Sitting around the PoK looking for members or the same with trade chat was never fun. It was just tedious and boring. I never logged into any game, as far back as EQ, and said "man, I can't wait to sit and look for a group so I can play the game". Now developers offer me the option of logging into the game, playing said game, and having fun right from the bat. It's not that I'm lazy; on the contrary, I don't like wasting my time doing tedious things for the sake of self-validation.

As for 'forming relationships', those don't always occur from forming groups. If anything, that task of group tediousness often brings out the worst in people as well. Yes, dungeon/raid finders also bring that out. We have people that act like a dick because they're (probably) never going to see you again. But that same crap happened with looking for groups the old fashioned way, except you saw it over the course of a longer period. Over my times in MMOs, I've met some great people and future-guildmates just from being thrown together in an instant group. Strike up a chat with people you meet randomly, and you might be able to meet some friends. Being able to be in groups more often gives you more chances at forming relationships, if anything.

Back in the early days, we didn't have many options concerning MMOs. We played MMOs because we wanted to play them over or in addition to console games, FPS, RTS, etc. The slowness was just something that was inherent to them and people played it that way because there weren't other options. Now, enough people engage in the genre to encourage a variety of choices that eliminate some of the tediousness and focus on what people actually want to play. If you want the slow, forced-grouping communities, go to them. Don't get offended when games appear offering options that other people are looking for.

This genre is not dying or going 'downhill' by any means. It's just changing and expanding, and that type of thing can be hard to accept when it happens to anything.

yea totaly ruined, only 11 million subs on wow. sooooo ruined ^^

well, if you wonder why play outside lfr, the reason could be "because you like a challenge".

lfr is the first step towards raiding. very easy compared to the real challenges.

also, lfr is quite easy compared to challenge mode.

again, if you like it easy, stick to random, no big deal

The thing is convenient, but I agree.

Think of the early days of WoW. To get into a dungeon, you had to assemble a group, manually, by asking people in your clan, that you meet at random, in the area chat, or in a city. That already made you get to know people in the game. Then you'd travel there together. If, for example, you'd get to that one castle near the undead starting area, you'd had a long and dangerous way to travel there. But it was fun. And when you finally arrived, everyone was motivated to get through the dungeon, and not annoy anyone, since, if you fail, none of you would get quickly another chance.

Today? Use the dungeon finder, wait some, start killing things, leave. Talking? Pffff, why? Travelling? Naaah. Who cares if the game looks empty, because people teleport constantly anyway. Who cares if it doesn't make any sense, that you can teleport from one point to another, from early levels on, just like that. Introduction into a dungeon by solo player quests? Naaaah, who cares what the dungeon is about.

Yes, the dungeon finder is convenient. But it killed many of the social aspects, lots of the atmosphere and lots of immersion.

Originally posted by maji

The thing is convenient, but I agree.

Think of the early days of WoW. To get into a dungeon, you had to assemble a group, manually, by asking people in your clan, that you meet at random, in the area chat, or in a city. That already made you get to know people in the game. Then you'd travel there together. If, for example, you'd get to that one castle near the undead starting area, you'd had a long and dangerous way to travel there. But it was fun. And when you finally arrived, everyone was motivated to get through the dungeon, and not annoy anyone, since, if you fail, none of you would get quickly another chance.

Today? Use the dungeon finder, wait some, start killing things, leave. Talking? Pffff, why? Travelling? Naaah. Who cares if the game looks empty, because people teleport constantly anyway. Who cares if it doesn't make any sense, that you can teleport from one point to another, from early levels on, just like that. Introduction into a dungeon by solo player quests? Naaaah, who cares what the dungeon is about.

Yes, the dungeon finder is convenient. But it killed many of the social aspects, lots of the atmosphere and lots of immersion.

totally 100% agree with this

Originally posted by maji

The thing is convenient, but I agree.

Think of the early days of WoW. To get into a dungeon, you had to assemble a group, manually, by asking people in your clan, that you meet at random, in the area chat, or in a city. That already made you get to know people in the game. Then you'd travel there together. If, for example, you'd get to that one castle near the undead starting area, you'd had a long and dangerous way to travel there. But it was fun. And when you finally arrived, everyone was motivated to get through the dungeon, and not annoy anyone, since, if you fail, none of you would get quickly another chance.

Today? Use the dungeon finder, wait some, start killing things, leave. Talking? Pffff, why? Travelling? Naaah. Who cares if the game looks empty, because people teleport constantly anyway. Who cares if it doesn't make any sense, that you can teleport from one point to another, from early levels on, just like that. Introduction into a dungeon by solo player quests? Naaaah, who cares what the dungeon is about.

Yes, the dungeon finder is convenient. But it killed many of the social aspects, lots of the atmosphere and lots of immersion.

Yeah agreed.  

Impact that dungeon finders make on mmorpg (and changes that follow later) especially cross-server one is that it streamlined game into instance gameplay and thus gameplay start to mirror gameplay of lobby multiplayer matchmaking games and not mmorpg gameplay.    I have tonnes of games like this and I don't choose mmorpg's because I want another game like that.

Originally posted by fenistil

 

Yeah agreed.  

Impact that dungeon finders make on mmorpg (and changes that follow later) especially cross-server one is that it streamlined game into instance gameplay and thus gameplay start to mirror gameplay of lobby multiplayer matchmaking games and not mmorpg gameplay.    I have tonnes of games like this and I don't choose mmorpg's because I want another game like that.

Yes, MMOs are turning into lobby-based co-op games. Many are playing MMOs like that already. If that is the playstyle people like, i do not see any reason not to go that direction.

And actually there aren't tons of games like that. Probably fewer than MMOs. Recent online ARPG that i can count: D3, TL2, Borderlands, and none has as much content as MMOs. There is no super hero based online lobby co-op games (except the upcoming Marvel Heroes, which is also a MMO). There is no recent online ARPG.

That is why many are playing MMOs as online ARPGs .. because of the setting ... because of the mechanics. D3, the most successful online ARPG,which sold 10M, only has 5 classes. What if i want to play a paladin in an online ARPG? The closest is a MMO like WOW.

Thus, i choose MMOs as an alternative to online ARPG. The closest a MMO to an online ARPG, the better.

Meh, the convienience of the Dungeon finder is here to stay and you will just have to find some other way of finding your desired social interaction.

Honestly this whole conversation makes me think of people wanting to risk the dangers of the Oregon Trail rather then take a plane to Portland,OR.

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Ok, you're allowed to have that opinion, but I STRONGLY disagree. It is one of the worst, and most abused features in modern MMOs. It is a crutch for bad game design, and a way out for lazy developers.

Perhaps it would help if we better understood what exactly you are losing with this feature?  Why does it bother you?  Is this simply a matter of dogma for you, or is there some element of gameplay you enjoy that somehow is interfered with when other people choose to use dungeon finder?

Originally posted by Edeus

Meh, the convienience of the Dungeon finder is here to stay and you will just have to find some other way of finding your desired social interaction.

 

Honestly this whole conversation makes me think of people wanting to risk the dangers of the Oregon Trail rather then take a plane to Portland,OR.

I don't see a problem with socialization. If you want, you can always chat in general channel or with your guildies. I doubt most players play a game to be social.

Personally, i don't play games to chat.

Originally posted by ZigZags
OP, I agree wholeheartedly. I think this feeling only applies to some of us core veterans. People who were playing MMOs since the mid-late 90s. The new generation coming up in gaming is more insta reward insta gratification oriented and dont want to work too hard towards a goal.

Yeah .. and not even all the veterans. I started MMOs BEFORE UO (playign a precursor MMO called Kingdom of Drakkar). I did some hard mode raiding with a guild in WOW a year or so ago. Too much work.

I really don't think i want to keep a schedule and  commit to hours every week just to enjoy a game. The modern way is much better. Go in and do a dungeon in 30 min. If i want to work hard, i do real work. Games are for relaxation.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by fenistil

 

Yeah agreed.  

Impact that dungeon finders make on mmorpg (and changes that follow later) especially cross-server one is that it streamlined game into instance gameplay and thus gameplay start to mirror gameplay of lobby multiplayer matchmaking games and not mmorpg gameplay.    I have tonnes of games like this and I don't choose mmorpg's because I want another game like that.

Yes, MMOs are turning into lobby-based co-op games. Many are playing MMOs like that already. If that is the playstyle people like, i do not see any reason not to go that direction.

And actually there aren't tons of games like that. Probably fewer than MMOs. Recent online ARPG that i can count: D3, TL2, Borderlands, and none has as much content as MMOs. There is no super hero based online lobby co-op games (except the upcoming Marvel Heroes, which is also a MMO). There is no recent online ARPG.

That is why many are playing MMOs as online ARPGs .. because of the setting ... because of the mechanics. D3, the most successful online ARPG,which sold 10M, only has 5 classes. What if i want to play a paladin in an online ARPG? The closest is a MMO like WOW.

Thus, i choose MMOs as an alternative to online ARPG. The closest a MMO to an online ARPG, the better.

There is tons of lobby matchmaking games.   DOTA's, all mutliplayer FPS, all multiplayer RTS, all MOBA games (like WoT or Forge) most hack & slash games, rising number of corpg's and other variants.

There is less hack & slash lobby games than there is mmorpg's - that's right but I was not talking about h&s online games only.  There are plenty of players playing mmorpg's as team / co-op pvp games rather than co-op PvE ones you seem to prefer.    Anyway - there is increasing number of hack & slash / action lobby games coming soon. Marvel Heroes and PoE coming very soon. LineAge Eternal and possibly Grim Dawn in more distant future. There is also Vindictus, GW1, DDO and 2 similar to it games with names I cannot remember now. 

There is also few hack & slash games that are on kickstarter + there is big number of f2p korean / chinese hack & slash or action rpg or dungeon crawlers being made also and there is big chance some of them will be imported to west.

I am ALL for more various lobby games being made.   There is already big part of pvp lobby games that do have incredible success, but in it's shadow there is also rising number of pve lobby games.

I hope that more of them will being made because then big part of this significant number of people will go play games like that instead of mmorpg's.  This will result in smaller popularity of mmorpg's which will result with smaller amount of mmorpg's (and bigger amount of various lobby games) and smaller budgets, but at same time those which will remain will have to cater more to mmo, rpg and 'world' part of their design.

"Marvel Heroes that is also an MMO".  <--  It might be an MMO (or might not), but it does not bother me.  It is clearly marketted as hack & slash game in mmo-lite / big multiplayer setting. Devs are talking about Diablo in every second dev video.

I do care about mmorpg's and talk about mmorpg's specifically. Other type of mmo's and some kind of mmo-lite or various hybrids does not interest - anything can happen to games like this. I don't care.  I am glad that they other type of mmo's and other types of online games are being made.  It will mean that many people that are playing mmorpg's but are interested in lobby gameplay only or mainly will be able to choose other types of games more suited for their tastes.

CoH, in my opinion, had the best group finding system ever created.

But the argument always gets tangled up with WoW on one end and Sandboxes on the other.

Someone's got to remember the other alternatives to Black or White, once in a while.

Originally posted by fenistil

 

There is tons of lobby matchmaking games.   DOTA's, all mutliplayer FPS, all multiplayer RTS, all MOBA games (like WoT or Forge) most hack & slash games, rising number of corpg's and other variants.

That is right. There are tons of pvp lobby games. Personally i like pve more .. but i am not ignoring this huge pheonomenon. Look at LOL .. it has more active players than WOW. I also tried WOT .. it is kind of fun too.

There is less hack & slash lobby games than there is mmorpg's - that's right but I was not talking about h&s online games only.  There are plenty of players playing mmorpg's as team / co-op pvp games rather than co-op PvE ones you seem to prefer.    Anyway - there is increasing number of hack & slash / action lobby games coming soon. Marvel Heroes and PoE coming very soon. LineAge Eternal and possibly Grim Dawn in more distant future. There is also Vindictus, GW1, DDO and 2 similar to it games with names I cannot remember now. 

I am mostly waiting for Marvel Heroes. PoE does not look polish to me. I stil have TL2 to play. Grim Dawn looks pretty interesting. So may be i shouldn't complain that much.

There is also few hack & slash games that are on kickstarter + there is big number of f2p korean / chinese hack & slash or action rpg or dungeon crawlers being made also and there is big chance some of them will be imported to west.

I don't believe in kickstarter. Chinese action RPG? Do you have some links? I can read/write chinese and they can be fun, if in the right setting.

 I am ALL for more various lobby games being made.   There is already big part of pvp lobby games that do have incredible success, but in it's shadow there is also rising number of pve lobby games.

The funny thing is that pve lobby games like Diablo was before all the pvp lobby games (except may be pvp FPS shooters).

I hope that more of them will being made because then big part of this significant number of people will go play games like that instead of mmorpg's.  This will result in smaller popularity of mmorpg's which will result with smaller amount of mmorpg's (and bigger amount of various lobby games) and smaller budgets, but at same time those which will remain will have to cater more to mmo, rpg and 'world' part of their design.

 That is not what i see. I think MMO devs want a piece of that lobby game market. Hence LFD, arenas, and essentially embeding lobby games into MMO settings and mechanics. I think it is logical because a lot of the art, gameplay elements (like combat mechanics) can be used both in a world, and an instanced setting.

"Marvel Heroes that is also an MMO".  <--  It might be an MMO (or might not), but it does not bother me.  It is clearly marketted as hack & slash game in mmo-lite / big multiplayer setting. Devs are talking about Diablo in every second dev video.

 I heard it has open zones. Personally i don't care which way it is labelled. From what i have seen (and that it is F2P), i will definitely play.

I do care about mmorpg's and talk about mmorpg's specifically. Other type of mmo's and some kind of mmo-lite or various hybrids does not interest - anything can happen to games like this. I don't care.  I am glad that they other type of mmo's and other types of online games are being made.  It will mean that many people that are playing mmorpg's but are interested in lobby gameplay only or mainly will be able to choose other types of games more suited for their tastes.

I will. In fact, i have not really played a MMO since Diablo 3 is out. Marvel Heroes will probably be my next serious games (aside from all the single player stuff). I may try Planetside 2 when it is out later this month.

Personally i won't be unhappy if there is a split in the genre into more ARPG lobby like "mmo"s and traditional VW MMOs. I wonder what will be the right names.

Originally posted by KhinRunite
Group finder is a fine tool. We have instanced content anyway so this is just logical. I certainly don't like the constant yelling and spamming of inappropriate chat channels just to assemble your group. It would have been nice if players just keep it into one channel (LFG), but that's not what's happening.

Hey here's a solution... don't instance the dungeons!

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Arcondo87

 

Then ppl say well i dont have time to spamm LFG in a city. OR I only have 1hr a day to play!

To them i say this...MMORPG games arnt for you go play FPS, if you are looking for quick fast gameplay.

 

And i say to you .. i vote with my wallet. Apparently devs noticed lots of gamers don't want to commit all the evenings to playing MMOs, and would love to play 1 hr here and there.

Apparently modern MMOs *are* for players with little time, since LFD is more or less a standard feature now.

 

The Real House Wives of XXXXXXXXXX is a very popluar show watched by millions right?

Its some of the worst drivle imaginable.

So just because something is popular, doesent make it good.

Originally posted by xAPOCx

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Arcondo87

 

Then ppl say well i dont have time to spamm LFG in a city. OR I only have 1hr a day to play!

To them i say this...MMORPG games arnt for you go play FPS, if you are looking for quick fast gameplay.

 

And i say to you .. i vote with my wallet. Apparently devs noticed lots of gamers don't want to commit all the evenings to playing MMOs, and would love to play 1 hr here and there.

Apparently modern MMOs *are* for players with little time, since LFD is more or less a standard feature now.

 

The Real House Wives of XXXXXXXXXX is a very popluar show watched by millions right?

Its some of the worst drivle imaginable.

So just because something is popular, doesent make it good.

And Avenger made >1.5B. So just because something is popular, doesn't make it bad.