watching our favorite genre get destroyed.

 

 

Apparently not.  Otherwise, games like SWG and Vanguard wouldn't have been complete failures.

Er, SWG was a huge success until it was turned into a themepark game. So, point goes against you there.

And there was enough interest in Vanguard for it to sell several hundred thousand copies on the first day, despite it being the same week as Buning Crusade's launch. The problem with Vanguard was that it launched 8 months too early, not the gameplay.

At no point SWG or any sandbox ever had couple of milion players which contradict your claim of 'couple of millions'.

I never claimed that a sandbox game, or SWG, had a couple million players.

I claimed that there were a couple million MMO veterans who have been displaced for the past 8 years, and that's a modest estimate I'd say.

Reading comprehension bud.

 

And really, if you're going to try to say anything about Vanguard, at least look up information on it even briefly, because you have zero idea what you're talking about.

Yeah modest sure..lol. For someone who pulls numbers out of his behind take your own advice maybe? the struggling states of sandbox MMOS puts a big hole in your modest estimations.

Couple of million of displaced vets for 8 years..lol...you are a funny guy!

Kid, I'm not talking about sandbox MMOs, when will you people realize this? I'm talking about veteran MMO fans, that includes UO, AC, SWG, DAoC, EQ. Or are you the mindset that all pre WoW MMOs were sandboxes, because they weren't themeparks?

Between all the old golden age MMOs, there were quite a few more than a couple million people, but I made a conservative estimate, because not all those people are still around, or even want hardcore MMOs.

If you read my first reply to your abusurd claims of  'us couple of million vets' you will notice that i didn't just mention sandbox MMO.

And calling me 'kid' won't make your 'modest' estimate look any less far fetched. A lot of good MMOS.. hybrid as well as sandbox came out in last few years and all of these MMOS struggled to stay afloat. If there really were couple of million strolling around waiting for something old school, they had the oppertuinty to put money where there mouth is. But i guess they were to busy complaining on forums instead of supporting these games.

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Instancing ruined mmos
Dungeon finder is a symptom not the disease

This is the correct prespective.

Instancing should not be part of mmos.

Originally posted by Jetrpg

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Instancing ruined mmos
Dungeon finder is a symptom not the disease

This is the correct prespective.

 

Instancing should not be part of mmos.

Absolutely not. They do serve one good purpose though. If an MMO has instancing, its pretty much guaranteed to be a bad MMO. If a game requires instancing to function, it was designed poorly and the priorities aren't there. If they're spending more money on scripted singleplayer missions in an MMO, you know the rest of the game sucks.

Originally posted by Whitebeards

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by Whitebeards

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by Whitebeards

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by asmkm22

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Thanks for spouting your reddit memes.

We're talking about the future of the genre, with affects ALL of us. There's a couple million of us who have spent the last 8 years watching our favorite genre get destroyed.

 

 

Apparently not.  Otherwise, games like SWG and Vanguard wouldn't have been complete failures.

Er, SWG was a huge success until it was turned into a themepark game. So, point goes against you there.

And there was enough interest in Vanguard for it to sell several hundred thousand copies on the first day, despite it being the same week as Buning Crusade's launch. The problem with Vanguard was that it launched 8 months too early, not the gameplay.

At no point SWG or any sandbox ever had couple of milion players which contradict your claim of 'couple of millions'.

I never claimed that a sandbox game, or SWG, had a couple million players.

I claimed that there were a couple million MMO veterans who have been displaced for the past 8 years, and that's a modest estimate I'd say.

Reading comprehension bud.

 

And really, if you're going to try to say anything about Vanguard, at least look up information on it even briefly, because you have zero idea what you're talking about.

Yeah modest sure..lol. For someone who pulls numbers out of his behind take your own advice maybe? the struggling states of sandbox MMOS puts a big hole in your modest estimations.

Couple of million of displaced vets for 8 years..lol...you are a funny guy!

Kid, I'm not talking about sandbox MMOs, when will you people realize this? I'm talking about veteran MMO fans, that includes UO, AC, SWG, DAoC, EQ. Or are you the mindset that all pre WoW MMOs were sandboxes, because they weren't themeparks?

Between all the old golden age MMOs, there were quite a few more than a couple million people, but I made a conservative estimate, because not all those people are still around, or even want hardcore MMOs.

If you read my first reply to your abusurd claims of  'us couple of million vets' you will notice that i didn't just mention sandbox MMO.

And calling me 'kid' won't make your 'modest' estimate look any less far fetched. A lot of good MMOS.. hybrid as well as sandbox came out in last few years and all of these MMOS struggled to stay afloat. If there really were couple of million strolling around waiting for something old school, they had the oppertuinty to put money where there mouth is. But i guess they were to busy complaining on forums instead of supporting these games.

There were no AAA hybrid or sandbox MMOs in the last couple of years. GW2 is probably the most non WoW clone-y AAA MMO since Vanguard, and thats not saying much.

There's clearly still an audience. Why do you think the EQ classic server that came out a couple years ago drew in so many people that they had to make TWO classic servers and an overflow?

Originally posted by DavisFlight

There were no AAA hybrid or sandbox MMOs in the last couple of years. GW2 is probably the most non WoW clone-y AAA MMO since Vanguard, and thats not saying much.

There's clearly still an audience. Why do you think the EQ classic server that came out a couple years ago drew in so many people that they had to make TWO classic servers and an overflow?

Man you 'couple of million vets' are really picky aren't ya? you guys will only play AAA hybrid or sandbox MMOS. I thought it was all about finding an old school MMO which is not your typical themepark clone regardless of whether it is AAA or not.

Originally posted by Whitebeards

Originally posted by DavisFlight

There were no AAA hybrid or sandbox MMOs in the last couple of years. GW2 is probably the most non WoW clone-y AAA MMO since Vanguard, and thats not saying much.

There's clearly still an audience. Why do you think the EQ classic server that came out a couple years ago drew in so many people that they had to make TWO classic servers and an overflow?

Man you 'couple of million vets' are really picky aren't ya? you guys will only play AAA hybrid or sandbox MMOS. I thought it was all about finding an old school MMO which is not your typical themepark clone regardless of whether it is AAA or not.

Yes, we're so very picky. How dare we expect a game with an actual budget and a team of more than 15 people. How dare we expect a finished game made by experienced developers.

Listen, you have a very strange point of view,, you seem to be going for outright trolling rather than logical arguing.

Yes, veterans, by and large, have higher standards than the WoW crowd. Many of us don't settle for rehashes like WoW and its clones, or find the themepark grind very entertaining.

That being said, when interesting and well made games come along, we're eager to see them do well. Sadly, that has not happened in a great long while.

But I'm sure if this long list of well made innovative oldschool games exists, you'd be willing to give it to me?

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by Whitebeards

Originally posted by DavisFlight

There were no AAA hybrid or sandbox MMOs in the last couple of years. GW2 is probably the most non WoW clone-y AAA MMO since Vanguard, and thats not saying much.

There's clearly still an audience. Why do you think the EQ classic server that came out a couple years ago drew in so many people that they had to make TWO classic servers and an overflow?

Man you 'couple of million vets' are really picky aren't ya? you guys will only play AAA hybrid or sandbox MMOS. I thought it was all about finding an old school MMO which is not your typical themepark clone regardless of whether it is AAA or not.

Yes, we're so very picky. How dare we expect a game with an actual budget and a team of more than 15 people. How dare we expect a finished game made by experienced developers.

Listen, you have a very strange point of view,, you seem to be going for outright trolling rather than logical arguing.

Yes, veterans, by and large, have higher standards than the WoW crowd. Many of us don't settle for rehashes like WoW and its clones, or find the themepark grind very entertaining.

That being said, when interesting and well made games come along, we're eager to see them do well. Sadly, that has not happened in a great long while.

 

But I'm sure if this long list of well made innovative oldschool games exists, you'd be willing to give it to me?

Logic states that old school MMO vets (couple of million) would play an old school MMO regardless of its budget as long as it is well made and strays away from WOW clone model. The term AAA wasn't even coined back in the days of EQ, UO etc. So it is just an excuse nothing more.

But i find it interestign how you can speak on behalf of couple of million vets (even though their existance is dubious at best). Us and we...as if they are following you around like lemmings.

There have been interesting and well made games in past 'Fallen Earth' for example. It was no AAA but it wasn't a low budget mess either. Spellborn another well made old school MMO which shut down because not enough people supported it. So that is two examples for starters.

Originally posted by Whitebeards

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by Whitebeards

Originally posted by DavisFlight

There were no AAA hybrid or sandbox MMOs in the last couple of years. GW2 is probably the most non WoW clone-y AAA MMO since Vanguard, and thats not saying much.

There's clearly still an audience. Why do you think the EQ classic server that came out a couple years ago drew in so many people that they had to make TWO classic servers and an overflow?

Man you 'couple of million vets' are really picky aren't ya? you guys will only play AAA hybrid or sandbox MMOS. I thought it was all about finding an old school MMO which is not your typical themepark clone regardless of whether it is AAA or not.

Yes, we're so very picky. How dare we expect a game with an actual budget and a team of more than 15 people. How dare we expect a finished game made by experienced developers.

Listen, you have a very strange point of view,, you seem to be going for outright trolling rather than logical arguing.

Yes, veterans, by and large, have higher standards than the WoW crowd. Many of us don't settle for rehashes like WoW and its clones, or find the themepark grind very entertaining.

That being said, when interesting and well made games come along, we're eager to see them do well. Sadly, that has not happened in a great long while.

 

But I'm sure if this long list of well made innovative oldschool games exists, you'd be willing to give it to me?

Logic states that old school MMO vets (couple of million) would play an old school MMO regardless of its budget as long as it is well made and strays away from WOW clone model. The term AAA wasn't even coined back in the days of EQ, UO etc. So it is just an excuse nothing more.

But i find it interestign how you can speak on behalf of couple of million vets (even though their existance is dubious at best).

There have been interesting and well made games in past 'Fallen Earth' for example. It was no AAA but it wasn't a low budget mess either. Spellborn another well made old school MMO which shut down because not enough people supported it. So that is two examples for starters.

Spellborn was NOT an oldschool game by any stretch. WoW style graphics, same quest hub based leveling, and it wasn't a very good game. Not to mention it had barely any media exposure. Hardly anyone had ever heard of it.

And while Fallen Earth was indeed one of the only good MMOs of the last 8 years, it still isn't a fantastic game, and the setting puts a lot of people off. And it has instanced dungeons. It's very unconventional, and its carved out its own niche, but it'd be foolish to expect everyone to play a game that focuses on such a small subset of people's interests.

And yes, the term AAA did indeed exist back in the day. Games like SWG were AAA, as were Asheron's Call 2, Sims Online, Final Fantasy 11. Even games like UO, to some extent, were AAA games of their time.

And no, logic dictates that if someone makes a good game, people will play it. MMO vets have higher standards, they're not going to play a bad game just because it has a death penalty. And they're not going to play a WoW clone just because it has a budget.

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Spellborn was NOT an oldschool game by any stretch. WoW style graphics, same quest hub based leveling, and it wasn't a very good game. Not to mention it had barely any media exposure. Hardly anyone had ever heard of it.

And while Fallen Earth was indeed one of the only good MMOs of the last 8 years, it still isn't a fantastic game, and the setting puts a lot of people off. And it has instanced dungeons. It's very unconventional, and its carved out its own niche, but it'd be foolish to expect everyone to play a game that focuses on such a small subset of people's interests.

And yes, the term AAA did indeed exist back in the day. Games like SWG were AAA, as were Asheron's Call 2, Sims Online, Final Fantasy 11. Even games like UO, to some extent, were AAA games of their time.

And no, logic dictates that if someone makes a good game, people will play it. MMO vets have higher standards, they're not going to play a bad game just because it has a death penalty. And they're not going to play a WoW clone just because it has a budget.

Sorry but the term AAA never existed back in days of AC ans SWG. now you are just making shit up. But anyways Spellborn wasn't just a quest hub based leveling MMO. And i don't even know what the fuck does 'WOW style grahpic means'.

Thing is the perfect MMO only exists in your head. So no matter how many examples i will give you will just shoot it down as 'not good enough'.  And since you are such a purist when it comes to MMOS and old school feel. I can bet that you will spend rest of your life complaining on these forums.

I just think these imaginary couple of million vets need to get back to re election because they chose a wrong leader for their heard.

Originally posted by Whitebeards

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Spellborn was NOT an oldschool game by any stretch. WoW style graphics, same quest hub based leveling, and it wasn't a very good game. Not to mention it had barely any media exposure. Hardly anyone had ever heard of it.

And while Fallen Earth was indeed one of the only good MMOs of the last 8 years, it still isn't a fantastic game, and the setting puts a lot of people off. And it has instanced dungeons. It's very unconventional, and its carved out its own niche, but it'd be foolish to expect everyone to play a game that focuses on such a small subset of people's interests.

And yes, the term AAA did indeed exist back in the day. Games like SWG were AAA, as were Asheron's Call 2, Sims Online, Final Fantasy 11. Even games like UO, to some extent, were AAA games of their time.

And no, logic dictates that if someone makes a good game, people will play it. MMO vets have higher standards, they're not going to play a bad game just because it has a death penalty. And they're not going to play a WoW clone just because it has a budget.

Sorry but the term AAA never existed back in days of AC ans SWG. now you are just making shit up. But anyways Spellborn wasn't just a quest hub based leveling MMO. And i don't even know what the fuck does 'WOW style grahpic means'.

Thing is the perfect MMO only exists in your head. So no matter how many examples i will give you will just shoot it down as 'not good enough'.  And since you are such a purist when it comes to MMOS and old school feel. I can bet that you will spend left of your life complainign on these forums.

I just think these imaginary couple of million vets need to get back to re election because they chose a wrong leader for their heard.

Still waiting for that list of great unique oldschool styled AAA MMOs.

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Still waiting for that list of great unique oldschool styled AAA MMOs.

You really think i will waste my time giving you more names so that you can just shrug it off because they aren't good enough for you? i am sorry but no thanks. I am not here to convert you or anything.

Also you keep throwigng AAA now in every post but your original argument wasn't about AAA old school MMOS but well made old school MMOS regardless of how much money is spent on it.