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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » EQ next!! who want punishing death?

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261 posts found
  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4834

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

11/09/12 12:01:18 PM#221
I've played several sandbox and I don't think death penalties added to the games depth or mechancis in any meaningfull way.  So no it doesn't impact the other systems IMO.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Ozmodan

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/07
Posts: 6676

11/09/12 12:33:00 PM#222

Funny thread.  First off, Smed did say they were making a sandbox, that means number one it will not resemble EQ1 in any shape or form.  No classes, might or might not have levels, probably will have some good crafting and equipment will probably not drop off of mobs.

I enjoy a good death penalty, trouble is many do not.  You can't have a strict death penalty and keep a high playerbase.  So, if that is something you want, go play some of the indie games that have it.

What is with the OP, he only posted once on this board, let alone this thread?

  Karteli

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/09/12
Posts: 2704

11/09/12 12:37:17 PM#223
Originally posted by Ozmodan

Funny thread.  First off, Smed did say they were making a sandbox, that means number one it will not resemble EQ1 in any shape or form.  No classes, might or might not have levels, probably will have some good crafting and equipment will probably not drop off of mobs.

I enjoy a good death penalty, trouble is many do not.  You can't have a strict death penalty and keep a high playerbase.  So, if that is something you want, go play some of the indie games that have it.

What is with the OP, he only posted once on this board, let alone this thread?

His wording was "sandbox style", which to many means a hybrid.

 

Your speculations are just as good or bad as any others, simply because the details have not been released yet.

Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  Thresh

Novice Member

Joined: 11/06/12
Posts: 58

11/09/12 12:50:23 PM#224
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Thresh
Gotta love the folk with "I have a challenging real-life, I don't want to play challenging game" attitude :) Can I suggest My Little Pony Online ?

 Not one single person in this thread as said or implied that.

What we have said was we don't feel there is a point to death penalties.

Challenge in the game is very different from death penalty.  And IMO dp does not add to the challenge.

Challenge is what happens before and during an encounter.  DP is what happens after I fail an encounter.  The two are mutually exclusive.

edit - I will admit that depending on the design a penalty for dying could make the next encounter challenging, however so far in at least the games I've played that wasn't the case.  It involved either a repair cost, an xp penalty debt, or just waiting for a debuff to where.  Those don't add to the challenge.

 

Couple of people did. [mod edit] Dont get me wrong I see this line of argument everywhere not just this particular forum and it is utter bullshit, have a beer a watch some "reality TV" or something instead. Having to think a little before blidnly rushing an area without estimating a risk factor(ie expected risk should roughly equal expected reward) is not entirely unreasonable.

Mutual exclusivity of two activities you bring up.... Does not make sense in this context, nor independance of two events would(although 2 activities are clearly not independent). Mathematically speaking(expected value of an engaged activity) there should an equal risk/reward factor for doing even A as compared to event B when choosing A or B. Ie event A is perhaps lower level with almost 0 chance of dying vs event B, a challenging event with higher rewards, and with higher chance of dying/incurring penalty (beyond having to press a respawn button).

  Torgrim

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 12/15/05
Posts: 2154

11/09/12 1:09:51 PM#225
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Thresh
Gotta love the folk with "I have a challenging real-life, I don't want to play challenging game" attitude :) Can I suggest My Little Pony Online ?

 Not one single person in this thread as said or implied that.

On the very first page there is such a guy.

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5389416#5389416

If it's not broken, you are not innovating.

  Thorbrand

Novice Member

Joined: 3/06/04
Posts: 1217

11/09/12 1:11:54 PM#226
Only way EQ Next would be worth anything is it was Vanilla EQ with updated graphics. Leave all the hardcore features of the game and delvling. Man how many people today would never get past level 20 if we had xp loss and delvling. It would be awesome to not have to deal with them at end game.
  Thresh

Novice Member

Joined: 11/06/12
Posts: 58

11/09/12 1:22:51 PM#227
Originally posted by Thorbrand
Only way EQ Next would be worth anything is it was Vanilla EQ with updated graphics. Leave all the hardcore features of the game and delvling. Man how many people today would never get past level 20 if we had xp loss and delvling. It would be awesome to not have to deal with them at end game.

 

Lol good old days, I guess those of us grew up back then( ie 8/16 bit consoles) can appreciate some non-triviality. Not having played original EQ I admit, but having played Diablo 2 pre-expansion Hardcore I can fully appreciate such mechanics(back when forced full-game zerging wasnt a productive tactic).

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4834

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

11/09/12 2:33:14 PM#228
Originally posted by Torgrim
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Thresh
Gotta love the folk with "I have a challenging real-life, I don't want to play challenging game" attitude :) Can I suggest My Little Pony Online ?

 Not one single person in this thread as said or implied that.

On the very first page there is such a guy.

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5389416#5389416

 Nope he didn't.  He said he didn't enjoy punishing death.  Nothing was said about challange.

And again you can have very challenging content without a penalty.  Challenge is what happens during and before the fight.  Not after your lost.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4834

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

11/09/12 2:35:27 PM#229
Originally posted by Thresh
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Thresh
Gotta love the folk with "I have a challenging real-life, I don't want to play challenging game" attitude :) Can I suggest My Little Pony Online ?

 Not one single person in this thread as said or implied that.

What we have said was we don't feel there is a point to death penalties.

Challenge in the game is very different from death penalty.  And IMO dp does not add to the challenge.

Challenge is what happens before and during an encounter.  DP is what happens after I fail an encounter.  The two are mutually exclusive.

edit - I will admit that depending on the design a penalty for dying could make the next encounter challenging, however so far in at least the games I've played that wasn't the case.  It involved either a repair cost, an xp penalty debt, or just waiting for a debuff to where.  Those don't add to the challenge.

 

 

Couple of people did. [mod edit] Dont get me wrong I see this line of argument everywhere not just this particular forum and it is utter bullshit, have a beer a watch some "reality TV" or something instead. Having to think a little before blidnly rushing an area without estimating a risk factor(ie expected risk should roughly equal expected reward) is not entirely unreasonable.

Mutual exclusivity of two activities you bring up.... Does not make sense in this context, nor independance of two events would(although 2 activities are clearly not independent). Mathematically speaking(expected value of an engaged activity) there should an equal risk/reward factor for doing even A as compared to event B when choosing A or B. Ie event A is perhaps lower level with almost 0 chance of dying vs event B, a challenging event with higher rewards, and with higher chance of dying/incurring penalty (beyond having to press a respawn button).

 Why can't B even just be more with a higher chance of dying?  That alone is more risk.  Incuring a penalty after you failed the attempt doesn't make the event more challenging.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  rungard

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1037

The Sandbox Foundation does not exist!

11/09/12 2:38:40 PM#230
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Thresh
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Thresh
Gotta love the folk with "I have a challenging real-life, I don't want to play challenging game" attitude :) Can I suggest My Little Pony Online ?

 Not one single person in this thread as said or implied that.

What we have said was we don't feel there is a point to death penalties.

Challenge in the game is very different from death penalty.  And IMO dp does not add to the challenge.

Challenge is what happens before and during an encounter.  DP is what happens after I fail an encounter.  The two are mutually exclusive.

edit - I will admit that depending on the design a penalty for dying could make the next encounter challenging, however so far in at least the games I've played that wasn't the case.  It involved either a repair cost, an xp penalty debt, or just waiting for a debuff to where.  Those don't add to the challenge.

 

 

Couple of people did. [mod edit] Dont get me wrong I see this line of argument everywhere not just this particular forum and it is utter bullshit, have a beer a watch some "reality TV" or something instead. Having to think a little before blidnly rushing an area without estimating a risk factor(ie expected risk should roughly equal expected reward) is not entirely unreasonable.

Mutual exclusivity of two activities you bring up.... Does not make sense in this context, nor independance of two events would(although 2 activities are clearly not independent). Mathematically speaking(expected value of an engaged activity) there should an equal risk/reward factor for doing even A as compared to event B when choosing A or B. Ie event A is perhaps lower level with almost 0 chance of dying vs event B, a challenging event with higher rewards, and with higher chance of dying/incurring penalty (beyond having to press a respawn button).

 Why can't B even just be more with a higher chance of dying?  That alone is more risk.  Incuring a penalty after you failed the attempt doesn't make the event more challenging.

 While i agree that a death penalty doesnt make an encounter more challenging i do think that death is something to be managed just like everything else in the game. Thats why im in favor of a systems approach rather than just a rule for dying.

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7735

Logic be damned!

11/09/12 2:52:23 PM#231

I'd rather a game have difficult fights where my friends/guildies and I die over and over and over before finally getting it right.

If those deaths are too punishing, unless the rewards for victory outweigh the sting of those vast # of deaths, no thanks.

Even WoW got this wrong, IMO.

I remember back in the day tackling WoW heroic Raids where each death would cost me 10-15g.

A victory would net maybe 10g in cash and if I was lucky an item upgrade.

Victory gains weren't even close to the amount of in-game resources invested into that victory after dozens of deaths.

However the personal satisfaction / social jubilation in guild from a hard-fought victory did help make it worth it.

The more you balance the equation of "punishing death vs. rewarding victory" in favor of the "punishing death" part - the more you have to ramp up the "rewarding victory" part.

Simply making death sting isn't enough - you have to make something worth dying for if the death really hurts you.

I also think people greatly underestimate or perhaps don't realize from their own experiences and histories how much death can sting in a repeat-failure situation - and how rewarding a victory can be when it's a long time coming.

I think a really punishing death would only work as a mechanic if even during difficult encounters death was the exception to the norm.

But would that mean the content would have to be easier or would the systems have to be tighter and more skill based rather than RNG and RPG (stat) based?

Now Playing: Destiny

  Thresh

Novice Member

Joined: 11/06/12
Posts: 58

11/09/12 3:16:35 PM#232
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Thresh
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Thresh
Gotta love the folk with "I have a challenging real-life, I don't want to play challenging game" attitude :) Can I suggest My Little Pony Online ?

 Not one single person in this thread as said or implied that.

What we have said was we don't feel there is a point to death penalties.

Challenge in the game is very different from death penalty.  And IMO dp does not add to the challenge.

Challenge is what happens before and during an encounter.  DP is what happens after I fail an encounter.  The two are mutually exclusive.

edit - I will admit that depending on the design a penalty for dying could make the next encounter challenging, however so far in at least the games I've played that wasn't the case.  It involved either a repair cost, an xp penalty debt, or just waiting for a debuff to where.  Those don't add to the challenge.

 

 

Couple of people did. [mod edit] Dont get me wrong I see this line of argument everywhere not just this particular forum and it is utter bullshit, have a beer a watch some "reality TV" or something instead. Having to think a little before blidnly rushing an area without estimating a risk factor(ie expected risk should roughly equal expected reward) is not entirely unreasonable.

Mutual exclusivity of two activities you bring up.... Does not make sense in this context, nor independance of two events would(although 2 activities are clearly not independent). Mathematically speaking(expected value of an engaged activity) there should an equal risk/reward factor for doing even A as compared to event B when choosing A or B. Ie event A is perhaps lower level with almost 0 chance of dying vs event B, a challenging event with higher rewards, and with higher chance of dying/incurring penalty (beyond having to press a respawn button).

 Why can't B even just be more with a higher chance of dying?  That alone is more risk.  Incuring a penalty after you failed the attempt doesn't make the event more challenging.

If the higher chance of dying presented some kind of risk(anything from running X minutes back to your corpse to actually losing some in-game currency[ie sufficient repair costs] which would in turn be equivalent to X* amount of time spent farming) that is equivalent to a given reward... It would make more sense, as opposed to current noob-friendly PvE models where you judge the difficulty of event/area by how many times you die before youre able to make some progress(ie gw2).

  rungard

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1037

The Sandbox Foundation does not exist!

11/09/12 3:35:48 PM#233
Originally posted by BadSpock

I'd rather a game have difficult fights where my friends/guildies and I die over and over and over before finally getting it right.

If those deaths are too punishing, unless the rewards for victory outweigh the sting of those vast # of deaths, no thanks.

Even WoW got this wrong, IMO.

I remember back in the day tackling WoW heroic Raids where each death would cost me 10-15g.

A victory would net maybe 10g in cash and if I was lucky an item upgrade.

Victory gains weren't even close to the amount of in-game resources invested into that victory after dozens of deaths.

However the personal satisfaction / social jubilation in guild from a hard-fought victory did help make it worth it.

The more you balance the equation of "punishing death vs. rewarding victory" in favor of the "punishing death" part - the more you have to ramp up the "rewarding victory" part.

Simply making death sting isn't enough - you have to make something worth dying for if the death really hurts you.

I also think people greatly underestimate or perhaps don't realize from their own experiences and histories how much death can sting in a repeat-failure situation - and how rewarding a victory can be when it's a long time coming.

I think a really punishing death would only work as a mechanic if even during difficult encounters death was the exception to the norm.

But would that mean the content would have to be easier or would the systems have to be tighter and more skill based rather than RNG and RPG (stat) based?

 i dont think your getting death from the whole perspective though spock. I see it as not only a penalty, but also a form of advancement, gameplay and reward. 

in my model since i reduce the penalty aspect to 1 line of 4, the penalty has already been reduced to 25% of that in a traditional game. Further to this , as i live and play (and gain exp), i can use that exp to unlock a number of abilities that modify my game towards the style i wish to play. For instance

We start at rank zero ( remember the penalty only affects this line, other game lines like class are not affected by death)

as i live i gain exp in the line that i can use to unlock abilities. Using a god system there could be something like 10 teirs or titles to get and there would be abilities that could be purchased (according to the god) in each tier.

Your playing the gameand when you get enough exp you can permanently purchase an ability with the exp, but then your exp is spent so you need more. As you build your exp you reach the next tier where you can purchase different abilities and so on until you reach the final tier.

Keep in mind though that you lose exp in this line for dying, and you also lose exp when you purchase an ability. Add to this you can only use an ability where you have sufficient exp in your bar for that rank then you have quite a challenge on your hands to get to rank 10 and get all the abilities. Remember that this line is independant of the other lines. You only lose exp in this line.

i would also put in a 25% gain over time like eve, and limit your decent from dying by 1 level. Thus if your rank 7, you can only drop to rank 6 if you keep dying but you wont get to 8 untill you earn it all back from 6 through 7 to 8. Once you reach 8 you can only go back to 7.

now its no longer a rule, but a system within a larger system of advancement. Since you can choose abilities that affect this line, there would be something here for everyone.

a modern sandbox mmo needs designed systems with depth of play. Every system should have a unique form of gameplay. Add them all up and you have a very deep game.

  xpowderx

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/09/05
Posts: 4249

Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. Richard Feynman, Nobel-prize-winning physicist

11/09/12 4:14:44 PM#234
Im for a punishing death. Similar to the original EQ. As the sense of accomplishment you gain from surviving a brutal set of events usually supercede a death. The one thing many mmos fail to accomplish with e-z mode survival. That truly felt sense of accomplishment and achievement.

MUST WATCH: http://vimeo.com/105072944

  Torgrim

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 12/15/05
Posts: 2154

11/09/12 4:59:06 PM#235
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Torgrim
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Thresh
Gotta love the folk with "I have a challenging real-life, I don't want to play challenging game" attitude :) Can I suggest My Little Pony Online ?

 Not one single person in this thread as said or implied that.

On the very first page there is such a guy.

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5389416#5389416

 Nope he didn't.  He said he didn't enjoy punishing death.  Nothing was said about challange.

And again you can have very challenging content without a penalty.  Challenge is what happens during and before the fight.  Not after your lost.

 

A challenge games takes time to play aswell and this guy clearly don't have the time for it.

If it's not broken, you are not innovating.

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4834

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

11/09/12 5:06:24 PM#236
Originally posted by Torgrim
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Torgrim
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Thresh
Gotta love the folk with "I have a challenging real-life, I don't want to play challenging game" attitude :) Can I suggest My Little Pony Online ?

 Not one single person in this thread as said or implied that.

On the very first page there is such a guy.

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5389416#5389416

 Nope he didn't.  He said he didn't enjoy punishing death.  Nothing was said about challange.

And again you can have very challenging content without a penalty.  Challenge is what happens during and before the fight.  Not after your lost.

 

A challenge games takes time to play aswell and this guy clearly don't have the time for it.

 No he didn't imply anything like that.  You are making assumptions.

He stated:

Older now, with work, a family and a house to take care of, my gaming time is precious and I have no desire to spend that time doing corpse runs or earning back lost gear/exp.

I even tried going back to UO a couple years ago, and the same activities and penalties I enjoyed years ago, just felt like work. These days I want to have fun during my gaming sessions. I don't want to spend my time polishing my e-peen or pursuing grindy activities.

There are many ways to break challenging activites down so they can be done in 15-20 minute segments at a time but still take days/week/month/years to achieve.  He wants to have fun, as do I.  He has no need to grind, grinding is not needed for challenging activities.  He doesn't need to polish his e-peen, that isn't needed for challenging activities.He doesn't want to do CR or earn back lost xp.  Those are not needed to make a fight challenging. 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Torgrim

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 12/15/05
Posts: 2154

11/09/12 6:30:58 PM#237
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Torgrim
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Torgrim
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Thresh
Gotta love the folk with "I have a challenging real-life, I don't want to play challenging game" attitude :) Can I suggest My Little Pony Online ?

 Not one single person in this thread as said or implied that.

On the very first page there is such a guy.

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5389416#5389416

 Nope he didn't.  He said he didn't enjoy punishing death.  Nothing was said about challange.

And again you can have very challenging content without a penalty.  Challenge is what happens during and before the fight.  Not after your lost.

 

A challenge games takes time to play aswell and this guy clearly don't have the time for it.

  You are making assumptions.

 

So do you.

If it's not broken, you are not innovating.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19811

11/10/12 10:42:48 AM#238
Originally posted by Torgrim
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Torgrim
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Thresh
Gotta love the folk with "I have a challenging real-life, I don't want to play challenging game" attitude :) Can I suggest My Little Pony Online ?

 Not one single person in this thread as said or implied that.

On the very first page there is such a guy.

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5389416#5389416

 Nope he didn't.  He said he didn't enjoy punishing death.  Nothing was said about challange.

And again you can have very challenging content without a penalty.  Challenge is what happens during and before the fight.  Not after your lost.

 

A challenge games takes time to play aswell and this guy clearly don't have the time for it.

Says who?

Try to do MP10 on Diablo 3 ... very challenging. Very likely you die in 5 sec. Not a lot of time needed. Very different from dying and have to replay leveling for 10 hours.

 

  Ozivois

Novice Member

Joined: 4/17/10
Posts: 600

11/14/12 3:04:39 PM#239
chal·leng·ing (chln-jng)
adj.
1. Calling for full use of one's abilities or resources in a difficult but stimulating effort
 

 

What's more stimulating than fighting in an area knowing that if you make a mistake and die you are screwed for the next couple of hours?  It's not very stimulating, and therefore not very challenging, when death is trivial.  How many MMOS these days allow you to progress through a dungeon through sloppy zerging since mobs don't respawn in instances anymore?  AoC almost had it right with soul damage except they limited the penalty too much and did not include mob respawns in dungeons. Used to be trash mobs were there not just as a time sink but also as a skill check: trash mobs respawn so in a dungeon crawl if you wiped you had to reclear.  Then, fighting and beating the bosses at the end were a real accomplishment...

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19811

11/14/12 4:21:38 PM#240
Originally posted by Ozivois
chal·leng·ing (chln-jng)
adj.
1. Calling for full use of one's abilities or resources in a difficult but stimulating effort
 

 

What's more stimulating than fighting in an area knowing that if you make a mistake and die you are screwed for the next couple of hours?  It's not very stimulating, and therefore not very challenging, when death is trivial.  How many MMOS these days allow you to progress through a dungeon through sloppy zerging since mobs don't respawn in instances anymore?  AoC almost had it right with soul damage except they limited the penalty too much and did not include mob respawns in dungeons. Used to be trash mobs were there not just as a time sink but also as a skill check: trash mobs respawn so in a dungeon crawl if you wiped you had to reclear.  Then, fighting and beating the bosses at the end were a real accomplishment...

"real" accomplishment in a game? You are beating pixels. It is about whether it is fun or not. If i want real accomplishment, i will work another hour to do more work.

The only thing that is close to real accomplishments in games is e-sports. Other stuff is just artificial psychological drivers to entertain.

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