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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Is the problem really that MMORPGs aren't hard anymore?

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231 posts found
  corpusc

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1367

CHATTANOOGAN

contact me if you are seriously interested in
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* making an old schoolish FPS

11/13/12 10:42:31 AM#81
Originally posted by Zeppelin4
Originally posted by corpusc
Originally posted by Icewhite

 

The arcade kids didn't like the collapse of the arcade industry, either.

 

you're talking to completely the wrong person, about the wrong things.

 

the past entire 15 years of MMOs has been the Dark Ages off MMOs, with mainly one good aspect.

i WANT the past 15 years to be largely erased.

 

but NOT the one (mainly) good aspect.  the MMO part.  which until recently was the main thing getting cut from a lot of modern MMOs.

i'm GLAD to see now people are starting to get the right idea and moving away from all the socially destructive aspects of  RPG mechanics.  i have a lot of hope for the future of MMOs and see 2012 as just the beginning of a much brighter future.

 

put that in your assumptive pipe and smoke it.

May I ask what you see that brings you this view? The MMO industry for the last few years has been a huge let down for me. I would like to hear your thoughts on why you see a much brighter future.

 

because they are starting to rethink all the assumptions of what it means to be an MMO. 

starting to think outside of the RPG box.  starting to realize that "hey, there's more genres out there than RPGs!"

they've been forced to do so with all the clones failing to get much more than crumbs from the EQ-patterned pie, and starting to realize that what makes money is going after seperate pies.  pies that they don't have to divide up with anyone (for truly unique games), or pies that don't have very many slices taken already.

 

my main ongoing concern is that too many will throw out the online open world aspect.  or rather, that they will not REINTRODUCE it, since so many have already thrown much of it out.  but the gameplay is clearly changing on a big scale (if you've been reading about upcoming MMOs).  and thats a new & important step towards the variety we need. 

 

The End
---------------------------
i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

  Novusod

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/30/09
Posts: 861

11/13/12 10:43:48 AM#82

It is not about MMOs being EASY or HARD the problem is the games are completely on rails. Every game is pretty much the same now. Start off with huge amounts of solo questing to tell a single story. After a short 30 to 50 hours of questing and watching cut scenes you reach the level cap where there is nothing to do but grind instance PvE or run battle grounds PvP games like capture the flag.

 

Capture the flag is this what we have been reduced to and accept as "end game" these days. Who thought this was a good idea, really? Old school PvP used to be about walking out of a city at level 1 and getting ganked by higher level PKs. Do people even know what PK is? It means player killer. The key to getting past the ganks was to team up with others. It was dangerous to go alone. In such games the community united in the face of adversity. Players leveled up to become PK'ers themselves or PK killers. Modern games are completely safe, no danger at all and no PKs to worry about. All the quests are now lined up like shooting fish in a barrel. It is all instant gratification but what is the point of even playing.

 

On the old school PvE side of things there was no story. Players made their own story by exploring some long forgotten corner of the world. People became attached to their characters because the story was about them and it took a lot of work to get things done. This led people to play their characters for years and years. You just do not see that type player driven character development any more. Modern player characters are like tissues, you use them once and throw them away. Then people wonder why most of the player base of these games ends up quitting after a couple weeks.

 

Bottom line is the Developers don't know how to make living breathing worlds anymore or they simply are not allowed to because of corporate suits making high up decsions.

  dave6660

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/26/08
Posts: 2338

"Next time I see you, remind me not to talk to you."

11/13/12 10:44:30 AM#83
Originally posted by Enigmatus

I wouldn't say that it's because MMOs are too easy; rather they just don't seem to know how to pace the difficulty.

Seriously, everything before the end is a flat plane, and then the end pops up and it eithers ends up being a giant wall of hurt, or a valley or incredible boredom.

And by the time the so called "end game" is reached it's too little too late.

So much effort is put into creating content and maps for levels 1-59.  Yet only a few dungeons in one area at level 60 are difficult.  I usually end up quitting long before reaching that point.

Combine that with the fact that there is very little originality anymore and I find cannot find any reason to play anymore.

"Why so serious?"
-- The Joker

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19496

11/13/12 10:50:09 AM#84
Originally posted by corpusc

my main ongoing concern is that too many will throw out the online open world aspect.  or rather, that they will not REINTRODUCE it, since so many have already thrown much of it out.  but the gameplay is clearly changing on a big scale (if you've been reading about upcoming MMOs).  and thats a new & important step towards the variety we need. 

 

Why is that a concern? I think not all games benefit from an open world. Look at LOL .. they junk the open world, make a arena based game, and they beat WOW in terms of active usage.

I think companies are figuring out that open world is not the best way to entertain people.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19496

11/13/12 10:55:22 AM#85
Originally posted by dave6660
Originally posted by Enigmatus

I wouldn't say that it's because MMOs are too easy; rather they just don't seem to know how to pace the difficulty.

Seriously, everything before the end is a flat plane, and then the end pops up and it eithers ends up being a giant wall of hurt, or a valley or incredible boredom.

And by the time the so called "end game" is reached it's too little too late.

So much effort is put into creating content and maps for levels 1-59.  Yet only a few dungeons in one area at level 60 are difficult.  I usually end up quitting long before reaching that point.

Combine that with the fact that there is very little originality anymore and I find cannot find any reason to play anymore.

Easy leveling *is* a problem. MMOs should have difficulty sliders like ARPGs. Let people level faster if they want to fight harder mobs.

  corpusc

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1367

CHATTANOOGAN

contact me if you are seriously interested in
* C#
* making an old schoolish FPS

11/13/12 10:58:58 AM#86
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by corpusc

put that in your assumptive pipe and smoke it.

Last Word War, combined with Condescending Tennis?  No, but thanks.

 

hahaha funny.  bring up "last word" so that in order to prove you wrong i'd have to not respond, so that YOU would have the last word?   8)

 

however i apparently come from a different world from you.  my posts in a forum are to drop a few opinions here and there.  not this FORUM PVP BS that so many of you prodigious regulars are constantly battling away at. 

so i don't care about proving anything, and i have something to respond to.

the fact that its quite ironic that you pull the Condescension Card.

 

firstly, because i simply stated my opinion on the thread, with no attitude towards anyone, and you wrote a specific response to me that had nothing to do with what i was saying, and being condescending towards my (grossly misinterprested) views.

and i'm far from the only case. 

it seems most of your post history is DRIPPING with condescension.  and i didn't just now look at it.  its just become really obvious with your non-stop barrage of condescension.  i see you prolifically posting on most of the threads i read, and its usually the same attitude.  i happen to agree with many of the ideas you've expressed, but not with the confrontational attitude & presentation.

The End
---------------------------
i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

  Rimmersman

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/15/12
Posts: 911

11/13/12 11:00:31 AM#87
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by dave6660
Originally posted by Enigmatus

I wouldn't say that it's because MMOs are too easy; rather they just don't seem to know how to pace the difficulty.

Seriously, everything before the end is a flat plane, and then the end pops up and it eithers ends up being a giant wall of hurt, or a valley or incredible boredom.

And by the time the so called "end game" is reached it's too little too late.

So much effort is put into creating content and maps for levels 1-59.  Yet only a few dungeons in one area at level 60 are difficult.  I usually end up quitting long before reaching that point.

Combine that with the fact that there is very little originality anymore and I find cannot find any reason to play anymore.

Easy leveling *is* a problem. MMOs should have difficulty sliders like ARPGs. Let people level faster if they want to fight harder mobs.

 

Vanguard has this you can also stop xp dead if you want. Seems to me alot of the things people are complaining that mmo no longer do or have, Vanguard still has those things from pre WOW days. Thing is that even though Vanguard has the xp control skill it still takes months if not a year to level up all three spheres.

  Greymantle4

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/07
Posts: 715

11/13/12 11:02:35 AM#88
Originally posted by Rimmersman
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by dave6660
Originally posted by Enigmatus

I wouldn't say that it's because MMOs are too easy; rather they just don't seem to know how to pace the difficulty.

Seriously, everything before the end is a flat plane, and then the end pops up and it eithers ends up being a giant wall of hurt, or a valley or incredible boredom.

And by the time the so called "end game" is reached it's too little too late.

So much effort is put into creating content and maps for levels 1-59.  Yet only a few dungeons in one area at level 60 are difficult.  I usually end up quitting long before reaching that point.

Combine that with the fact that there is very little originality anymore and I find cannot find any reason to play anymore.

Easy leveling *is* a problem. MMOs should have difficulty sliders like ARPGs. Let people level faster if they want to fight harder mobs.

 

Vanguard has this you can also stop xp dead if you want. Seems to me alot of the things people are complaining that mmo no longer do or have, Vanguard still has those things from pre WOW days.

The problem with Vanguard for me is the population. The free to play / store don't help ethier. 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19496

11/13/12 11:03:56 AM#89
Originally posted by Rimmersman
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by dave6660
Originally posted by Enigmatus

I wouldn't say that it's because MMOs are too easy; rather they just don't seem to know how to pace the difficulty.

Seriously, everything before the end is a flat plane, and then the end pops up and it eithers ends up being a giant wall of hurt, or a valley or incredible boredom.

And by the time the so called "end game" is reached it's too little too late.

So much effort is put into creating content and maps for levels 1-59.  Yet only a few dungeons in one area at level 60 are difficult.  I usually end up quitting long before reaching that point.

Combine that with the fact that there is very little originality anymore and I find cannot find any reason to play anymore.

Easy leveling *is* a problem. MMOs should have difficulty sliders like ARPGs. Let people level faster if they want to fight harder mobs.

 

Vanguard has this you can also stop xp dead if you want. Seems to me alot of the things people are complaining that mmo no longer do or have, Vanguard still has those things from pre WOW days.

Sure. But vanguard is also lacking in modern MMO features like instances and LFD. The problem is that good polished games like WOW is lacking this difficulty feature.

Blizz did put this into Diablo 3 and made it a much much better game. I will actually die even when i level my alt with op gear. That never happens in WOW.

  Greymantle4

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/07
Posts: 715

11/13/12 11:05:18 AM#90
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Rimmersman
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by dave6660
Originally posted by Enigmatus

I wouldn't say that it's because MMOs are too easy; rather they just don't seem to know how to pace the difficulty.

Seriously, everything before the end is a flat plane, and then the end pops up and it eithers ends up being a giant wall of hurt, or a valley or incredible boredom.

And by the time the so called "end game" is reached it's too little too late.

So much effort is put into creating content and maps for levels 1-59.  Yet only a few dungeons in one area at level 60 are difficult.  I usually end up quitting long before reaching that point.

Combine that with the fact that there is very little originality anymore and I find cannot find any reason to play anymore.

Easy leveling *is* a problem. MMOs should have difficulty sliders like ARPGs. Let people level faster if they want to fight harder mobs.

 

Vanguard has this you can also stop xp dead if you want. Seems to me alot of the things people are complaining that mmo no longer do or have, Vanguard still has those things from pre WOW days.

Sure. But vanguard is also lacking in modern MMO features like instances and LFD. The problem is that good polished games like WOW is lacking this difficulty feature.

Blizz did put this into Diablo 3 and made it a much much better game. I will actually die even when i level my alt with op gear. That never happens in WOW.

This was a great and game saving feature for me in Diablo 3. That and the better loot drops. 

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

11/13/12 11:07:08 AM#91
Nah the problem is most of them aren't mmos anymore, they're just glorified lobby games like d3, borderlands and gw1, but with this outdoor leveling up bit first.
  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4616

11/13/12 11:07:43 AM#92
Originally posted by ozmono

I wonder if people look at MMOs at a time when they enjoyed them better and start attributing the inevitable decline of interest with them on things like difficulty. Or in other words are people just wearing nostalgia glasses or is game difficulty really so much worse nowdays and as detrimental to current MMOs as some would have you believe?

MMO's were never hard. It's not so much a question of difficulty as much as one of time commitment.  It's not that they are easier, they are faster.

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  corpusc

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1367

CHATTANOOGAN

contact me if you are seriously interested in
* C#
* making an old schoolish FPS

11/13/12 11:08:45 AM#93
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by corpusc

my main ongoing concern is that too many will throw out the online open world aspect.  or rather, that they will not REINTRODUCE it, since so many have already thrown much of it out.  but the gameplay is clearly changing on a big scale (if you've been reading about upcoming MMOs).  and thats a new & important step towards the variety we need. 

 

Why is that a concern? I think not all games benefit from an open world. Look at LOL .. they junk the open world, make a arena based game, and they beat WOW in terms of active usage.

I think companies are figuring out that open world is not the best way to entertain people.

 

 

not all vehicles benefit from being a car.  but when you're in the market to buy a car, and you go to car websites to read about them, its quite normal to be dismayed when you are flooded with a bunch of info & pictures of motorcycles, trikes, bicycles, mopeds, scooters, tricycles, hangliders, parasailers, boats, jetskis, pontoons, etc. etc. and very few things related to cars. 

instead you see alot of "cars are out of fashion", "what's so great about cars?", and my new favorite "why are you concerned that you don't see cars?  not all vehicles benefit from being cars"

The End
---------------------------
i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

11/13/12 11:08:51 AM#94
No instances sounds good to me, that's one modern "mm"orpg feature they can shove where the sun don't shine.
  Whitebeards

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/02/11
Posts: 750

11/13/12 11:09:03 AM#95
No what changed is that i grew up and i don't find anything hard anymore;) 
  Rimmersman

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/15/12
Posts: 911

11/13/12 11:09:04 AM#96
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Rimmersman
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by dave6660
Originally posted by Enigmatus

I wouldn't say that it's because MMOs are too easy; rather they just don't seem to know how to pace the difficulty.

Seriously, everything before the end is a flat plane, and then the end pops up and it eithers ends up being a giant wall of hurt, or a valley or incredible boredom.

And by the time the so called "end game" is reached it's too little too late.

So much effort is put into creating content and maps for levels 1-59.  Yet only a few dungeons in one area at level 60 are difficult.  I usually end up quitting long before reaching that point.

Combine that with the fact that there is very little originality anymore and I find cannot find any reason to play anymore.

Easy leveling *is* a problem. MMOs should have difficulty sliders like ARPGs. Let people level faster if they want to fight harder mobs.

 

Vanguard has this you can also stop xp dead if you want. Seems to me alot of the things people are complaining that mmo no longer do or have, Vanguard still has those things from pre WOW days.

Sure. But vanguard is also lacking in modern MMO features like instances and LFD. The problem is that good polished games like WOW is lacking this difficulty feature.

Blizz did put this into Diablo 3 and made it a much much better game. I will actually die even when i level my alt with op gear. That never happens in WOW.

 

Lol not having instances is a strong point of Vanguard and when has instances been a modern feature lol. EQ had instances with the release of LDON and AC had instances in 2002. Vanguard has a LFD do you actually know what you are talking about lol.

  movindude

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/21/08
Posts: 102

11/13/12 11:10:27 AM#97
Just redo EQ1, DAOC , and Vangaurd with AOC graphics and we will all love MMO's again........I haven't found a game that made my palms sweat from excitement and fear (from death penaltys) like EQ1 and my want to play MMO's has been dying slowly ever since like my chances of the Redskins ever winning the super bowl again. Oh well, back to world of tanks.......
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19496

11/13/12 11:11:26 AM#98
Originally posted by Zeppelin4
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Rimmersman
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by dave6660
Originally posted by Enigmatus

I wouldn't say that it's because MMOs are too easy; rather they just don't seem to know how to pace the difficulty.

Seriously, everything before the end is a flat plane, and then the end pops up and it eithers ends up being a giant wall of hurt, or a valley or incredible boredom.

And by the time the so called "end game" is reached it's too little too late.

So much effort is put into creating content and maps for levels 1-59.  Yet only a few dungeons in one area at level 60 are difficult.  I usually end up quitting long before reaching that point.

Combine that with the fact that there is very little originality anymore and I find cannot find any reason to play anymore.

Easy leveling *is* a problem. MMOs should have difficulty sliders like ARPGs. Let people level faster if they want to fight harder mobs.

 

Vanguard has this you can also stop xp dead if you want. Seems to me alot of the things people are complaining that mmo no longer do or have, Vanguard still has those things from pre WOW days.

Sure. But vanguard is also lacking in modern MMO features like instances and LFD. The problem is that good polished games like WOW is lacking this difficulty feature.

Blizz did put this into Diablo 3 and made it a much much better game. I will actually die even when i level my alt with op gear. That never happens in WOW.

This was a great and game saving feature for me in Diablo 3. That and the better loot drops. 

The funny thing is .. they already have that in D2 .. and they did not put it in until 1.05 .. i guess that have to see the data before they can calibrate the difficulty better.

Now it is all very fun. I did uber bosses at MP6 .. and that was a hard fight with many death .. and feel good when we finally kill teh bosses. In fact, i can't even solo the uber unless the MP is very low.

I usually farm MP4 (still with some death if i am not careful) ... but i can (and have) tried MP5 just to see how difficulty it is.

There are of course top geared players who can do the max difficulties, but there are very few of them. For me, i tried MP10 once just to see, and i died to normal mobs in like 2 sec.

Now only if they will speed up the expansion, i will be a happy camper.

  corpusc

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1367

CHATTANOOGAN

contact me if you are seriously interested in
* C#
* making an old schoolish FPS

11/13/12 11:13:51 AM#99
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Rimmersman
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by dave6660
 

 But vanguard is also lacking in modern MMO features like instances

 

and cars lack the ability to drive on 2 wheels and be parked on your back porch.

The End
---------------------------
i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

11/13/12 11:13:56 AM#100
Originally posted by nariusseldon

Now it is all very fun. I did uber bosses at MP6 .. and that was a hard fight with many death .. and feel good when we finally kill teh bosses. In fact, i can't even solo the uber unless the MP is very low.

That option has always been available, in every MMO.

Always some guy making a "Soloing Sartherion" video, or somesuch.

I don't know, unless it's something that blocks your progress for <x> time, it doesn't count?

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

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