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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » EQ next!! who want punishing death?

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  Torgrim

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 12/15/05
Posts: 2171

11/06/12 1:18:48 PM#101
Originally posted by halflife25
Originally posted by Torgrim
I was red player in UO, I have a pirate alt in EVE and a Trader alt, GOD FORBID I can't have fun in a new released game to feed my MMO addiction.

Is it somekind of crime to enjoy different kind of games in your book?, Can't I do some DE and kill some champs in GW2 and later same evening pod a few players in EVE?, It that something bad in your book, can I only be labled  Gw2 fanboi and totally disregard what other games I have played and playing?

Besides didn't you also played GW2?

 

Yeah i do play GW2 and that is why you won't see me going around pointing fingers and shifting blames on others for current scene of casual themepark MMOS. If i want to do that i will first put my money where my mouth is and stop supporting casual games.

 

 

Not sure how long you have been playing MMOs but I guess 4-5 years.

I've been playing since 1996 and I've seen the trend, I've seen posts from the guy I quouted for many years, not often 10 years ago, they tended to pop up more often for the past 6 years.

So yeah I point fingers beacuse I've seen the trend first handed from trammel to now.

If it's not broken, you are not innovating.

  RandomDown

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/12
Posts: 147

11/06/12 1:26:02 PM#102
Who cares if you "saw the trend first"? You still support that trend while decrying the other people who support it. That makes you worse since you claim to have known about it since it started and was with it from the beginning. You can't say its sad that people enjoy these types of games, particpate in them actively and give them glowing praise, then white and moan that it is the industry standard.
  Tamanous

Elite Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 1788

11/06/12 1:37:06 PM#103
Originally posted by Torik
Originally posted by RandomDown

People say they want death penalties because there is no reason to bother trying to survive. Why isn't the incentive doing it well on the first try or not giving up mid fight? So what if you don't lose experience after you die or undergo significant item decay? I played EQ (a troll, but a warrior, so that helped offset the racial penalty) on release and loved Vanguard and hated how much they reduced the repair prices shortly after release (but that was the least of its issues). 

 

What you're saying is its not worth the effort unless you're punished for not making the effort. I played TOR, WoW, RIft and all that jazz and even if dying had no noticeable penalty it still didn't mean giving up on a boss fight until the last man is down. The fact that you aren't willing to try because there is no penalty is worse than there not being a penalty at all. 

 

Offtopic but the Equipment Expertise was one of the greatest ideas in Vanguard. So sad it got removed too.

I am always suprised by the lack of internal motivation some people seem to have.  They seem completely uncabable of taking pride in what they are doing unless they have penalties for failure imposed on them. 

I went back to WoW recently and every time my character dies, I feel like crap even when the penalties are negligible.  I take pride in playing to the best of my abilities and a death means that I screwed up. 

My biggest problem with death penalties is that they cater to a type of player that is incapable of taking pride in playing their best and would be too lazy to play well without penalties. 

Most people have pride. A death penalty has very little to do with though. Read my post previously.

 

Basically a death penalty plays two roles:

 

1. To provide a system that creates attrition which is a requirement to enforce a victor/loser scenario in both pve and pvp. There must be a mechanism that limits the ability to mad rush content no matter what happens. Die 23 times? Who cares right when you can just bumrush you goal.

2. Virtual world immersion. In a fantasy world death isn't supposed to be taken likely. It SHOULD be written into the lore. You trivialize the world that is trying to be created. There are rewards set in place at every level of the game for being victorious. It is pure ignorance and immaturity to expect no penalties for death to counter that. It ups the stakes.

 

Pride may make you feel bad for a death but expecting to instantly re-enter the battle 5 seconds later with no penalties after another player spent all their time and effort to successfully accomplish their goal (this could be as impressive as a lengthy compaing for keep/regional control or just simply a one on one fight) is just a pure and selfish view. In a multi-player game filled with rewards there must also be penalties enforcing the importance of those goals. Rewards are not rewards without risk of failure. Failure does not exist without weighted drawbacks. There has to be a sense of realism of the game world becomes exacly why I hate Wow. All you then have to do is chain queue dungeons and speed run your way to your goal. Time spent becomes your way to victory ... not fair play. That is not an mmo. That is a farmville game for your iphone.

 

We should also get one thing straight here that many are missing. An online fantasy game who's primary mission is to create a living, breathing and immersive virtual world by definition is NOT for everyone. The entire reason why mmos have become watered down is due to companies trying to increase accessiblity to their game. The act of doing so destroys the concept of the game. Fundamental mmorpg concepts when not compromised automatically strictly defines the genre and alienates players not attracted to it. This is a GOOD thing ... a fucking excellent thing. Why can not the core audience of online virtual rpgs have what they want? FPS shooter players get what they want. RTS players get what they want. Rpg lovers should also get what they want.

 

The industry needs to wake up and to try to stop catering to everyone and build the solid communities that got them where they are at now instead of dismantling them and creating throw away mmo's like we have now.

You stay sassy!

  RandomDown

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/12
Posts: 147

11/06/12 1:51:37 PM#104

1. This wasn't largely related to pvp related death penalties as far as I'm aware. That is a whole other discussion to be had. Who are you to say that the person that keeps dying isn't putting in as much time and effort as the one that accomplished it on their first try? That's far more selfish of an opinion. Perhaps the first simply isn't as good a player as the latter. All you're going to do is create attrition in the player base.

 

2. The lore to deal with it is generally kind of poor if you use the term "death" and you say it needs to fit in for the sake of immersion. Ok, what about AC? Death didn't actually exist. You appeared at the bind stones effectively immortal, how does that mean anything? And EVE, you have clones, clones everywhere. For the sake of immersion, I could care less about death if I'm just gonna pop back up at a rock or wake up in one of my many cloned bodies.

 

Edit: Guess I shouldn't walk away while typing up a post or someone will edit theres and it won't be completely relevant anymore. The reason they are increasing accesibility is because the average gamer is aging and they want to draw in a new audience to the market, that being the younger generations because fresh blood means a new influx of money for however long. As a result the complexity of the systems they will deliver will be reduced to a level they feel is sufficient to entice that market. 

 

You can't expect the kind of funding any AAA would get if you cater it to an exceptionally niche audience, the more you reduce the audience and financial viability of the game, the less wise it is to invest in it, at least heavily. Creating games is a business, which seems to be something people won't consider as the driving force behind it. While there are no doubt many great people working in the industry that love to make games they find entertaining, unless its privately funded it is unlikely you'll get the "super high quality" version of that mmo that you demand, because you won't support the mediocre quality ones when they come along because it doesn't match every facet of your need.

  Yaevindusk

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/05/10
Posts: 1239

Logic, reason and fact do not supersede human nature. Ignorance reigns without justice.

11/06/12 1:52:45 PM#105

 

Depending on how the game is made... I'd like a FFA PVP realm with full body looting.

If it has a grind for gear in raid or whatnot then I'd probably not want the above; UO had it right with the ease of access to player crafted items and the ability to lose everything on your person if you were dumbass at surviving out in the world.

When faced with strife or discontent, the true nature of a man is brought forth. It is then when we see the character of the individual. It is then we are able to tell if he is mature enough to grin and bare it, or subject his fellow man to his complaints and woes.

  Tamanous

Elite Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 1788

11/06/12 2:16:45 PM#106
Originally posted by RandomDown

1. This wasn't largely related to pvp related death penalties as far as I'm aware. That is a whole other discussion to be had. Who are you to say that the person that keeps dying isn't putting in as much time and effort as the one that accomplished it on their first try? That's far more selfish of an opinion. Perhaps the first simply isn't as good a player as the latter. All you're going to do is create attrition in the player base.

 

2. The lore to deal with it is generally kind of poor if you use the term "death" and you say it needs to fit in for the sake of immersion. Ok, what about AC? Death didn't actually exist. You appeared at the bind stones effectively immortal, how does that mean anything? And EVE, you have clones, clones everywhere. For the sake of immersion, I could care less about death if I'm just gonna pop back up at a rock or wake up in one of my many cloned bodies.

You are simply choosing to ignore the issues related to death in a shared play space with others. You also don't play sports do you? Both athletes put a hell of a lot of time into what they do but only one can be the victor. The loser cannot simply say, "Ok that wasn't my best so let's do this again!". No, they may have to wait an entire year to get their revenge or at least until a properly scheduled rematch. This is the nature of sport. It is also the nature of nearly everything like life ... war, work, love, etc, etc.

 

The death penalty in a sandbox simply must be an active system that works along side of the other systems in the game. A sandbox game is entirely about the synergy between these systems. Sure the game could go virtually no death penalty but this isn't without an impact. You effectively have immortal players simply zerging content without some sort of penalty. Typically this is a minor time penalty and possible item decay to slow progress but that is likely too limited in a game space far more open where many opposing players battle over objectives. It is about how sandbox the game really is.

 

A true sandbox is about all systems impacting each other. Death is part of this. It could impact the craft economy greatly. Typically item decay is created to emulate item wear and loss. If you lose items upon death this directly affects the economy is a significant way and cannot be simply ignored because a few players are butt hurt over losing their +1 Toe Ring of Epeen. Trivializing death in a sandbox game risks trivialising the game itself. You may as well start throwing in other conveniences that ruined the genre to begin.

 

A sandbox game isn't your typical themepark mmo. It is about emulating a world, not making a funhouse you run through holding hands with a friend scared of what's around the corner. Certainly opinion comes into play but beyond a certain point an opinion means nothing if simply arguing completely against the core concept of the subject. You may not like wings on a plane because it makes them look funny but they serve a rather important function.

 

I've also already answered your edited point. You cannot cater to everyone. At some point you break the genre you once made. Sandbox games aren't just played by the old school audience who you seem to suggest is about to die out. Attracting new players has nothing to do with how easy a game is unless you suggest new players are stupid, lazy and broke. Making a sandbox game is about not compromising the genre you chose to create a game for. I suggest that death is a fundamental system within a sandbox game. You suggest otherwise. I still have yet to hear how death doesn't impact nearly every other system in a game that is define by it's immense degree is synergy between all systems. I cannot see how one major system that impacts all players can be entirely isolated from all other systems. Prove me that and I will consider otherwise.

You stay sassy!

  RandomDown

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/12
Posts: 147

11/06/12 2:28:28 PM#107

You shouldn't be so presumptious. I played sports for over a decade, traveled more than enough for it, won and loss more than enough tourneys and once again we arren't talking about real life, we are talking about a world people play to experience something other than that.

 

I think the issue derives from the fact we look at the relevance of a death penalty from two entirely different points of view. From a fiscal perspective things like significant item decay and destruction and death penalties interfere with established behavioral systems any modern MMO employs to increase its user retention.

 

You on the other hand are looking at from a gameplay point of view.

 

In regards to the actual OP, EQNext isn't supposed to be a complete sandbox but a hybrid as Smedley said unless he is just saying both which is more than likely at this point, so the argument for that absolute need of death penalties because the interdependencies of a sandboxs systems are what makes it a sandbox doesn't hold.

 

Edit: I don't remember reading the last paragraph of yours but what I'm saying is its not necessary to even have that system in there. While I personally don't mind moderate death penalties I don't particularly care for pure sandboxes most of the time. Did enjoy Shadowbane though. There has to be an ease of gain for equipment if destruction and decay exist. People become attached to those items and losing it can be an extremely jarring experience for the majority of players, especially if they had to invest moderate to significant amounts of time acquiring it. You take that away and you take away a huge sense of the accomplishment of that player which could be the death knell for their subscription.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

11/06/12 2:52:28 PM#108

You know, in-game items didn't really become persistent (never break, never dropable, highly collectible, etc.) until themeparks began to "take off" in popularity and death penalties began to "wuss out".  Death penalties are frequently directly related to how 'harsh' a system's intended to be.

It's usually a mistake to speak to about these systems in isolation.  They're rarely un-grouped from the standard formats by designers.

 

If we can have Breakage back, sure we can have Droppage and Corpse Runs back too.  What we can't really have is the Trophy Case Filled Lockers Goodie Collection Syndrome at the same time.  We're back to mostly-disposable props.

Blizzards itemization-heavy design leans entirely on item persistence (and indirectly on light death penalties/no droppage).

As I recall a lot of those early sandboxes had some really tiny item storage capacity too (drive space wasn't 50 bucks per TB in the way-back, backpacks and lockers were pretty damn small).

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  madazz

Novice Member

Joined: 10/07/03
Posts: 1312

11/06/12 4:43:39 PM#109
Originally posted by ice-vortex
Originally posted by madazz
Originally posted by ice-vortex
Originally posted by madazz

On that note, I hope EQ Next gets a real death penalty. Screw the carebears. They don't even know what they want which is evident by the poor cycles of games that have been coming out.

Yet games that are considered unsuccessful have more subscribers  than Everquest ever had.

And die, and have massive lay-offs, and then upset their small community by shutting down. That's why Everquest is still going strong where as all teh unsuccessful games are shutting down. 

List the modern games that have shut down because they aren't 'hardcore' enough.

I never said a game has to be more hardcore. Though I do understand how you picked that out of what I wrote. I did say screw the carebears, but that was specifcally regarding the death penalty. If I were to re-write things, I would still make the carebear comment, but I would also state that the casual fanbase has too much say and they do not know what they want. They only THINK they know what they want. Which is why, back to my original point, all the games that have followed the cries of the casual fan base have not been holding up so well. Thats not to say that a game that goes in a different direction will automatically be a winner, but they certainly stand a much bigger chance than all the games STAYING THE EXACT SAME AS EACH OTHER!!

So with that said, I don't feel they (games) need to be hardcore, but for EQ Next, I hope they don't cater to the casual fans. They (casual players) have proven time and time again that they are not willing to stick with their own creations. They asked for it, got it, left it, asked for another and then rinse and repeated the cycle over and over. I play casually now a days, but all the new crop of games have no meaning or sense of achievment to me. 

I could turn this around on you and nitpick, but I think you probably understand what I mean better now. Just to make it clear, I am not asking them to stop making your type of games, I am just asking that ONE high budget game be different. Just one! Let us have this!

  madazz

Novice Member

Joined: 10/07/03
Posts: 1312

11/06/12 4:48:18 PM#110
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Neherun

I can't wait for this thread to be swarmed by people with insults to your like of thinking, OP.

 

And yup, I want major death penalties. The game has to offer the rush.

And i don't. I don't play games that i have to replay portions again and again (xp loss).

The solution? Have an option. Like hard core in D3.

In fact, you should play hard core in D3 .. that is the as big as a death penalty can get. I won't waste my time on it though.

Go play D3. Every thread you respond in you bring up D3 as the solution. How about bring up an MMO as the solution? Like oh say... Realm of the mad god? Screw D3 and its 4 player co-op. 

  Kenze

Novice Member

Joined: 4/24/07
Posts: 1235

11/06/12 4:54:14 PM#111

I dont mind a more punishing death i dont like de-leveling but a corpse run and exp debt is fine.
What I hope eqn does is slow leveling way, way, way down. Make it take months of not years for even the most hardcore, 12h a day players. I also hope they limit us to 1 character per server so that maintaining your rep counts.

Watch your thoughts; they become words.
Watch your words; they become actions.
Watch your actions; they become habits.
Watch your habits; they become character.
Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
—Lao-Tze

  Rimmersman

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/15/12
Posts: 911

11/06/12 5:03:45 PM#112
Originally posted by Yaevindusk

 

Depending on how the game is made... I'd like a FFA PVP realm with full body looting.

If it has a grind for gear in raid or whatnot then I'd probably not want the above; UO had it right with the ease of access to player crafted items and the ability to lose everything on your person if you were dumbass at surviving out in the world.

No way in hell is that going to happen lol, you will get a FFA with an updated PVP system but you might as well forget about full body looting.

This is the EQ world not darkfall lol.

  CalmOceans

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 1855

11/06/12 7:11:34 PM#113
Originally posted by Yaevindusk

 

Depending on how the game is made... I'd like a FFA PVP realm with full body looting.

SoE is releasing a game like that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sO07W3mA4I

That's never gonna happen in EQ though like stated.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

11/06/12 7:19:11 PM#114
Originally posted by Kenze

Make it take months of not years for even the most hardcore, 12h a day players.
 

Steepening-slope experience curves, ala 1995.

But--it doesn't work witha raiding game design (where the game is expected to "start at the cap").

Honestly,  if only the 5-percenters are able to devote enough time to get to the raiding game, I'm not interested.

If they're climing an ever-steepening slope purely to have the biggest big number, but it's essentially measuring only their lack of a life...sure.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  halflife25

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/13/12
Posts: 787

11/06/12 7:22:26 PM#115
Originally posted by Torgrim
Originally posted by halflife25
Originally posted by Torgrim
I was red player in UO, I have a pirate alt in EVE and a Trader alt, GOD FORBID I can't have fun in a new released game to feed my MMO addiction.

Is it somekind of crime to enjoy different kind of games in your book?, Can't I do some DE and kill some champs in GW2 and later same evening pod a few players in EVE?, It that something bad in your book, can I only be labled  Gw2 fanboi and totally disregard what other games I have played and playing?

Besides didn't you also played GW2?

 

Yeah i do play GW2 and that is why you won't see me going around pointing fingers and shifting blames on others for current scene of casual themepark MMOS. If i want to do that i will first put my money where my mouth is and stop supporting casual games.

 

 

Not sure how long you have been playing MMOs but I guess 4-5 years.

I've been playing since 1996 and I've seen the trend, I've seen posts from the guy I quouted for many years, not often 10 years ago, they tended to pop up more often for the past 6 years.

So yeah I point fingers beacuse I've seen the trend first handed from trammel to now.

Ultima was my first MMOS. And for someone who has been playing games since 1996 andf longing for a MMO which is not casual freindly devoid of harsh death penalities, not like you didn't have your cup brimming with those and yet you go ahead buy GW2 and white knight for it on daily basis.

But God forbid that someone else doesn't want harsher death penalities in EQ next and you point fingers at him . Sorry bro but you are as guilty.

If you were really miffed by posts like these for last 6 years you wouldn't have spent 50 bucks on another ultra casual themepark MMO..but you did it anyways knowing very well that you are supporting the games which are devoid of harsher death penalities.  So please quit with double standards already.

  baphamet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/05/06
Posts: 2646

110100100

11/06/12 7:56:42 PM#116


Originally posted by JimmyYO
What people always seem to forget about EQ 1 is the lack of overall deaths compared to pretty much every other game out there. You can allow for a big penalty if you're not dying every 5 seconds like WoW. In Classic EQ 1 you could go a whole week without dying once if you're very careful and have good judgement.

So in short, yes I want xp penalties but i also want smart players to die ALOT less like, AKA no mobs with +300% movement speed or other nonsense that EQ1 never had.


you died every 5 seconds in wow because it was no big deal. if wow had harsh death penalties people would have to be more careful like they were in EQ

also, not sure about mobs having 300% run speed in wow but from what i seen mobs were generally slower than you in wow and you could get away much easier.

in EQ if you had no SOW or anything similar, you were pretty much dead if you didn't get a nice head start.

the mobs chased you forever too, unlike wow or the newer mmo's

  baphamet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/05/06
Posts: 2646

110100100

11/06/12 8:03:18 PM#117


Originally posted by Kenze
I dont mind a more punishing death i dont like de-leveling but a corpse run and exp debt is fine.
What I hope eqn does is slow leveling way, way, way down. Make it take months of not years for even the most hardcore, 12h a day players. I also hope they limit us to 1 character per server so that maintaining your rep counts.

if they made leveling as slow as you suggest, i don't think they would need to limit one character per server because people wont just be re-rolling every month or two.

your rep counted in EQ because of that reason and because you relied on other players to advance your character.

IMO EQnext absolutely has to be a big time sink and it has to be group focused.

they really just need to make it like EQ1 was in that regard and it will be fine.

i think the sandbox elements if implemented right should be enough to keep the people who tear through content busy.

  tank017

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/06
Posts: 2206

11/06/12 8:09:23 PM#118

I would like a punishing enough death penalty to make people actually care about not dying..

 

death means nothing but a couple silvers in todays mmo's,its such a miniscule of a penalty that a lot of people shrug it off as 'whatever'

 

or even worse,they use dying as an actual advantage to get somewhere faster,which I find ridiculous myself.

 

so yes,I want a harsh death penalty.Does it have to be as harsh as the mmo's of old? no,but Id like it to still sting a bit.

 

 

  Homitu

Novice Member

Joined: 10/01/09
Posts: 2044

11/06/12 8:24:17 PM#119

I like a death penalty that makes me shout out obscenities when I die and perhaps inhibits my achieving an immediate goal.  

I don't like a death penalty that discourages me from exploring dangerous territory or trying new adventurous things.  

  Kenze

Novice Member

Joined: 4/24/07
Posts: 1235

11/06/12 9:25:45 PM#120


Originally posted by baphamet

Originally posted by Kenze
I dont mind a more punishing death i dont like de-leveling but a corpse run and exp debt is fine.
What I hope eqn does is slow leveling way, way, way down. Make it take months of not years for even the most hardcore, 12h a day players. I also hope they limit us to 1 character per server so that maintaining your rep counts.

if they made leveling as slow as you suggest, i don't think they would need to limit one character per server because people wont just be re-rolling every month or two.

your rep counted in EQ because of that reason and because you relied on other players to advance your character.

IMO EQnext absolutely has to be a big time sink and it has to be group focused.

they really just need to make it like EQ1 was in that regard and it will be fine.

i think the sandbox elements if implemented right should be enough to keep the people who tear through content busy.


well, i think they should limit to 1 character per server for a few reasons..
promotes interdependency when you cant have 1 of each crafting class all on the same server, which would in turn make for a healthier economy. Also if youre limited to 1 per server your actions and what you say mean something when you cant hide behind "unknown" alts

Watch your thoughts; they become words.
Watch your words; they become actions.
Watch your actions; they become habits.
Watch your habits; they become character.
Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
—Lao-Tze

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