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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why no themepark and sandbox can ever succeed after WoW and EVE

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  TheScavenger

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/05/12
Posts: 684

Those who ask a question, are stupid for 30 seconds. Those who never ask, are stupid for life.

 
OP  11/11/12 7:39:05 PM#1

and its not because its a themepark and sandboxers hate themeparks. And its not because sandbox games are all indie games.

 

For themeparks. Its because people complain that there is no endgame content within 1 month (or some complain 3 months) after release. Stating at the same time, that WoW has TONS of endgame content and way more stuff to do. While forgetting that WoW endgame content sucked until Burning Crusade and Wrath of the Lich King (I liked fighting Arthas, for lore reasons...)...future expansions added lots of content (but I stopped playing after cataclysm)

That means NO themepark can ever succeed. As I've seen MMOs die SO fast due to not nearly as much endgame content as WoW. People don't even give the game a year (like they did with WoW), before mass leaving. No themepark, no matter how much money is spent, can ever catch up to WoW at release. Now, since WoW only comes out with 2 patches a year and an expansion every 1-2 years...MMOs can come out with much faster updates (every month like RIFT), and end up with more content. But most people don't give MMOs the chance to do so, and just end up going to WoW where there is tons of content.

 

Then there is EVE. The opposite genre of WoW. No sandbox game can ever compete with EVE. EVE nails PvP, so why play a clone of EVE's pvp system? EVE nails diplomacy, which has taken YEARS to develop. No sandbox game can ever spend enough time before its release, to develop diplomacy. On top of that, like WoW...EVE has TONS of content. So much to do. Now PvErs may not like EVE...but Ryzom is a PvE sandbox, and its dead...many polls on MMORPG and elsewhere, most people won't play a pure PvE sandbox.  They want at least SOME PvP. However, even EVE PvE got way better once they introduced events, wormholes and all that jazz...

 

No sandbox MMO can ever catch up to EVE in terms of stability (including lack of bugs) AND content. I've seen many sandbox MMOs come out and people complain there is no content (or lack of it), or EVE is better at x and y or any number of things.

 

So, in other words...unless you come out at RELEASE with as much content as EVE and WoW (which is impossible), most people will leave before the year is up and not give it a chance. How do I know this? I've seen this almost everywhere, on official MMO forums, MMORPG.com and other online game forums...most people leave because of lack of content at release.

People keep hoping for THE ONE MMO..but they don't give THE ONE a chance. Instead they leave within 3 months due to lack of content and go back to WoW and EVE. Doesn't matter if its a sandbox or a themepark, you need as much (and high) quality content as the two big MMOs in their genre.

 

(edit: Fixed a spacing error, added a line at end of the post)

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  muffins89

Novice Member

Joined: 10/15/12
Posts: 1254

11/11/12 8:08:56 PM#2

"People keep hoping for THE ONE MMO..but they don't give THE ONE a chance. Instead they leave within 3 months due to lack of content and go back to WoW and EVE. Doesn't matter if its a sandbox or a themepark, you need as much (and high) quality content as the two big MMOs in their genre."

 

that should be most people.

 

i tend to agree with your overall sentiment but,  a game doesnt need millions or even 1 million people to be successful. 

I think the prostitute mod corrupted your game files man. -elhefen

  User Deleted
11/11/12 8:17:33 PM#3
Originally posted by muffins89

"People keep hoping for THE ONE MMO..but they don't give THE ONE a chance. Instead they leave within 3 months due to lack of content and go back to WoW and EVE. Doesn't matter if its a sandbox or a themepark, you need as much (and high) quality content as the two big MMOs in their genre."

that should be most people.

i tend to agree with your overall sentiment but,  a game doesnt need millions or even 1 million people to be successful. 

I can't help but feel that most people do feel that an MMO needs millions in order to be worth anything, even the people crying for a sandbox MMO.

I also get the feeling that most of them forgot about the origins of their favorite MMOs, that most of them didn't exactly start out as enormous mega giants.

  Theocritus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3613

11/11/12 8:19:59 PM#4
   I'd agree with WoW, but dont agree on EVE.....EVE does well for what it is but not everyone likes being a spaceship....Someday someone will do fantasy sandbox right and the game will take off.....Maybe not 10 million+ strong but it will do well once it is done right.
  User Deleted
11/11/12 8:23:34 PM#5
Originally posted by Theocritus
   I'd agree with WoW, but dont agree on EVE.....EVE does well for what it is but not everyone likes being a spaceship....Someday someone will do fantasy sandbox right and the game will take off.....Maybe not 10 million+ strong but it will do well once it is done right.

I personally consider this wishful thinking. Something untested is not just going to take off and gain millions. Even EVE started off sluggish, at least based on the history I looked up.

  ElderRat

Novice Member

Joined: 9/30/10
Posts: 909

11/11/12 8:25:31 PM#6

 

 

 

Then there is EVE. The opposite genre of WoW. No sandbox game can ever compete with EVE. EVE nails PvP, so why play a clone of EVE's pvp system? EVE nails diplomacy, which has taken YEARS to develop. No sandbox game can ever spend enough time before its release, to develop diplomacy. On top of that, like WoW...EVE has TONS of content. So much to do. Now PvErs may not like EVE...but Ryzom is a PvE sandbox, and its dead...many polls on MMORPG and elsewhere, most people won't play a pure PvE sandbox.  They want at least SOME PvP. However, even EVE PvE got way better once they introduced events, wormholes and all that jazz...

 

 

the makers of EVE are making World of Darkness and I think that, given all the experience they have gained WoD will be awesome, and not sci-fi. Granted many may not like the vampire idea, but factor in the politics among the clans of vampires and I think it will be a game that will be as good as EVE.  

 Also never is a very long time.

Currently bored with MMO's.

  Fusion

Old School

Joined: 5/21/03
Posts: 1359

11/11/12 8:28:46 PM#7
Originally posted by ElderRat

 

 

 

Then there is EVE. The opposite genre of WoW. No sandbox game can ever compete with EVE. EVE nails PvP, so why play a clone of EVE's pvp system? EVE nails diplomacy, which has taken YEARS to develop. No sandbox game can ever spend enough time before its release, to develop diplomacy. On top of that, like WoW...EVE has TONS of content. So much to do. Now PvErs may not like EVE...but Ryzom is a PvE sandbox, and its dead...many polls on MMORPG and elsewhere, most people won't play a pure PvE sandbox.  They want at least SOME PvP. However, even EVE PvE got way better once they introduced events, wormholes and all that jazz...

 

 

the makers of EVE are making World of Darkness and I think that, given all the experience they have gained WoD will be awesome, and not sci-fi. Granted many may not like the vampire idea, but factor in the politics among the clans of vampires and I think it will be a game that will be as good as EVE.  

 Also never is a very long time.

I'm really sceptical towards CCP making WoD...

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  Thane

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/14/03
Posts: 1866

I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.

11/11/12 8:30:01 PM#8
Originally posted by TheScavenger

(...)

Now, since WoW only comes out with 2 patches a year and an expansion every 1-2 years...MMOs can come out with much faster updates (every month like RIFT)

(...)

all i see from rift is "storm legion update! storm legion soon! play storm legion... but not now! soooon!"

someone seriously should get rid of his pink glasses :)

(and in the end, it dont see alot of new things in rift either... sorry)

 

 

uh and wow with 2 patches a year? you didnt really follow WoW did ya?

"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  TheScavenger

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/05/12
Posts: 684

Those who ask a question, are stupid for 30 seconds. Those who never ask, are stupid for life.

 
OP  11/11/12 8:30:02 PM#9
Originally posted by Theocritus
   I'd agree with WoW, but dont agree on EVE.....EVE does well for what it is but not everyone likes being a spaceship....Someday someone will do fantasy sandbox right and the game will take off.....Maybe not 10 million+ strong but it will do well once it is done right.

There was SWG which is considered one of the best sandbox MMOs. However, unlike EVE...and what many people don't say...even before NGE and even before the combat update, I saw population dropping slowly (but steadily). So, even playing as an actual character, doesn't seem to work.

 

Granted, SWG was rather buggy...but, that was REALLY common back in the early days of MMOs Still is to some degree.

 

Having said that...as I briefly mentioned, Ryzom (while it is Sci-Fi and not Fantasy)...isn't you as a spaceship...and that game has gone bankrupt many times and barely as any population (last I looked, before the server merges). Though I did say it was pure PvE, and while it focuses on PvE...it has PvP in it. With outposts and not sure if anything else. So I correct myself on that. But Ryzom has lots of interesting and good features, not as much content as other MMOs...but the environment and animal/character interaction is bar none, the best. But, barely anyone plays it. Well, not sure what its like now after the merges...haven't heard anything about it in a while.

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  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18999

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

11/11/12 8:40:16 PM#10
Put the time(sinks) back into MMOs and you'll begin to retain players again. Those who don't like this set of design won't stick around no matter what you try to do. Nothing will ever entertain them over the long term. MMORPGs used to be designed for the patient and persiverent. They could be once again.

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Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
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  TheScavenger

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/05/12
Posts: 684

Those who ask a question, are stupid for 30 seconds. Those who never ask, are stupid for life.

 
OP  11/11/12 8:42:22 PM#11
Originally posted by Thane
Originally posted by TheScavenger

(...)

Now, since WoW only comes out with 2 patches a year and an expansion every 1-2 years...MMOs can come out with much faster updates (every month like RIFT)

(...)

all i see from rift is "storm legion update! storm legion soon! play storm legion... but not now! soooon!"

someone seriously should get rid of his pink glasses :)

(and in the end, it dont see alot of new things in rift either... sorry)

 

 

uh and wow with 2 patches a year? you didnt really follow WoW did ya?

I don't play RIFT, (I do however like the company) and I stopped playing WoW in Cataclysm. I only remember seeing two huge content patches a year for WoW that were advertised on the front page of the official site. Maybe my dislike for Cataclysm/Panderia is clouding my memory...but I'm pretty sure there was only 2, MAYBE 3 at most a year. All the rest were "little" ones that weren't newsworthy. I know it wasn't nearly as many as other MMOs. I remember waiting for like 5 months for the Cataclysm patch...I was unsubscribed that whole time, since I was looking forward to it. It seemed like ages before the pre-expansion patch was released.

 

RIFT however, I see large content patches announced every 1-3 months. But to be honest, maybe that changed...I haven't kept up on RIFT this year, been focused on other stuff and college...so much homework in college. Glad I only took one class lol.

 

Anyway...I do know RIFT was sure releasing constant patches last year. That was one of the things I kept reading about on forums, is how Trion gave so many content updates to RIFT. and seeing constant updates.

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  TheScavenger

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/05/12
Posts: 684

Those who ask a question, are stupid for 30 seconds. Those who never ask, are stupid for life.

 
OP  11/11/12 8:47:56 PM#12
Originally posted by Kyleran
Put the time(sinks) back into MMOs and you'll begin to retain players again. Those who don't like this set of design won't stick around no matter what you try to do. Nothing will ever entertain them over the long term. MMORPGs used to be designed for the patient and persiverent. They could be once again.

Yes. This is why I played so long with WoW (before Cataclysm), EVE, Ryzom, UO, Asheron's Call, Ultima Online...and somewhat SWG (but I personally stopped shortly before combat update).

 

Actually, somewhat true to LOTRO too...

 

Seeing as LOTRO is a good example. It used to take a long time to level up, you could finish 100% an area and not outlevel any quests. Then they "dumbed" the game down, made it faster to level, made things easier...less time sinks and do 3-5 quests and you outlevel all the others...I reached max level, sped (well, content went REALLY fast, because how easy they made it...I even tried taking my time)...and was done in 3 months.

 

WoW, before Cataclysm...could spend lots of time doing crafting/leveling...took a lot of time to do those things. Took time to get equipment. Then they sped it up, less time sinks...and ran out of stuff to do...cause it went by so fast.

 

Then the best examples, SWG/EVE/AC/UO/Ryzom...all took a long time to level up and reach your potential. (for me) except for SWG...I played all of those for years, and felt very rewarded for accomplishing things.

 

So, there is "lack" of content...but maybe that lack of content comes with how fast they make the content go by.

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  Saur0n

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 79

11/11/12 8:49:38 PM#13
It's not about the player population or how good the game is.  It's about making as much money as possible in a short time.  When all the trust fund jocks that run the publishing companies are put up against a wall and shot we'll have quality back.
  Params7

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/18/09
Posts: 202

11/11/12 8:51:09 PM#14
This thread is wrong just from its topic title. There's always new markets out there and old ones to reconvert.
  tank017

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/06
Posts: 2206

11/11/12 8:55:22 PM#15

I disagree..

 

Rift and Guild War 2 are perfect examples of successful theme parks.I also think TSW has a good chance to grow its population due to how unique the game is.If Funcom does things right,they will succeed imo..

 

Sandoxes,the sky is the limit.I believe if a major company nails a high budget sandbox,it'll be a gold mine.There simply arent enough GOOD,QUALITY, sandboxes in the market,so it is ripe for the taking.

 

you have Eve and.......................?

  TacoShank

Novice Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 23

11/11/12 10:17:03 PM#16

I'm sorry, but saying there will never be another successful themepark or sandbox MMO is simply alarmist.

Is your definition of success 10 million+ subscribers? There are plenty of MMOs that are turning a profit right now without those numbers, but that doesn't mean they have failed.

Even if you consider having under 10 million subscribers a failure (which in this case would mean EvE is a failure as well), are you honestly willing to say that a rapidly growing market like the video game industry will never see another success story like WoW?

Be a little more conservative with your absolutes if you can't predict the future absolutely.

  ozmono

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/12/06
Posts: 1040

11/11/12 10:33:13 PM#17
Originally posted by tank017

 

Sandoxes,the sky is the limit.I believe if a major company nails a high budget sandbox,it'll be a gold mine.

I'm a believer too.

  artemisentr4

Elite Member

Joined: 12/25/08
Posts: 1439

11/11/12 10:40:16 PM#18
Originally posted by TheScavenger
Originally posted by Kyleran
Put the time(sinks) back into MMOs and you'll begin to retain players again. Those who don't like this set of design won't stick around no matter what you try to do. Nothing will ever entertain them over the long term. MMORPGs used to be designed for the patient and persiverent. They could be once again.

Yes. This is why I played so long with WoW (before Cataclysm), EVE, Ryzom, UO, Asheron's Call, Ultima Online...and somewhat SWG (but I personally stopped shortly before combat update).

 

Actually, somewhat true to LOTRO too...

 

Seeing as LOTRO is a good example. It used to take a long time to level up, you could finish 100% an area and not outlevel any quests. Then they "dumbed" the game down, made it faster to level, made things easier...less time sinks and do 3-5 quests and you outlevel all the others...I reached max level, sped (well, content went REALLY fast, because how easy they made it...I even tried taking my time)...and was done in 3 months.

 

WoW, before Cataclysm...could spend lots of time doing crafting/leveling...took a lot of time to do those things. Took time to get equipment. Then they sped it up, less time sinks...and ran out of stuff to do...cause it went by so fast.

 

Then the best examples, SWG/EVE/AC/UO/Ryzom...all took a long time to level up and reach your potential. (for me) except for SWG...I played all of those for years, and felt very rewarded for accomplishing things.

 

So, there is "lack" of content...but maybe that lack of content comes with how fast they make the content go by.

I agree with this. Even though many hate chacing the carrot, it works. The grind is part of the game. Having quests take minutes to complete and leveling in hours instead of days makes the end game the only game. Because the questing is over so fast that there is no reason for it.

 

So it comes down to raid or die, grind PvP at end game, grind skills and that is all the game is. I would love to see quests that take hours as basic quests. Dungeons that can take days instead of hours to complete. And level caps or skill caps that take months instead of days or weeks. But the player base seems to have ADD today. So we are stuck because that is what seems to sell.

“How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?”
R.A.Salvatore

  Onomas

Novice Member

Joined: 7/05/11
Posts: 1160

Sandbox is your only hope for a decent mmo ;)

11/11/12 10:55:07 PM#19

Thats not a very good thread, considering all game companies started out as indie lol.

The fact that blizzards first attempt at a mmo came at the perfect time when more kids were getting online and exploring the web. When mmo's first came out not many had internet access ;)

MMO's were also designed for adults, and blizzard went after the kiddies and it killed mmo's. Newage gamers wanted mmo's to be easy, non-complex, no features, just rush to the end and whine on the forums. That is what the genre has ammounted to.

Blizzard did have a name and strong experience in game making, but for single rts and single player games.

 

There are a few sandboxes coming that are very good looking and have many aspects of a true mmo and will do well. Asians are starting to swing to sandboxes because themepark market has been beaten to death multiple times. THats why no game is doing well, they are all the same, lack 75% of features a mmo should have, and are boring. THey are no more than console rpg's and its sickening.

 

I do think The repopulation, greed monger, the black desert, and of course archeage will do well. But doesnt ahve to beat WOW, wouldnt want the bad community to ruin any new games anyways. The kiddies can stay there ;)

  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 5979

11/11/12 10:57:31 PM#20
So I believe the question comes down to, Why is it that no other sandbox MMO has been more successful than Eve? Can any of you answer that?

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