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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Is the problem really that MMORPGs aren't hard anymore?

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231 posts found
  Rimmersman

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/15/12
Posts: 911

11/13/12 12:14:23 PM#101
Originally posted by Zeppelin4
Originally posted by Rimmersman
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by dave6660
Originally posted by Enigmatus

I wouldn't say that it's because MMOs are too easy; rather they just don't seem to know how to pace the difficulty.

Seriously, everything before the end is a flat plane, and then the end pops up and it eithers ends up being a giant wall of hurt, or a valley or incredible boredom.

And by the time the so called "end game" is reached it's too little too late.

So much effort is put into creating content and maps for levels 1-59.  Yet only a few dungeons in one area at level 60 are difficult.  I usually end up quitting long before reaching that point.

Combine that with the fact that there is very little originality anymore and I find cannot find any reason to play anymore.

Easy leveling *is* a problem. MMOs should have difficulty sliders like ARPGs. Let people level faster if they want to fight harder mobs.

 

Vanguard has this you can also stop xp dead if you want. Seems to me alot of the things people are complaining that mmo no longer do or have, Vanguard still has those things from pre WOW days.

The problem with Vanguard for me is the population. The free to play / store don't help ethier. 

 

This population thing is an old excuse that has warn itself out now. Since the F2P system Vanguards population has risen ten fold. Telon server is really an international server and has many people across all levels playing the game. Plus we are talking about features and certain game elements that people claim to miss but Vanguard has them. Seems to me that these people claimg they miss certain features but play these new mmo like GW2 have only themselves to blame.

  Rimmersman

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/15/12
Posts: 911

11/13/12 12:21:08 PM#102
Originally posted by movindude
Just redo EQ1, DAOC , and Vangaurd with AOC graphics and we will all love MMO's again........I haven't found a game that made my palms sweat from excitement and fear (from death penaltys) like EQ1 and my want to play MMO's has been dying slowly ever since like my chances of the Redskins ever winning the super bowl again. Oh well, back to world of tanks.......

 

EQNext

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

11/13/12 12:22:17 PM#103
Originally posted by Rimmersman
EQNext

Are you getting SOE referral credits or something?

/chuckling

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20543

11/13/12 12:22:28 PM#104
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by nariusseldon

Now it is all very fun. I did uber bosses at MP6 .. and that was a hard fight with many death .. and feel good when we finally kill teh bosses. In fact, i can't even solo the uber unless the MP is very low.

That option has always been available, in every MMO.

Always some guy making a "Soloing Sartherion" video, or somesuch.

I don't know, unless it's something that blocks your progress for time, it doesn't count?

Not really. Usually there are too few difficulty levels to properly adjust.

It is not about whether there are difficult adjustment, but whether there are enough to make the game fun. Take wow for example. You have 3 levels of raid (lfr, normal and hard) but there aren't any choices for heroic dungeons, nor leveling.

Now you can artificially do more by using your own rules (like the ironman challenge, or "soloing Sartherion" as you said) but those are not convenient, and out of reach for many.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

11/13/12 12:24:48 PM#105
Originally posted by nariusseldon

It is not about whether there are difficult adjustment, but whether there are enough to make the game fun. Take wow for example. You have 3 levels of raid (lfr, normal and hard) but there aren't any choices for heroic dungeons, nor leveling.

Now you can artificially do more by using your own rules (like the ironman challenge, or "soloing Sartherion" as you said) but those are not convenient, and out of reach for many.

"Hunt Up" is how we used to do it, back in the pre-mmo dark ages.  +4 +5 +10 levels, whatever a particular game takes.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  makii

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/15/04
Posts: 318

11/13/12 12:25:35 PM#106
Originally posted by ozmono

I wonder if people look at MMOs at a time when they enjoyed them better and start attributing the inevitable decline of interest with them on things like difficulty. Or in other words are people just wearing nostalgia glasses or is game difficulty really so much worse nowdays and as detrimental to current MMOs as some would have you believe?

 

We do not want harder mmos, dont you understand ? back then people complained when mmos were to hardcore and didnt appeal to the mass, now some of you complain they are to easy- but thats what the mass really wanted back then.

  Greymantle4

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/27/07
Posts: 776

11/13/12 12:25:45 PM#107
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by nariusseldon

Now it is all very fun. I did uber bosses at MP6 .. and that was a hard fight with many death .. and feel good when we finally kill teh bosses. In fact, i can't even solo the uber unless the MP is very low.

That option has always been available, in every MMO.

Always some guy making a "Soloing Sartherion" video, or somesuch.

I don't know, unless it's something that blocks your progress for time, it doesn't count?

Not really. Usually there are too few difficulty levels to properly adjust.

It is not about whether there are difficult adjustment, but whether there are enough to make the game fun. Take wow for example. You have 3 levels of raid (lfr, normal and hard) but there aren't any choices for heroic dungeons, nor leveling.

Now you can artificially do more by using your own rules (like the ironman challenge, or "soloing Sartherion" as you said) but those are not convenient, and out of reach for many.

For my wife and I Wow was our favotire game for leveling. Its sad what they did to that game and I really have no idea why. Nerfs to mobs, phasing, speed leveling, account gear, sigh, you made me cry. :(

  Rimmersman

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/15/12
Posts: 911

11/13/12 12:33:00 PM#108
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Rimmersman
EQNext

Are you getting SOE referral credits or something?

/chuckling

 

Nope i'm telling the truth about Vanguard and as for EQNext, well you must of read the latest news.All i'm saying is some people i this thread are complaining about certain feature being lost in present day MMOs yet many if not most of these features are still in some games today. Don't moan about these new MMOs when it's there choice to play them. If they really wanted these features then they would be playing games like Vanguard and Ryzom. Talk is cheap.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

11/13/12 12:39:28 PM#109
Originally posted by Zeppelin4

For my wife and I Wow was our favotire game for leveling. Its sad what they did to that game and I really have no idea why. Nerfs to mobs, phasing, speed leveling, account gear, sigh, you made me cry. :(

Your leveling efficiency is entirely under your control.

You can make leveling as challenging as you wish to.  Particularly easy in WoW, given the gear-based design.

If course, maximum leveling speed and maximum difficulty are in fact conflicting goals.  You can't have both.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Xiaoki

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/07/04
Posts: 2513

11/13/12 12:44:26 PM#110


Originally posted by Thorbrand

Originally posted by Xiaoki MMOs were never hard. Yes, people are looking at the "good old days" with nostalgia. Needless time sinks and badly programmed combat systems do not equate to difficulty.
I would disagree. Today's MMOs only have maybe 10% of the content and features of old MMOs. They only focus on combat and graphics. Not to meantion it is all instanced. All MMOs are grinds and today's MMOs are more mindless grinding than old school MMOs. Because they don't have any content. MMOs are suppose to be like playing PnP RPGs not single player action adventures that are not MMOs.


Nostalgia driven hyperbole.


10% of the content
Entirely instanced
Mindless grinding
No content at all


Is this really the only defense the "old school vets" have?

  Greymantle4

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/27/07
Posts: 776

11/13/12 12:44:27 PM#111
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Zeppelin4

For my wife and I Wow was our favotire game for leveling. Its sad what they did to that game and I really have no idea why. Nerfs to mobs, phasing, speed leveling, account gear, sigh, you made me cry. :(

Your leveling efficiency is entirely under your control.

You can make leveling as challenging as you wish to.  Particularly easy in WoW, given the gear-based design.

If course, maximum leveling speed and maximum difficulty are in fact conflicting goals.  You can't have both.

Right....I do a quest I level.....I do two quest... I level...I do three quest.. I level... My wife needs help on a quest, oh wait she is in a phase that I'm not no help for you. I join a BG and the horde has more account gear to bad for us. I join a BG and we have more account gear to bad for them. Lets go take on that elite mob with my wife...oh wait its gone... Lets do a dungeon run.. oh wait they have turned in to aoe runs at the speed of light. total control yep. 

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

11/13/12 12:47:31 PM#112
Originally posted by Zeppelin4

Right....I do a quest I level.....I do two quest... I level...I do three quest.. I level... My wife needs help on a quest, oh wait she is in a phase that I'm not no help for you. I join a BG and the horde has more account gear to bad for us. I join a BG and we have more account gear to bad for them. Lets go take on that elite mob with my wife...oh wait its gone... Lets do a dungeon run.. oh wait they have turned in to aoe runs at the speed of light. total control yep. 

Now do it in white gear.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  DavisFlight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2594

11/13/12 12:49:35 PM#113
Originally posted by Rimmersman
Originally posted by Zeppelin4
Originally posted by Rimmersman
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by dave6660
Originally posted by Enigmatus

I wouldn't say that it's because MMOs are too easy; rather they just don't seem to know how to pace the difficulty.

Seriously, everything before the end is a flat plane, and then the end pops up and it eithers ends up being a giant wall of hurt, or a valley or incredible boredom.

And by the time the so called "end game" is reached it's too little too late.

So much effort is put into creating content and maps for levels 1-59.  Yet only a few dungeons in one area at level 60 are difficult.  I usually end up quitting long before reaching that point.

Combine that with the fact that there is very little originality anymore and I find cannot find any reason to play anymore.

Easy leveling *is* a problem. MMOs should have difficulty sliders like ARPGs. Let people level faster if they want to fight harder mobs.

 

Vanguard has this you can also stop xp dead if you want. Seems to me alot of the things people are complaining that mmo no longer do or have, Vanguard still has those things from pre WOW days.

The problem with Vanguard for me is the population. The free to play / store don't help ethier. 

 

This population thing is an old excuse that has warn itself out now. Since the F2P system Vanguards population has risen ten fold. Telon server is really an international server and has many people across all levels playing the game. Plus we are talking about features and certain game elements that people claim to miss but Vanguard has them. Seems to me that these people claimg they miss certain features but play these new mmo like GW2 have only themselves to blame.

Yeah Vanguard is more or less the only decent AAA MMO to release in the last 8 years. I play it, but my issue with it is SoE took out several of the more interesting features and made it more like WoW. That, and there's no PvP. Still has the best FTP system I've ever seen though.

  Greymantle4

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/27/07
Posts: 776

11/13/12 12:50:13 PM#114
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Zeppelin4

Right....I do a quest I level.....I do two quest... I level...I do three quest.. I level... My wife needs help on a quest, oh wait she is in a phase that I'm not no help for you. I join a BG and the horde has more account gear to bad for us. I join a BG and we have more account gear to bad for them. Lets go take on that elite mob with my wife...oh wait its gone... Lets do a dungeon run.. oh wait they have turned in to aoe runs at the speed of light. total control yep. 

Now do it in white gear.

haha I can do it naked hand to hand and kick butt. Really what are you trying to prove here? The game is nerfed to hell its as simple as that. The challenge left that game ages ago except for raids and heroic dungeons. It all started with WOTLK and went down hill from there. 

  JimmyYO

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/13/11
Posts: 541

11/13/12 12:51:19 PM#115
I think the problem is they are all non-immersive, unoriginal throw away games.
  DavisFlight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2594

11/13/12 12:53:39 PM#116
Originally posted by Rimmersman
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Rimmersman
Originally posted by furidiam

There are no more real mmo's now. All this new stuff is catering to the short attention span customers. Look at the success of games that are out on the smart phone/face book. These new games are chasing WOW and these social games looking at the profits.

Games used to be made by gamers for gamers. Now it is corporations going after gamers wallets. This is what made games now a days what they are.

 

There are a couple of mmo since WOW that are not hand holding and the old one are still here, if you choose to play these new types of MMO then you only have yourself to blame.

Uh, there's been ONE AAA MMO since WoW came out that was challenging/not a WoW clone.

And no, those old games aren't there anymore, or we'd be playing them.

Really, so EQ isn't here no more and Ryzom and EVE,DAOC and what is a wow clone?

There has never been a WOW clone, do you know the meaning of the word clone?

Ah, you mean a MMO that has quests and level progression, if that's the case then you need to stop playing MMO because they all have some sort of progression. Whether it's levelling skills or levelling to, gain skills or questing or levelling crafting they all have it.

Time for you to stop playing MMOs.

And what AAA MMO do you think is a challenging.

There was never a WoW clone? hahaha. Oh boy. What do you think Rift, LotRO, AoC, SWTOR, and WAR's PvE are? They even have the same UI. Get some perspective. Progression isn't the issue here.

And no, EQ, DAoC, and all the pre WoW MMOs are no longer there in the form that we remember. Hence why people stopped playing.

And the only decent AAA MMORPG of the last 8 years was Vanguard. Maybe GW2 now, but that has its own gaping flaws.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

11/13/12 12:53:54 PM#117
Originally posted by Zeppelin4

haha I can do it naked hand to hand and kick butt. Really what are you trying to prove here? The game is nerfed to hell its as simple as that. The challenge left that game ages ago except for raids and heroic dungeons. It all started with WOTLK and went down hill from there. 

Now do it in white gear, to the cap.

I detect some insincerity creeping into the argument...

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Theocritus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3625

11/13/12 12:55:18 PM#118
     I know that I enjoyed MMOs more when they were more challenging and not everything was handed to us.....I find that the harder MMOs were the ones I tended to play the longest while hte easier ones were always short term......I still look at WoW as the one that changed everything (and not in a good way).......The genre at that point went from games to entertainment, wroking for something to instant gratification, and sense of accomplishment to sense of entitlement.
  Greymantle4

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/27/07
Posts: 776

11/13/12 12:55:33 PM#119
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Zeppelin4

haha I can do it naked hand to hand and kick butt. Really what are you trying to prove here? The game is nerfed to hell its as simple as that. The challenge left that game ages ago except for raids and heroic dungeons. It all started with WOTLK and went down hill from there. 

Now do it in white gear, to the cap.

I detect some insincerity creeping into the argument...

haha I could tie my hands behind my back and see if I can use my nose only with no mouse. What next do you want me to roll a priest and fight hand to hand to level 80?

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

11/13/12 12:55:43 PM#120
Wows UI is ac 's UI.
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