Hmm hmm, 

http://l2.eogamer.com/wiki/Raid_Boss_List

Or is L2 now a sandbox? Anyways, what was the question?

Flame on!

:)

Originally posted by xAPOCx

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Originally posted by xAPOCx

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Originally posted by xAPOCx

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Can you think of something that most themepark MMO almost never try?

 

From my point of view, I rarely see Themepark MMO deliver Raid Dungeons that are for lower level players. Usually they are pure endgame content.

Reason being that people would work very hard for gear there goin to out lvl very quickly. Theamparks allow for fast progression thus negating the need for hard raid content at lower lvls. wouldnt be worth the time.

But do all raid dungeons have to be harder content? Why can't smaller party dungeons be the hardest content instead?

I dont understand. are you asking why cant raid content be easier then small group content? I think that its self-explanatory. Why else would you need a larger group of people to do content if it wasent infact harder then content  that a small group could handle?

Thats a common misconception.

You assume, that since in most mmo, that the Harder Content always happen to be the Content that is the largest party size, so you assume they are linked.

thats not really the case.

Look at WoW, some 10 Man raids are a lot harder than the older 20man raids and even the old 40 man raids. and vice verse.

Those raid dungeons were designed to be hardest content. that doesnt mean they have to be the hardest content. I am sure if developers wanted to, they could switch the difficulty of 5 man dungeons and endgame raid dungeons.

hence I never seen a themepark MMO do they, by stepping away from the Raid Dungeons being endgame only.

those 40 man raids are outdated lower lvl instance so ofcourse they would be easier then max lvl 10-20 mans. I dont believe a theampark mmo would ass 20-40 man lvl 10-15 raids when the gear there goin to farm for will just be out lvled in a day or so.

but that also apply to party dungeons. people dont run low level party dungeons for the same reason.

but there are still party dungeons outside of endgame.

Originally posted by Yamota
Thinking outside the box?

well honestly, I seen more innovation in themepark mmo than I have in Sandbox MMO.

prove me wrong.

always seem to have FFA PvP with looting,

and skill system

same old same old.

well maybe Eve, since you a ship instead of a character.

Originally posted by Banaghran

Hmm hmm, 

http://l2.eogamer.com/wiki/Raid_Boss_List

Or is L2 now a sandbox? Anyways, what was the question?

Flame on!

:)

You have a lot of good points in your posts but you detract a lot from your own message with that pointless closing.

Originally posted by Banaghran

Hmm hmm, 

http://l2.eogamer.com/wiki/Raid_Boss_List

Or is L2 now a sandbox? Anyways, what was the question?

Flame on!

:)

i never played l2 so i wouldent know what they would consider raid sise groups and how they work. were raids in l2 open world or instanced? Open world raid bosses i could see for lower lvls but a full blown instance with 10- 15 bosses that have 7 day lockout timers? i just cant see it.

They should try...

...not sucking ass... 

...for once...

...thanks.

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Originally posted by xAPOCx

those 40 man raids are outdated lower lvl instance so ofcourse they would be easier then max lvl 10-20 mans. I dont believe a theampark mmo would ass 20-40 man lvl 10-15 raids when the gear there goin to farm for will just be out lvled in a day or so.

but that also apply to party dungeons. people dont run low level party dungeons for the same reason.

but there are still party dungeons outside of endgame.

You have to remember that these raid instances would have to be farmed to get the gear from them. with lockout timers and how fast lvling occures in theampark games, raiding ( instance raiding) at lower lvls seems pointless.

Originally posted by xAPOCx

Originally posted by Zylaxx

Originally posted by MMOExposed

 

 

The most important thing that Themeparks fail to deliver on is or most never try is Player Housing.  Housing is simple the easiest and most development friendly modes of content to create sandbox like gameplay.

But once theamparks start adding sandbox elements doesent it cease to be a theampark?

I'm sorry, but, how the hell is housing a sandbox features? You can put it in the most linear, no player created content, game if you want.

What i don't see themeparks do more often is focus more pvp, like RVR. You could have some quests, story isntances, isntanced 5 mans, raids, zoned leveling, but make teh RVR at max level the main focus of the game and where the developement goes. Even TESO is going 50%, if not more for pve since it takes far more resources.

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Originally posted by Yamota
Thinking outside the box?

well honestly, I seen more innovation in themepark mmo than I have in Sandbox MMO.

prove me wrong.

 

always seem to have FFA PvP with looting,

and skill system

same old same old.

 

well maybe Eve, since you a ship instead of a character.

In all fainess the innovation your seeing is theampark related. Not sandbox related.

and ill all fainess theamparks have seen the most money it justify seeing inovation. Sandbox budgets are very very slim.

Originally posted by MMOwanderer

Originally posted by xAPOCx

Originally posted by Zylaxx

Originally posted by MMOExposed

 

 

The most important thing that Themeparks fail to deliver on is or most never try is Player Housing.  Housing is simple the easiest and most development friendly modes of content to create sandbox like gameplay.

But once theamparks start adding sandbox elements doesent it cease to be a theampark?

I'm sorry, but, how the hell is housing a sandbox features? You can put it in the most linear, no player created content, game if you want.

What i don't see themeparks do more often is focus more pvp, like RVR. You could have some quests, story isntances, isntanced 5 mans, raids, zoned leveling, but make teh RVR at max level the main focus of the game and where the developement goes. Even TESO is going 50%, if not more for pve since it takes far more resources.

 

Im sorry but since when isent player houseing a sandbox feature? Houseing IS player created content. I thought that was the deffinition of what a sandbox feature is.

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Originally posted by Yamota
Thinking outside the box?

well honestly, I seen more innovation in themepark mmo than I have in Sandbox MMO.

prove me wrong.

always seem to have FFA PvP with looting,

and skill system

same old same old.

You you mean 'improvement of something existing for the better' then what's typically considered themepark has more of that simply because there are, without exaggeration, hundreds of them. If you mean 'something new and different' then MMOs that focus on sandbox content have far more innovation. If nothing else, the goals and purpose is far more diverse among sandbox style MMOs. In almost every themepark MMO not only has theme (fantasy) remained mostly unchanged, but the gameplay itself rarely ever is anything other than killing things to get better gear.

ATITD, EVE, UO, Project Entropia, There, Second Life, Love, Shores of Hazeron, Wurm Online, Free Realms

I'm not seeing the same "same old, same old" that you are, I guess.

Yes, using what is most likely your definition of innovation, developers have innovated the crap out of the EQ/DikuMUD system for a decade. If anything "same old, same old" applies perfectly to themepark focused MMOs.

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Originally posted by Yamota
Thinking outside the box?

well honestly, I seen more innovation in themepark mmo than I have in Sandbox MMO.

prove me wrong.

 

always seem to have FFA PvP with looting,

and skill system

same old same old.

 

well maybe Eve, since you a ship instead of a character.

EVE is very innovative in so many ways, and don't you know, I have a character that I can see, dress up and hang out in the Captain's quarters.

But back to innovation, love it or hate it, real time skill training is an EVE trademark, it's market systems are unrivaled, even running a damn personal space station takes a ton of skils and steps.

And it doesn't even have FFA PVP, at least not in the traditional sense.  But there is certainly looting. 

Edit: Forgot to stick the topic at hand.  I'd say few theme parks have provided a PVP centric end game a la DAOC and some other early titles.  They now pretty much stick to balanced arena / BG style combat rather than let us seige castles . (Aion being one notable exception)

Originally posted by xAPOCx

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Originally posted by xAPOCx

those 40 man raids are outdated lower lvl instance so ofcourse they would be easier then max lvl 10-20 mans. I dont believe a theampark mmo would ass 20-40 man lvl 10-15 raids when the gear there goin to farm for will just be out lvled in a day or so.

but that also apply to party dungeons. people dont run low level party dungeons for the same reason.

but there are still party dungeons outside of endgame.

You have to remember that these raid instances would have to be farmed to get the gear from them. with lockout timers and how fast lvling occures in theampark games, raiding ( instance raiding) at lower lvls seems pointless.

But thats the thing. Raids dont need lockout timers. Endgame Raids in themepark MMO may use that to prevent people from rushing the content. But thats not a requirement for a Raid Dungeon.

A Raid Dungeon can work for non endgame use as well. In most trinity MMO, the Tank population is smaller than other role's population.

By packing more DPS per tank per group, the group size goes up, but the same number of tanks stay the same. The dungeon would be large scale, but same difficulty as a traditional party dungeon, since it would be designed that way. Not to be another Lich King/ BWL etc. But to be another sunken Temple, or deadmines, or (insert dungeon name from WoW, since I cant remember off top of my head their names)

Originally posted by xAPOCx

Originally posted by MMOwanderer

Originally posted by xAPOCx

Originally posted by Zylaxx

Originally posted by MMOExposed

 

 

The most important thing that Themeparks fail to deliver on is or most never try is Player Housing.  Housing is simple the easiest and most development friendly modes of content to create sandbox like gameplay.

But once theamparks start adding sandbox elements doesent it cease to be a theampark?

I'm sorry, but, how the hell is housing a sandbox features? You can put it in the most linear, no player created content, game if you want.

What i don't see themeparks do more often is focus more pvp, like RVR. You could have some quests, story isntances, isntanced 5 mans, raids, zoned leveling, but make teh RVR at max level the main focus of the game and where the developement goes. Even TESO is going 50%, if not more for pve since it takes far more resources.

 

Im sorry but since when isent player houseing a sandbox feature? Houseing IS player created content. I thought that was the deffinition of what a sandbox feature is.

 Just having housing isn't player created content.  As with most things it's how you use it.  In early Eq2, player housing was just an instanced apartment.  Oh you could change the color of the wood and decorate it but thats it.  No player created content there.

Now you can build your own house by placing walls/blocks/bricks to make it how you want it.  That is player created content.  However since it is instanced it still doesn't have any impact on the world.  So while more sandbox like, still not sandbox.

Originally posted by xAPOCx

Originally posted by MMOwanderer

Originally posted by xAPOCx

Originally posted by Zylaxx

Originally posted by MMOExposed
 

The most important thing that Themeparks fail to deliver on is or most never try is Player Housing.  Housing is simple the easiest and most development friendly modes of content to create sandbox like gameplay.

But once theamparks start adding sandbox elements doesent it cease to be a theampark?

I'm sorry, but, how the hell is housing a sandbox features? You can put it in the most linear, no player created content, game if you want.

What i don't see themeparks do more often is focus more pvp, like RVR. You could have some quests, story isntances, isntanced 5 mans, raids, zoned leveling, but make teh RVR at max level the main focus of the game and where the developement goes. Even TESO is going 50%, if not more for pve since it takes far more resources.

 

Im sorry but since when isent player houseing a sandbox feature? Houseing IS player created content. I thought that was the deffinition of what a sandbox feature is.

The view on housing differs by personal experience. If someone has only experienced things like Aion and LOTRO, yeah, that's themepark content. If they've never played UO, EVE, SWG, ATITD or even Puzzle Pirates they probably never experienced the scope of housing, which brings to light two things:

• "Housing" is a horrible term for player owned structures because it is a very limited name.
• Wanderer is kinda right that housing isn't specific to any one style. What the player can use it for is.

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Originally posted by xAPOCx

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Originally posted by xAPOCx

those 40 man raids are outdated lower lvl instance so ofcourse they would be easier then max lvl 10-20 mans. I dont believe a theampark mmo would ass 20-40 man lvl 10-15 raids when the gear there goin to farm for will just be out lvled in a day or so.

but that also apply to party dungeons. people dont run low level party dungeons for the same reason.

but there are still party dungeons outside of endgame.

You have to remember that these raid instances would have to be farmed to get the gear from them. with lockout timers and how fast lvling occures in theampark games, raiding ( instance raiding) at lower lvls seems pointless.

But thats the thing. Raids dont need lockout timers. Endgame Raids in themepark MMO may use that to prevent people from rushing the content.

No, it was specifically added to stop people from farming the content. That then lead to the next band-aid on top of that one - dailies.

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Originally posted by xAPOCx

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Originally posted by xAPOCx

those 40 man raids are outdated lower lvl instance so ofcourse they would be easier then max lvl 10-20 mans. I dont believe a theampark mmo would ass 20-40 man lvl 10-15 raids when the gear there goin to farm for will just be out lvled in a day or so.

but that also apply to party dungeons. people dont run low level party dungeons for the same reason.

but there are still party dungeons outside of endgame.

You have to remember that these raid instances would have to be farmed to get the gear from them. with lockout timers and how fast lvling occures in theampark games, raiding ( instance raiding) at lower lvls seems pointless.

But thats the thing. Raids dont need lockout timers. Endgame Raids in themepark MMO may use that to prevent people from rushing the content. But thats not a requirement for a Raid Dungeon.

A Raid Dungeon can work for non endgame use as well. In most trinity MMO, the Tank population is smaller than other role's population.

By packing more DPS per tank per group, the group size goes up, but the same number of tanks stay the same. The dungeon would be large scale, but same difficulty as a traditional party dungeon, since it would be designed that way. Not to be another Lich King/ BWL etc. But to be another sunken Temple, or deadmines, or (insert dungeon name from WoW, since I cant remember off top of my head their names)

Without the "hard" or "chalenging" factor then why would you need a raid? Raids are large numbered groups working together to beat something a smaller group couldent do on there own. Hard content.

Even if there were no raid timers the groups goin into said raid would out lvl the content very VERY fast. So fast that the raid content in question wouldnt mater.

If a gorup of people stayed in this raid instance long enough to get all the sets of gear for the players involved, then they would outlvl the gear by miles not to mention the upcoming zones with quests.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by xAPOCx

Originally posted by MMOwanderer

Originally posted by xAPOCx

Originally posted by Zylaxx

Originally posted by MMOExposed

 

 

The most important thing that Themeparks fail to deliver on is or most never try is Player Housing.  Housing is simple the easiest and most development friendly modes of content to create sandbox like gameplay.

But once theamparks start adding sandbox elements doesent it cease to be a theampark?

I'm sorry, but, how the hell is housing a sandbox features? You can put it in the most linear, no player created content, game if you want.

What i don't see themeparks do more often is focus more pvp, like RVR. You could have some quests, story isntances, isntanced 5 mans, raids, zoned leveling, but make teh RVR at max level the main focus of the game and where the developement goes. Even TESO is going 50%, if not more for pve since it takes far more resources.

 

Im sorry but since when isent player houseing a sandbox feature? Houseing IS player created content. I thought that was the deffinition of what a sandbox feature is.

 Just having housing isn't player created content.  As with most things it's how you use it.  In early Eq2, player housing was just an instanced apartment.  Oh you could change the color of the wood and decorate it but thats it.  No player created content there.

Now you can build your own house by placing walls/blocks/bricks to make it how you want it.  That is player created content.  However since it is instanced it still doesn't have any impact on the world.  So while more sandbox like, still not sandbox.

Im picking up what your putting down but at the same time,imo, still a sandbox feature at its heart. Now how the devs deside to add a feature like hosuing will tell how its used.

Will the devs let us create housing on a scale that would be indictive of a sandbox style or theampark style?

Will housing be open world or instanced?

Will the home have an inpacked on the world?

I still believe housing to be a sandbox featuer. hows its used on the other can change its function.

Originally posted by xAPOCx

Originally posted by Banaghran

Hmm hmm, 

http://l2.eogamer.com/wiki/Raid_Boss_List

Or is L2 now a sandbox? Anyways, what was the question?

Flame on!

:)

i never played l2 so i wouldent know what they would consider raid sise groups and how they work. were raids in l2 open world or instanced? Open world raid bosses i could see for lower lvls but a full blown instance with 10- 15 bosses that have 7 day lockout timers? i just cant see it.

Depending on boss, 16-infinity people, no fixed raid size.

But yes, there were no instances, only later for 80+ people (outside leveling event ones), and i agree, instanced raids are hard for new people and lowbies, certainly harder than creating a zerg, then getting lost in the dungeon before the boss for 2 hours and he isnt even spawned yet :)

So the first thing to be able to do something new would have to be to break the paradigm of weekly lockouts, fixed raid size and mandatory difficulty. Hard to do.

Flame on!

:)