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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » RUINED MMOPRG's: Raid/Group Finder

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249 posts found
  User Deleted
11/13/12 3:57:38 PM#101
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by asmkm22
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by asmkm22
Also, group finders are like gay marriages.  If you don't like it, don't get one.

That's probably the worst analogy I've seen all week. You can't see how a feature has a broad impact on the game as a whole and the way its played?

 

What I know is that games and "communities" are no different before or after a group finder is added. 

The social community in Dark Age of Camelot changed radically when they put in instanced dungeons. The game became all about soloing and people started becoming very exclusive and unfriendly, only grouping with guildies.

It's foolish to say that a game isn't impacted by a huge feature like the dungeon finder.

In DAoC I made most of my friends in dungeons. With a dungeon finder, I will never, EVER see those people again.

 

That is an issue with dungeons/instances, and not tools to help you find groups for said dungeons and instances...

  User Deleted
11/13/12 4:01:09 PM#102
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by asmkm22
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by asmkm22
Also, group finders are like gay marriages.  If you don't like it, don't get one.

That's probably the worst analogy I've seen all week. You can't see how a feature has a broad impact on the game as a whole and the way its played?

 

What I know is that games and "communities" are no different before or after a group finder is added. 

The social community in Dark Age of Camelot changed radically when they put in instanced dungeons. The game became all about soloing and people started becoming very exclusive and unfriendly, only grouping with guildies.

It's foolish to say that a game isn't impacted by a huge feature like the dungeon finder.

In DAoC I made most of my friends in dungeons. With a dungeon finder, I will never, EVER see those people again.

Also, just to remind you, Catacombs was released as a direct response to popularity of instances with the MMO community, such as WoW dungeons.  Mythc was bleeding subs before WoW was released, and they knew it would only get worse as it gained momentum.

So again, if the anti-dungeon/instance/finder crowd truly is more than just a vocal minority, why did DAoC even have to try and cater to the new themepark paradigm anyway?

  DavisFlight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2388

11/13/12 4:04:41 PM#103
Originally posted by asmkm22
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by asmkm22
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by asmkm22
Also, group finders are like gay marriages.  If you don't like it, don't get one.

That's probably the worst analogy I've seen all week. You can't see how a feature has a broad impact on the game as a whole and the way its played?

 

What I know is that games and "communities" are no different before or after a group finder is added. 

The social community in Dark Age of Camelot changed radically when they put in instanced dungeons. The game became all about soloing and people started becoming very exclusive and unfriendly, only grouping with guildies.

It's foolish to say that a game isn't impacted by a huge feature like the dungeon finder.

In DAoC I made most of my friends in dungeons. With a dungeon finder, I will never, EVER see those people again.

Also, just to remind you, Catacombs was released as a direct response to popularity of instances with the MMO community, such as WoW dungeons.  Mythc was bleeding subs before WoW was released, and they knew it would only get worse as it gained momentum.

So again, if the anti-dungeon/instance/finder crowd truly is more than just a vocal minority, why did DAoC even have to try and cater to the new themepark paradigm anyway?

They were bleeding subs because of Trials of Atlantis and their /level 20 mechanic. Completely unrelated to the popularity of instances.

They thought that by appealing to casual gamers they could make up for this but all they did was destroy the core of their own game and piss off the vets while failing to attract the casuals.

  User Deleted
11/13/12 4:11:24 PM#104
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by TheSedated

It's not so much about the instancing and group finder, it's more about what is instanced and how the group finder is implemented. If we look at how Anarchy Online did it back in the day (before Lost Eden and Legacy of the Xan expansion packs) the game and the community really did benefit from it. Leveling in missions for example was completely instanced, but it wasn't hard to find a group. The people in your group did benefit a lot by getting a lot more xp in a lot less time. Then look at WoW, for example, where levelling in a full group can even slow you down because of a lack of mobs to kill etc. Then you have raids, in WoW and alike instanced, in AO they where more or less faction or even server wide open world activities.

 

The group finder tool in AO is also great. You get all the necessary information, you can write a short message about what you're up to (or make fun of guild mates ^^ ) and you can still choose who'll be in your group.

 

I wouldn't say instancing and group finder ruined MMORPGs, I'd rather say the way they're implemented in a special (but very wide spread) type of MMORPG causes problems.

Well designed MMORPGs have absolutely zero need for instancing. And we're not talking about a LFG tool, we're talking about the tool that picks you up and plops you in a dungeon with random people you'll never see again.

Exactly and let me add to that by making it very clear, in no way is instancing a casual practice it was specifically designed for elitest jerks to have their fill of a virtical progression ladder so they can feel good about themselves. Casual does not = forced dungeon runs as the only means of progression. Let's just clear that up right now.

  syntax42

Elite Member

Joined: 3/30/07
Posts: 1079

11/13/12 4:13:05 PM#105

To answer the OPs point, I don't think the raid/group finder was the problem.  It solved a problem of players not being able to experience those dungeons due to not being able to find groups for them at the appropriate level.  Was the the best possible solution?  Probably not, but could you come up with something better?

The issues brought up by the OP have much deeper roots than one game mechanic.  Nobody forces you to pick the fastest path, yet most tend to choose it anyways.  If dungeons were just slightly slower leveling than questing, my guess is that hardly anyone would participate in them once the quests for each dungeon are completed.  The only thing the dungeon finder did was force players to choose between world content and dungeon content.

Instead of complaining that people get to have fun with dungeons, try convincing people that repeating the same quests over and over is more fun.  That's what the open world leveling is, basically.  If you have fun with it, good for you.  Don't try to drag others down into your world by suggesting the removal of an optional feature that makes the game fun for them.

  Arglebargle

Elite Member

Joined: 6/13/07
Posts: 1047

11/13/12 4:17:31 PM#106
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Arglebargle
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by asmkm22
Originally posted by DavisFlight

Thanks for spouting your reddit memes.

We're talking about the future of the genre, with affects ALL of us. There's a couple million of us who have spent the last 8 years watching our favorite genre get destroyed.

 

 

Apparently not.  Otherwise, games like SWG and Vanguard wouldn't have been complete failures.

Er, SWG was a huge success until it was turned into a themepark game. So, point goes against you there.

And there was enough interest in Vanguard for it to sell several hundred thousand copies on the first day, despite it being the same week as Buning Crusade's launch. The problem with Vanguard was that it launched 8 months too early, not the gameplay.

The fact that you and others liked SWG doesn't mean that it wasn't tremendously broken, and that it didn't also launch 6 months to a year too early. 

Never claimed it wasn't. There's a reason I only played it here and there. I was merely pointing out how factually incorrect the other poster was when they claimed SWG was a huge failure when, for a long while, it was the second most popular MMO.

In a limited market.  With one of the premier IPs.   With (eventually) major company backing.  Etc.  Best I would say is it was perhaps the 5th most popular MMO at that time, way behind Lineage, Lineage II, Final Fantasy, and EQ.   Looks to me like it had lost a third of its subscribers  before NGE came in.  

 

 

 

 

If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  DavisFlight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2388

11/13/12 4:21:31 PM#107
Originally posted by Arglebargle
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Arglebargle
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by asmkm22
Originally posted by DavisFlight

Thanks for spouting your reddit memes.

We're talking about the future of the genre, with affects ALL of us. There's a couple million of us who have spent the last 8 years watching our favorite genre get destroyed.

 

 

Apparently not.  Otherwise, games like SWG and Vanguard wouldn't have been complete failures.

Er, SWG was a huge success until it was turned into a themepark game. So, point goes against you there.

And there was enough interest in Vanguard for it to sell several hundred thousand copies on the first day, despite it being the same week as Buning Crusade's launch. The problem with Vanguard was that it launched 8 months too early, not the gameplay.

The fact that you and others liked SWG doesn't mean that it wasn't tremendously broken, and that it didn't also launch 6 months to a year too early. 

Never claimed it wasn't. There's a reason I only played it here and there. I was merely pointing out how factually incorrect the other poster was when they claimed SWG was a huge failure when, for a long while, it was the second most popular MMO.

In a limited market.  With one of the premier IPs.   With (eventually) major company backing.  Etc.  Best I would say is it was perhaps the 5th most popular MMO at that time, way behind Lineage, Lineage II, Final Fantasy, and EQ.   Looks to me like it had lost a third of its subscribers  before NGE came in.  

We're talking about the western MMO market, which is generally what is talked about on this site. People consider WoW the biggest MMO, but compared to MMOs in Asia, it's not even remotely the top.

SWG was the second largest MMO in the western market, behind only EQ. And it was in an incredibly competetive market, a much more competetive market than today is, where every game is the same.

People clearly liked the design, or it wouldn't have done so well. The name brand alone isn't enough to save a gave, look at SWTOR.

  User Deleted
11/13/12 4:23:09 PM#108
Originally posted by DavisFlight
They were bleeding subs because of Trials of Atlantis and their /level 20 mechanic. Completely unrelated to the popularity of instances.
They thought that by appealing to casual gamers they could make up for this but all they did was destroy the core of their own game and piss off the vets while failing to attract the casuals.

Oh absolutely.  ToA was awful, no argument there.  In fact, it was so bad, and did so much harm to the community, that Mythic more or less killed the game's longevity as a result.  Catacombs was irrelavent, meaning the instances and dungeons were also irrelavent to the failure of the game.  They dug their grave long before.

 

  xAPOCx

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/25/12
Posts: 812

11/13/12 4:25:48 PM#109
Originally posted by asmkm22
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by asmkm22
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by asmkm22
Also, group finders are like gay marriages.  If you don't like it, don't get one.

That's probably the worst analogy I've seen all week. You can't see how a feature has a broad impact on the game as a whole and the way its played?

 

What I know is that games and "communities" are no different before or after a group finder is added. 

The social community in Dark Age of Camelot changed radically when they put in instanced dungeons. The game became all about soloing and people started becoming very exclusive and unfriendly, only grouping with guildies.

It's foolish to say that a game isn't impacted by a huge feature like the dungeon finder.

In DAoC I made most of my friends in dungeons. With a dungeon finder, I will never, EVER see those people again.

 

That is an issue with dungeons/instances, and not tools to help you find groups for said dungeons and instances...

i dont think so. the instances and or dungeons have nothing to do with LFG tools. its the players that are the problem, not the instances of dungeons.

 

Path of least resistence. Make something easier and it will become the norm.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19158

11/13/12 4:29:57 PM#110
Originally posted by xAPOCx
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by xAPOCx
Originally posted by Wolfenpride

I've always found it strange that LFG menu's went largely ignored in a lot of games. Not the dungeon finder which automatically puts you together, but the panel system that simply lists a flagged persons name/level/class and a comment or whatever.

I like that system better than dungeon finders personally, but again, from what i've ever been able to tell it was rarely used for some reason.

Because people are lazy. They dont want to wait. when they want a group they want to right then and there and the game should cater to them.

 

infact its the games fault for not knowing they wanted to group ten mins before the player even knew they wanted to group and start the que prossess for them automatically.

 

How dare your MMO not run these instance for you so that when you get home from your busy day, you dont already have a full set of new gear to put on.

Of course. Why would i want to wait (doing nothing) to play a game? Why would have have to be doin nothing?

Damn right .. anything that can reduce wait time is a plus in my books. I can understand this IF you doin nothing but waiting for groups.

And what does waiting have to do with running the instance for you? I don't want to wait. I want to kill something ... with a challenge if you believe that. Isn't that hard to understand? That is 99% of the games out there .. fire it up and go into combat.

http://www.callofduty.com/

http://www.streetfighter.com/

http://www.devilmaycry.com/

http://www.mortalkombatonline.com/

http://us.battle.net/en/int?r=d3

If you want a game like you say you like then theres plenty of games for you. The thing is however, there arent alot of games for me. and thats the problem.

 

I feel as if MMOs got a sickness over the years. An Infestation of console gamers came through and left a pox on the MMO world. Slowly eating away at all the things that made MMOs, Well MMOs. Now were left with

 

Yes, there are plenty of games for me. I never said it is a problem for me. I am pointing out that it is not so hard to understand why people are not patient about their entertainment, which i don't think you have a problem to recognize.

The fact is, MMO operators want a piece of that "impatient" market. If so, they have to make us wait less. It is that simple. If they want to cater only to patient players, it is their perogative, but don't be surprise if i don't play.

Oh, you do miss one thing ... not everyone want twitch FPS combat. MMO has an audience because of tactical class base combat, and there are few games like Diablo 3 to compete with them. If you want a fast co-op PVE fantasy classes based combat game, aside from Diablo 3 and TL2, there aren't many recent ones.

And whether it is a sickness is a point of view. To me, MMO is progressing into better games. And i may even play more of them.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19158

11/13/12 4:31:34 PM#111
Originally posted by xAPOCx

Path of least resistence. Make something easier and it will become the norm.

Not easier .. more convenient. There is a huge difference.

Look at Diablo 3 .. it becomes MORE popular (xfire data) AFTER 1.05 where you can choose levels of difficulties (and hence the game can be much more difficult than before).

It is not about being easy. It is about to be able to jump in and do some quick (but can be challenging) combat. That is also why LOL is so popular (although i don't play it myself because i am not a pvp fan).

  User Deleted
11/13/12 4:37:51 PM#112
Originally posted by DavisFlight
 

We're talking about the western MMO market, which is generally what is talked about on this site. People consider WoW the biggest MMO, but compared to MMOs in Asia, it's not even remotely the top.

SWG was the second largest MMO in the western market, behind only EQ. And it was in an incredibly competetive market, a much more competetive market than today is, where every game is the same.

People clearly liked the design, or it wouldn't have done so well. The name brand alone isn't enough to save a gave, look at SWTOR.

The market dynamics have changed greatly though.  Before WoW, having a game with 500k subs would have been huge.  I think only EQ1 reached that, actually.  The MMO market was much more competative, I will agree.  Mainly because different games catered to a different style of player, with all of them being sort of niche.  DAoC was for PvP.  EQ1 was for PvE.  SWG was trying to do a little of everything, but really focused on the sandbox and RP.

WoW changed that though.  It created a game that somehow catered to every one of those niche players to at least some degree.  The PvE was great.  The PvP was great.  The RP was available, although not designed with anything remotely close to what SWG did.  For RP, what it lacked in game features, it made up for in game lore and setting.  It had all of that on top of pretty decent graphics (if a bit cartoonish), very smooth gameplay and animations, and some weird special sauce that managed to combine all of the elements into something that was more than the sum of it's parts.

I dislike WoW today, but I acknowledge that it was a truly great game for it's time.  Unfortunately, if killed the MMO market in the same way that Wal*Mart kills local mom'n'pop stores.

All of these arguments about sandbox vs themepark, or group finders, or whatever, are pretty empty.  The true problem is that one MMO has dominated the market and, for financial reasons, all other developers have been trying to recreated that success using the exact same formulae, and failed.  It's unrealistic because this is a market that, before WoW, didn't need 1+M subs to do well.

I'll tell you this though.  One "feature" that *is* killing the entire genre is the F2P crap.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

11/13/12 4:38:53 PM#113

diablo 3 sucks

torchlight 2 is a much better game as its not hampered by design descisions to encourage players to use the real money auction house, youre not portalling back to town every 5 frikin minutes and it doesnt force you to play through on noob mode first.

 

  Arglebargle

Elite Member

Joined: 6/13/07
Posts: 1047

11/13/12 4:46:12 PM#114
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Arglebargle
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Arglebargle
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by asmkm22
Originally posted by DavisFlight

Thanks for spouting your reddit memes.

We're talking about the future of the genre, with affects ALL of us. There's a couple million of us who have spent the last 8 years watching our favorite genre get destroyed.

 

 

 

Never claimed it wasn't. There's a reason I only played it here and there. I was merely pointing out how factually incorrect the other poster was when they claimed SWG was a huge failure when, for a long while, it was the second most popular MMO.

In a limited market.  With one of the premier IPs.   With (eventually) major company backing.  Etc.  Best I would say is it was perhaps the 5th most popular MMO at that time, way behind Lineage, Lineage II, Final Fantasy, and EQ.   Looks to me like it had lost a third of its subscribers  before NGE came in.  

We're talking about the western MMO market, which is generally what is talked about on this site. People consider WoW the biggest MMO, but compared to MMOs in Asia, it's not even remotely the top.

SWG was the second largest MMO in the western market, behind only EQ. And it was in an incredibly competetive market, a much more competetive market than today is, where every game is the same.

People clearly liked the design, or it wouldn't have done so well. The name brand alone isn't enough to save a gave, look at SWTOR.

We need to constantly remind the  'WoW - ten million subs!' crowd about this then.  Though I agree with the 'in the west' principle.  Very different markets (though Wow is successful there as well).

 

Disagree with the competitive market.  There were fewer choices, and fewer competitors within types of settings.  Only four or five major games, and smattering of smaller ones.

 

SWTOR sold 1.7 million+ copies.   That's pretty serious.  Of course it has huge flaws as well, and some really bad design decisions, in addition to the ludicrous amount of money spent on its development - which has essentially doomed it.    SWG held serve for a little over a year, and then subs started to drop.  Seriously drop.   The Star Wars brand wasn't able to save SWG from its flaws either, and that was before NGE.

If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  Lecheese

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/13/12
Posts: 5

11/13/12 4:53:08 PM#115
Originally posted by Arglebargle
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Arglebargle
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Arglebargle
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by asmkm22
Originally posted by DavisFlight

Thanks for spouting your reddit memes.

We're talking about the future of the genre, with affects ALL of us. There's a couple million of us who have spent the last 8 years watching our favorite genre get destroyed.

 

 

 

Never claimed it wasn't. There's a reason I only played it here and there. I was merely pointing out how factually incorrect the other poster was when they claimed SWG was a huge failure when, for a long while, it was the second most popular MMO.

In a limited market.  With one of the premier IPs.   With (eventually) major company backing.  Etc.  Best I would say is it was perhaps the 5th most popular MMO at that time, way behind Lineage, Lineage II, Final Fantasy, and EQ.   Looks to me like it had lost a third of its subscribers  before NGE came in.  

We're talking about the western MMO market, which is generally what is talked about on this site. People consider WoW the biggest MMO, but compared to MMOs in Asia, it's not even remotely the top.

SWG was the second largest MMO in the western market, behind only EQ. And it was in an incredibly competetive market, a much more competetive market than today is, where every game is the same.

People clearly liked the design, or it wouldn't have done so well. The name brand alone isn't enough to save a gave, look at SWTOR.

We need to constantly remind the  'WoW - ten million subs!' crowd about this then.  Though I agree with the 'in the west' principle.  Very different markets (though Wow is successful there as well).

 

Disagree with the competitive market.  There were fewer choices, and fewer competitors within types of settings.  Only four or five major games, and smattering of smaller ones.

 

Only four or five major games?

Right now we have only one major game, by most standards.

Guess the old times were a bit more competive then, no?

 

And no, I acknowledge that WoW is a well polished game, but I'd say it is fundamentally flawed in several ways, and objectively isn't very good.

  Arglebargle

Elite Member

Joined: 6/13/07
Posts: 1047

11/13/12 5:10:02 PM#116
Originally posted by Lecheese
Originally posted by Arglebargle
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Arglebargle
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Arglebargle
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by asmkm22
Originally posted by DavisFlight

Thanks for spouting your reddit memes.

We're talking about the future of the genre, with affects ALL of us. There's a couple million of us who have spent the last 8 years watching our favorite genre get destroyed.

 

 

 

Never claimed it wasn't. There's a reason I only played it here and there. I was merely pointing out how factually incorrect the other poster was when they claimed SWG was a huge failure when, for a long while, it was the second most popular MMO.

In a limited market.  With one of the premier IPs.   With (eventually) major company backing.  Etc.  Best I would say is it was perhaps the 5th most popular MMO at that time, way behind Lineage, Lineage II, Final Fantasy, and EQ.   Looks to me like it had lost a third of its subscribers  before NGE came in.  

We're talking about the western MMO market, which is generally what is talked about on this site. People consider WoW the biggest MMO, but compared to MMOs in Asia, it's not even remotely the top.

SWG was the second largest MMO in the western market, behind only EQ. And it was in an incredibly competetive market, a much more competetive market than today is, where every game is the same.

People clearly liked the design, or it wouldn't have done so well. The name brand alone isn't enough to save a gave, look at SWTOR.

We need to constantly remind the  'WoW - ten million subs!' crowd about this then.  Though I agree with the 'in the west' principle.  Very different markets (though Wow is successful there as well).

 

Disagree with the competitive market.  There were fewer choices, and fewer competitors within types of settings.  Only four or five major games, and smattering of smaller ones.

 

Only four or five major games?

Right now we have only one major game, by most standards.

Guess the old times were a bit more competive then, no?

 

And no, I acknowledge that WoW is a well polished game, but I'd say it is fundamentally flawed in several ways, and objectively isn't very good.

Na, we have many major games, but only one Giant Elephant Gorilla in the house.   No argument on the WoW thing.  It never appealed to me, in the week I played, and everything I hear about it since then gives me no interest in re-visiting.

If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  Lecheese

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/13/12
Posts: 5

11/13/12 5:14:45 PM#117
Originally posted by Arglebargle
Originally posted by Lecheese
Originally posted by Arglebargle
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Arglebargle
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Arglebargle
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by asmkm22
Originally posted by DavisFlight

Thanks for spouting your reddit memes.

We're talking about the future of the genre, with affects ALL of us. There's a couple million of us who have spent the last 8 years watching our favorite genre get destroyed.

 

 

 

Never claimed it wasn't. There's a reason I only played it here and there. I was merely pointing out how factually incorrect the other poster was when they claimed SWG was a huge failure when, for a long while, it was the second most popular MMO.

In a limited market.  With one of the premier IPs.   With (eventually) major company backing.  Etc.  Best I would say is it was perhaps the 5th most popular MMO at that time, way behind Lineage, Lineage II, Final Fantasy, and EQ.   Looks to me like it had lost a third of its subscribers  before NGE came in.  

We're talking about the western MMO market, which is generally what is talked about on this site. People consider WoW the biggest MMO, but compared to MMOs in Asia, it's not even remotely the top.

SWG was the second largest MMO in the western market, behind only EQ. And it was in an incredibly competetive market, a much more competetive market than today is, where every game is the same.

People clearly liked the design, or it wouldn't have done so well. The name brand alone isn't enough to save a gave, look at SWTOR.

We need to constantly remind the  'WoW - ten million subs!' crowd about this then.  Though I agree with the 'in the west' principle.  Very different markets (though Wow is successful there as well).

 

Disagree with the competitive market.  There were fewer choices, and fewer competitors within types of settings.  Only four or five major games, and smattering of smaller ones.

 

Only four or five major games?

Right now we have only one major game, by most standards.

Guess the old times were a bit more competive then, no?

 

And no, I acknowledge that WoW is a well polished game, but I'd say it is fundamentally flawed in several ways, and objectively isn't very good.

Na, we have many major games, but only one Giant Elephant Gorilla in the house.   No argument on the WoW thing.  It never appealed to me, in the week I played, and everything I hear about it since then gives me no interest in re-visiting.

Most of the modern "major games" have far fewer subs than the old "major games" despite the market being a lot smaller. And if WoW is an outlier, then why does everyone say the market is in themeparks if WoW is the only successful one?

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19158

11/13/12 5:19:18 PM#118
Originally posted by Deleted User
 

Most of the modern "major games" have far fewer subs than the old "major games" despite the market being a lot smaller. And if WoW is an outlier, then why does everyone say the market is in themeparks if WoW is the only successful one?

subs is so yesterday. Now a lot of them are f2p or just a box game.

Even TOR sold >2M copies. Which old games sold 2M, and have 1.7M sub for a while?

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

11/13/12 5:19:26 PM#119
Gw2 is fairly successful and that's a themepark.
  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4689

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

11/13/12 5:20:31 PM#120
Originally posted by Deleted User
Originally posted by Arglebargle
Originally posted by Lecheese
Originally posted by Arglebargle
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Arglebargle
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Arglebargle
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by asmkm22
Originally posted by DavisFlight

Thanks for spouting your reddit memes.

We're talking about the future of the genre, with affects ALL of us. There's a couple million of us who have spent the last 8 years watching our favorite genre get destroyed.

 

 

 

Never claimed it wasn't. There's a reason I only played it here and there. I was merely pointing out how factually incorrect the other poster was when they claimed SWG was a huge failure when, for a long while, it was the second most popular MMO.

In a limited market.  With one of the premier IPs.   With (eventually) major company backing.  Etc.  Best I would say is it was perhaps the 5th most popular MMO at that time, way behind Lineage, Lineage II, Final Fantasy, and EQ.   Looks to me like it had lost a third of its subscribers  before NGE came in.  

We're talking about the western MMO market, which is generally what is talked about on this site. People consider WoW the biggest MMO, but compared to MMOs in Asia, it's not even remotely the top.

SWG was the second largest MMO in the western market, behind only EQ. And it was in an incredibly competetive market, a much more competetive market than today is, where every game is the same.

People clearly liked the design, or it wouldn't have done so well. The name brand alone isn't enough to save a gave, look at SWTOR.

We need to constantly remind the  'WoW - ten million subs!' crowd about this then.  Though I agree with the 'in the west' principle.  Very different markets (though Wow is successful there as well).

 

Disagree with the competitive market.  There were fewer choices, and fewer competitors within types of settings.  Only four or five major games, and smattering of smaller ones.

 

Only four or five major games?

Right now we have only one major game, by most standards.

Guess the old times were a bit more competive then, no?

 

And no, I acknowledge that WoW is a well polished game, but I'd say it is fundamentally flawed in several ways, and objectively isn't very good.

Na, we have many major games, but only one Giant Elephant Gorilla in the house.   No argument on the WoW thing.  It never appealed to me, in the week I played, and everything I hear about it since then gives me no interest in re-visiting.

Most of the modern "major games" have far fewer subs than the old "major games" despite the market being a lot smaller. And if WoW is an outlier, then why does everyone say the market is in themeparks if WoW is the only successful one?

I would say the opposite.  Most of the major games today have the same or more subs than most of the old major games.  EQ was the big one at 450k.  The others were had an intial of 100-300k and dropped to 50-150k.  Most games today start at 600k-2 million and drop to 50k-300k.

edit - they say the market is in themepark because the themeparks start out much much higher and drop to the same numbers as old games then stabilized.  Whereas sandboxes (so far) have started out much worse and either not grown at all or grown to the same numbers then stabilized.

From a finances pov I would rather start out with 1 million and stabilize at 100k, then start out with 5k and stabilize at 100k.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

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