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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » RUINED MMOPRG's: Raid/Group Finder

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249 posts found
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19537

11/13/12 1:34:41 PM#61
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Don't instance anything!

Instanced pvp is even worse.

Mind I think in the future we will get instanced rp, instanced crafting and I.stances exploring with a lobby where you can show off your phatlewt. Probably with Titan.

Instanced everything. Instanced pvp is even better. Just look at LOL ... nothing but instanced pvp and a huge success.

Yeh .. that is the future i am looking towards to. Diablo 3 is already like that. Titan may also be.

  theAsna

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/16/09
Posts: 303

11/13/12 1:35:45 PM#62
It's not so much the group finder itself which is the issue. Rather it's a combination of players' expectations, dungeon design and the group finder.

1) Players expectation
Some players simply do the dungeons as a means to get gear. Others (me included) do them because they enforce a need for cooperation and teamwork (if done at appropriate levels, with a certain gear level but not outgearing content, with certain group setups). In certain games some players use dungeons to maximise their xp/min. Then there is this "endgame mentality" some players show. Anything below level cap would be meaningless and simply a tedious chore.
There are lots of motivations and ways to do dungeons. So the expecations vary a lot depending on a player.

2) Dungeon design
You'll find dungeons that are merely a single hallway with a set number of encounters. By the time you reach the end of the hallway you're finished. It's very hard to get lost in there. The opposite exists as well. Maze-like dungeons where you can get lost. The former example is quite the dominant dungeon style (probably to avoid frustrating players).
The time required to finish a dungeon has been tweaked to be manageable within an hour or less. It gets more and more similar to fastfood. Easy to consume, but you can't satisfy your hunger for some challenge (see issue #1).

3) Group Finder
The automatic group finder is rather a quick fix. Players don't want to spend time to get a group going. Rather they want to see this aspect being delegated to a tool while they can do something else (e.g. continue questing). But a tool has limitations. It will only try to match in-game characters to set up a party. The tools can't determine if the players have similar playstyles, nor how the players will get along. At this point we have made a full circle and are back at issue 1) from above.
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19537

11/13/12 1:38:17 PM#63
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Nari

Instead of playing mmos, why not just play diablo coop when you want pve and lol when you want pvp. You can cut out all the boring leveling and exploring bits then.

I do. I mostly play D3 now and probably will move to Marvel Heroes (whch is probaly not a "proper") when it is out.

 

  xAPOCx

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/25/12
Posts: 887

11/13/12 1:40:32 PM#64
Originally posted by Rossboss

Players ruined MMORPGs. Not only do they exploit issues and bugs instead of reporting them, but they take advantage of these conveniences like LF(G/R). It's not that these things are bad, it's that the players rely too heavily on someone else to do their work for them instead of forming relationships with players to have the same end result. The players wanted over-simplified and that's what they got.

Luckily, the game I play most of the time, Runes of Magic, doesn't cling to this LFG/R mentality. We infact have that function in the game but it is completely neglected by the players.

I can agree with this. Perhaps the LFG tool needs to be looked at and redone.

 

Was thinking about perhaps having group postings in the towns these instances or open dungeons are in. You want to go to a group dungeon and dont have a group? go to the boards and look to see if theres a group looking for another to go. If you dont see any groups looking for that dungeon then you can add your name to the list of players that want this instance.

 

When a group comes through that are short someone for that place they themselves can check the boards to see if there are any people looking for said dungeon.

 

Now the boards can do any number of things. could list your lvl and class. If your online or offline. perhaps it would let you wright something along the lines of say a item your after or a quest mob that you have to kill in said dungeon.

 

The point is lfg tool could be used better then just click/whoosh/group/leave/click/whoosh/proup/leave.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19537

11/13/12 1:42:33 PM#65
Originally posted by theAsna
It's not so much the group finder itself which is the issue. Rather it's a combination of players' expectations, dungeon design and the group finder.


2) Dungeon design
You'll find dungeons that are merely a single hallway with a set number of encounters. By the time you reach the end of the hallway you're finished. It's very hard to get lost in there. The opposite exists as well. Maze-like dungeons where you can get lost. The former example is quite the dominant dungeon style (probably to avoid frustrating players).
The time required to finish a dungeon has been tweaked to be manageable within an hour or less. It gets more and more similar to fastfood. Easy to consume, but you can't satisfy your hunger for some challenge (see issue #1).
What does challenge has to do with time & simple lay-out? Back in CATA, h dungeons are harder and people complain. Later, they are easy. Same short dungeons with simple layout, and they can be hard or easy depending on how the encounters are designed.
I do like short dungeons. I don't want 3 hours gaming session that i cannot go eat a snack. 30 min to 1 hour is good. And i play dungeons to kill stuff. Make combat challenging (or let me set the difficulty). I don't want to run a maze like a rat. In fact, Blizz simplified old dungeon layout because of this.

3) Group Finder
The automatic group finder is rather a quick fix. Players don't want to spend time to get a group going. Rather they want it delegated to a tool while they can do something else (e.g. continue questing). But a tool has limitations. It will only try to match in-game characters to set up a party. The tools can't determine if the players have similar playstyles, nor how the players will get along. At this point we have made a full circle and are back at issue 1) from above.
Well, you can always quit if you don't like your group. So group finder is pretty efficient that way. You can also add them as friends if you like them.

 

  xAPOCx

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/25/12
Posts: 887

11/13/12 1:44:27 PM#66
Originally posted by maji

The thing is convenient, but I agree.

Think of the early days of WoW. To get into a dungeon, you had to assemble a group, manually, by asking people in your clan, that you meet at random, in the area chat, or in a city. That already made you get to know people in the game. Then you'd travel there together. If, for example, you'd get to that one castle near the undead starting area, you'd had a long and dangerous way to travel there. But it was fun. And when you finally arrived, everyone was motivated to get through the dungeon, and not annoy anyone, since, if you fail, none of you would get quickly another chance.

Today? Use the dungeon finder, wait some, start killing things, leave. Talking? Pffff, why? Travelling? Naaah. Who cares if the game looks empty, because people teleport constantly anyway. Who cares if it doesn't make any sense, that you can teleport from one point to another, from early levels on, just like that. Introduction into a dungeon by solo player quests? Naaaah, who cares what the dungeon is about.

Yes, the dungeon finder is convenient. But it killed many of the social aspects, lots of the atmosphere and lots of immersion.

  User Deleted
11/13/12 1:53:46 PM#67

I've always found it strange that LFG menu's went largely ignored in a lot of games. Not the dungeon finder which automatically puts you together, but the panel system that simply lists a flagged persons name/level/class and a comment or whatever.

I like that system better than dungeon finders personally, but again, from what i've ever been able to tell it was rarely used for some reason.

  xAPOCx

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/25/12
Posts: 887

11/13/12 1:57:53 PM#68
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by xAPOCx
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Arcondo87

 

Then ppl say well i dont have time to spamm LFG in a city. OR I only have 1hr a day to play!

To them i say this...MMORPG games arnt for you go play FPS, if you are looking for quick fast gameplay.

 

And i say to you .. i vote with my wallet. Apparently devs noticed lots of gamers don't want to commit all the evenings to playing MMOs, and would love to play 1 hr here and there.

Apparently modern MMOs *are* for players with little time, since LFD is more or less a standard feature now.

 

The Real House Wives of XXXXXXXXXX is a very popluar show watched by millions right?

Its some of the worst drivle imaginable.

So just because something is popular, doesent make it good.

And Avenger made >1.5B. So just because something is popular, doesn't make it bad.

so it works both ways. in the end its what your personal preference is. Mine just so hapens to NOT like LFG.

I also dont like being ported of to said instance. an empty world is just that, empty ( Jersey Shore )

I also dont like the AH. ( Bridezillas )

I aso hate 1 click crafting. ( Jerry Springer )

I aso hate instanced pvp. ( Honey Boo Boo )

See where im goin with this.

 

 

  xAPOCx

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/25/12
Posts: 887

11/13/12 2:00:27 PM#69
Originally posted by Wolfenpride

I've always found it strange that LFG menu's went largely ignored in a lot of games. Not the dungeon finder which automatically puts you together, but the panel system that simply lists a flagged persons name/level/class and a comment or whatever.

I like that system better than dungeon finders personally, but again, from what i've ever been able to tell it was rarely used for some reason.

Because people are lazy. They dont want to wait. when they want a group they want to right then and there and the game should cater to them.

 

infact its the games fault for not knowing they wanted to group ten mins before the player even knew they wanted to group and start the que prossess for them automatically.

 

How dare your MMO not run these instance for you so that when you get home from your busy day, you dont already have a full set of new gear to put on.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

11/13/12 2:03:51 PM#70
The sooner Titan or some other game comes out with a series of auto grouped mini games and a lobby but no actual world, the better.

Then the rest of us can get on with playing a real mmorpg
  xAPOCx

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/25/12
Posts: 887

11/13/12 2:06:00 PM#71
Originally posted by ShakyMo
The sooner Titan or some other game comes out with a series of auto grouped mini games and a lobby but no actual world, the better.

Then the rest of us can get on with playing a real mmorpg

lol it cant come fast enough.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19537

11/13/12 2:10:46 PM#72
Originally posted by xAPOCx
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by xAPOCx
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Arcondo87

 

Then ppl say well i dont have time to spamm LFG in a city. OR I only have 1hr a day to play!

To them i say this...MMORPG games arnt for you go play FPS, if you are looking for quick fast gameplay.

 

And i say to you .. i vote with my wallet. Apparently devs noticed lots of gamers don't want to commit all the evenings to playing MMOs, and would love to play 1 hr here and there.

Apparently modern MMOs *are* for players with little time, since LFD is more or less a standard feature now.

 

The Real House Wives of XXXXXXXXXX is a very popluar show watched by millions right?

Its some of the worst drivle imaginable.

So just because something is popular, doesent make it good.

And Avenger made >1.5B. So just because something is popular, doesn't make it bad.

so it works both ways. in the end its what your personal preference is. Mine just so hapens to NOT like LFG.

I also dont like being ported of to said instance. an empty world is just that, empty ( Jersey Shore )

I also dont like the AH. ( Bridezillas )

I aso hate 1 click crafting. ( Jerry Springer )

I aso hate instanced pvp. ( Honey Boo Boo )

See where im goin with this.

 

 

Exactly. It is all personal preferences.

i like being ported to said instances ... after the first time i walk there.

i like AH

i like 1 click crafting .. in fact, crafting can be optional.

i also like instanced pvp, if there is any pvp at all.

See where im going with this.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19537

11/13/12 2:13:35 PM#73
Originally posted by xAPOCx
Originally posted by Wolfenpride

I've always found it strange that LFG menu's went largely ignored in a lot of games. Not the dungeon finder which automatically puts you together, but the panel system that simply lists a flagged persons name/level/class and a comment or whatever.

I like that system better than dungeon finders personally, but again, from what i've ever been able to tell it was rarely used for some reason.

Because people are lazy. They dont want to wait. when they want a group they want to right then and there and the game should cater to them.

 

infact its the games fault for not knowing they wanted to group ten mins before the player even knew they wanted to group and start the que prossess for them automatically.

 

How dare your MMO not run these instance for you so that when you get home from your busy day, you dont already have a full set of new gear to put on.

Of course. Why would i want to wait (doing nothing) to play a game?

Damn right .. anything that can reduce wait time is a plus in my books.

And what does waiting have to do with running the instance for you? I don't want to wait. I want to kill something ... with a challenge if you believe that. Isn't that hard to understand? That is 99% of the games out there .. fire it up and go into combat.

  mistmaker

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/11/12
Posts: 222

11/13/12 2:14:55 PM#74

i dont think that some kind of a group finding help tool is bad. better than spamming the chat

 

there are other things which ruin the social aspect. in the end its the mass of gamers themselves...

  defector1968

Novice Member

Joined: 6/16/10
Posts: 400

Real Animal lovers are ONLY the vegetarians

11/13/12 2:25:32 PM#75
Originally posted by fenistil
Originally posted by defector1968

i dont understand u ppl

when a game dont have instanced quests u QQ for some ppl steal your NPC / loot / too crowdy that cant finish the quest

and now here u say that the instanced quest is a game break

plz decide

Huh? KInda obvious it is diffrent people who whine about it.

in many games i saw this happend

example in swotr that ppl QQ for the black hole area for dailies for all the quests need to kill specific number of npcs and specific boxes that had response time, every day ppl scream in chat and i personally get some hate tells that i was the one that stole their npc, that happend every freaking day

also in belsavis for the rattatataki leaders daily quest. players in each spawn npc waiting to kill them, groups made and spread out to the npcs to finish them faster.

 

the example was for the swtor cuz its fresh and i remember each detail

same in older games i played

 

edit: as for the group finder, nobody force u to use it. dont like it dont use it. simple as that.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19537

11/13/12 2:31:24 PM#76
Originally posted by mistmaker

i dont think that some kind of a group finding help tool is bad. better than spamming the chat

 

there are other things which ruin the social aspect. in the end its the mass of gamers themselves...

I think people here needs to see the facts. A lot of people don't play games for the social aspects. They play online games to fight someone (pvp), or a co-op group to kill stuff.

And MMO is adapting to this market. Nothing wrong with trying to satisfy your customers.

 

  User Deleted
11/13/12 2:39:45 PM#77
Originally posted by nariusseldon

I think people here needs to see the facts. A lot of people don't play games for the social aspects. They play online games to fight someone (pvp), or a co-op group to kill stuff.

And MMO is adapting to this market. Nothing wrong with trying to satisfy your customers.

 

Cool facts? how there can be any kind of Player Vs Player action if theres no social aspects ?

Sounds something like where people tries to kill other peoples ghosts,something like GW2 is right now,killing unnamed people who acts just like NPCs.

And what i have heard ,people are not really happy with that.

 

  xAPOCx

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/25/12
Posts: 887

11/13/12 2:53:03 PM#78
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by xAPOCx
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by xAPOCx
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Arcondo87

 

Then ppl say well i dont have time to spamm LFG in a city. OR I only have 1hr a day to play!

To them i say this...MMORPG games arnt for you go play FPS, if you are looking for quick fast gameplay.

 

And i say to you .. i vote with my wallet. Apparently devs noticed lots of gamers don't want to commit all the evenings to playing MMOs, and would love to play 1 hr here and there.

Apparently modern MMOs *are* for players with little time, since LFD is more or less a standard feature now.

 

The Real House Wives of XXXXXXXXXX is a very popluar show watched by millions right?

Its some of the worst drivle imaginable.

So just because something is popular, doesent make it good.

And Avenger made >1.5B. So just because something is popular, doesn't make it bad.

so it works both ways. in the end its what your personal preference is. Mine just so hapens to NOT like LFG.

I also dont like being ported of to said instance. an empty world is just that, empty ( Jersey Shore )

I also dont like the AH. ( Bridezillas )

I aso hate 1 click crafting. ( Jerry Springer )

I aso hate instanced pvp. ( Honey Boo Boo )

See where im goin with this.

 

 

Exactly. It is all personal preferences.

i like being ported to said instances ... after the first time i walk there.

i like AH

i like 1 click crafting .. in fact, crafting can be optional.

i also like instanced pvp, if there is any pvp at all.

See where im going with this.

I see where your goin with this. You like Awfull TV lol

  User Deleted
11/13/12 2:53:20 PM#79

I like group finders.  At least, I like being able to find groups, which is something that gets rediculously difficult to do in a lot of games that don't have them.  Yeah it's fine if you have several friends that you regularly play with, but for everyone else, finding groups generally means spamming a chat channel over and over until you give up or finally get one.

It's even worse with games like SWtOR where players are so spread out that the only reliable zone to look for groups is fleet station... which means you can't look for a group while also question.  Which means you end up doing the very the OP criticizes.

If game dev's don't want to have group finders, then they had better give players some other tool to find groups on their own.  Or design content that doesn't require groups.

 

I'm also positive that most people who complain about group finding features have actually never been negatively affected by them.  They just don't want them on principle because "the ruin communities" or other random reason without any data to back it up.

  SirFubar

Novice Member

Joined: 7/21/11
Posts: 403

11/13/12 2:54:52 PM#80
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by maplestone
If you are fretting about how other people are playing an MMO, you're going to have a bad time.

Thanks for spouting your reddit memes.

We're talking about the future of the genre, with affects ALL of us.There's a couple million of us who have spent the last 8 years watching our favorite genre get destroyed.

IMHO, only the minority of players aren't satisfied with the genre atm. Saying there's a couple million is just plain false. No MMO will please everyone, everyone have different taste. It's not because there's a thousand people that doesn't love certain features that there isn't a million who love it. The genre ain't destroyed, it just follow the players. So the minority comes here and talk about how the genre is getting destroyed and how bad MMO's are today when the majority just play the game they love. The days of hardcore MMO (just like nearly every other game genre) are long gone. Sure there is some people who still love them, but they are the minority and that's exactly why you aren't seeing a lot of those games anymore. It's a small niche market that is most risky than profitable.

If only people would wake up and stop buying every single MMO that is released, that is CLEARLY aren't made for them, and then hop on the next one every single time, maybe the genre would go foward instead of being stale. But no, I bet even the minority of MMO players who can't find their MMO are doing this kind of stuff and they love to bash every MMO they played for no particular reason. Like people saying the good old days of UO, DAoC, EQ and the likes, I mean, if you guys loved those games so much and hate the new ones as much, why bother keep trying MMO that you surely won't like and instead go back to the games you loved so much? I bet these games stil have enough players still playing it so you could have fun. I don't understand why you would leave a game you love.

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