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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » EQ next!! who want punishing death?

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261 posts found
  odinsrath

Novice Member

Joined: 11/29/10
Posts: 839

11/08/12 5:01:10 PM#201

me!me!me!me!  **raises hand**  i 4 one would love to see punishing death ..it wouldnt be anything like old  EQ without it!

  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4877

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

11/08/12 5:04:32 PM#202
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

I used to watch movies while playing EQ. 

Step 1:  Find blue mob in safe area.

Step 2:  Press auto attack

Step 3:  Watch movie/make sandwhich leave computer for 3 minutes

Step 4: Come back to computer, loot mob.  Repeat step 1.

Really?  I would LOVE for you to give us a good list of what you just said..   What class did you play, what zones and what mobs did you auto attack while AFK?  We'll be waiting

 Monk, Paladin mostly for leveling like that.  Bard required twisting so you couldn't do that, till they brought in /melody.  Played for 3 years, started right after Kunark.  Left just after LDON. Came back several times over the years.  Never got into raids, but all the leveling zones.

Once the bard got melody it was  easier (that wasn't till 04 though).  Zones were gfay, lfay, commonlands, Ro, Oasis, IC, EW, GD, WW, OT, FM, LOIO, FoB.  You name it you could level that way in.  Casters of course couldn't. 

But don't kid yourself.  Other than later raids (after Gates of Discord so I'm told) EQ was not hard.  There were only 2-3 mellee abilities per character and 8 spells that you would not all use in a fight.  Abilities were on timers.  There was often nothing more a melle could do other than auto attack and kick.  Blue mobs were simple.

There wasn't anything more difficult than that. 

But bard twisting was kind of fun before they nerfed swarm kiting.  Strapping on a pair of drums, agrroing all the giants in the FM giant castle and circle dotting them.  So much fun :)

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 6026

11/08/12 5:08:46 PM#203
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by daltanious
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Letting the players choose the penalty will result in the path of least resistance like it always does, and take away from the world feel.

Actually that would just make company would never get money from me. Simple as that. At the end is their decision.

And that woudl make the company get my money. Simple as that. At the end is their decision.

Difficulty levels work well in WOW, and Diablo 3 (in fact, i check, D3 xfire usage has gone UP after 1.05 which puts in monster power system allowing people to choose difficulty).

I always choose a better GAME over a world. "world feel" means nothing to me if it is an obstacle to fun and my abilities to play with others.

It depends on how it was implemented.  If you could choose a path that resulted in less (or no) xp loss and a lower (or no) gold loss but it required extra time through some sort of tiime sink (quests, maze, fight through area), or vice versa where you could pay the xp/gold loss and return quickly then I wouldn't mind that.

Overall I don't like how most steep penalties have been implemented historically because they've been about discouraging risk taking not encouraging smart play.  I also think penalties should scale based on how often defeat is encountered in a given time frame or a given activity.  So if someone is defeated once or twice then the penalties should be lighter.  If they keep being defeated the penalties should increase a bit.  Mostly I would rather see encouragement for smart play rather than focusing on how to "punish" players.  Punishment should be about poor player behavior not because a player just doesn't get the tricks.

Curse you AquaScum!

  Karteli

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/09/12
Posts: 2704

11/08/12 5:12:01 PM#204
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

I used to watch movies while playing EQ. 

Step 1:  Find blue mob in safe area.

Step 2:  Press auto attack

Step 3:  Watch movie/make sandwhich leave computer for 3 minutes

Step 4: Come back to computer, loot mob.  Repeat step 1.

Really?  I would LOVE for you to give us a good list of what you just said..   What class did you play, what zones and what mobs did you auto attack while AFK?  We'll be waiting

 Monk, Paladin mostly for leveling like that.  Bard required twisting so you couldn't do that, till they brought in /melody.  Played for 3 years, started right after Kunark.  Left just after LDON.  Never got into raids, but all the leveling zones.

Once the bard got melody it was  easier.  Zones were gfay, lfay, commonlands, Ro, Oasis, IC, EW, GD, WW, OT, FM, LOIO, FoB.  You name it you could level that way in.  Casters of course couldn't. 

But don't kid yourself.  Other than later raids (after Gates of Discord so I'm told) EQ was not hard.  There were only 2-3 mellee abilities per character and 8 spells that you would not all use in a fight.  And the abilities all had timers on them.  There was often nothing more you could do except auto attack/kick/ Blue mobs were simple.

There wasn't anything more difficult than that. 

But bard twisting was kind of fun before they nerfed swarm kiting.  Strapping on a pair of drums, agrroing all the giants in the FM giant castle and circle dotting them.  So much fun :)

You could do that on most characters at those lower levels & zones.  But it was risk vs reward, so to do something other than the lowest possible blues, you'd have to be more attentive.  Be it kiting, heals, whatever.  Just killing the lowest possible blues was pretty lousy XP, and very slow. (1/1000th of a level per kill?)

 

Bards, casters could up the xp gain from cruddy blues by multi kiting.   Essentially at higher levels you could no longer just stand there and auto attack while afk'ish.

Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4877

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

11/08/12 5:14:08 PM#205
Originally posted by Karteli
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

I used to watch movies while playing EQ. 

Step 1:  Find blue mob in safe area.

Step 2:  Press auto attack

Step 3:  Watch movie/make sandwhich leave computer for 3 minutes

Step 4: Come back to computer, loot mob.  Repeat step 1.

Really?  I would LOVE for you to give us a good list of what you just said..   What class did you play, what zones and what mobs did you auto attack while AFK?  We'll be waiting

 Monk, Paladin mostly for leveling like that.  Bard required twisting so you couldn't do that, till they brought in /melody.  Played for 3 years, started right after Kunark.  Left just after LDON.  Never got into raids, but all the leveling zones.

Once the bard got melody it was  easier.  Zones were gfay, lfay, commonlands, Ro, Oasis, IC, EW, GD, WW, OT, FM, LOIO, FoB.  You name it you could level that way in.  Casters of course couldn't. 

But don't kid yourself.  Other than later raids (after Gates of Discord so I'm told) EQ was not hard.  There were only 2-3 mellee abilities per character and 8 spells that you would not all use in a fight.  And the abilities all had timers on them.  There was often nothing more you could do except auto attack/kick/ Blue mobs were simple.

There wasn't anything more difficult than that. 

But bard twisting was kind of fun before they nerfed swarm kiting.  Strapping on a pair of drums, agrroing all the giants in the FM giant castle and circle dotting them.  So much fun :)

You could do that on most characters at those lower levels & zones.  But it was risk vs reward, so to do something other than the lowest possible blues, you'd have to be more attentive.  Be it kiting, heals, whatever.  Just killing the lowest possible blues was pretty lousy XP, and very slow. (1/1000th of a level per kill?)

 

Bards, casters could up the xp gain from cruddy blues by multi kiting.   Essentially at higher levels you could no longer just stand there and auto attack while afk'ish.

 Not light blues.  Dark blues.  This wasn't casters so there wasn't kiting (except bard early on).  You could solo to max level (was 60 or 65 back then I believe).  My highest was 54, just got bored by then.

and OMG hell levels were just that. 

Actually I started with a druid, only got him to mid 30's though.  It was fun, just far too much down time.  Quad kite, med for 5-10 minutes, quad kite med for 5-10 minutes.  Having to sit high on the hills on the zone edges to escape wandering mobs because I couldn't see for the darn book.

Those are two things I'm glad they changed.   Mana regen faster, and got rid of the damn book for medding.  The book really was a stupid idea. 

edit - and jsut for clarity I did not play that way (leave computer ) while playing the druid.  That was again suicide.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  daltanious

Elite Member

Joined: 4/19/08
Posts: 1912

11/08/12 5:34:22 PM#206
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by ayronamic
Originally posted by augustgrace
I have no desire to spend that time doing corpse runs or earning back lost gear/exp.  

 

Fear of death and corpse running is half the fun! Sure you might not have time for it, but I'd rather be scared than not care, and do my best to avoid death. With greater risk and penalties, the greater outcome should you succeed in something dangerous.

 I've never had any fear of death in a game.  There was always the challenge of not dying in the first place.  Therefore CR were never part of the fun, just an annoyance.

You have found right word, annoyance. Agree in full. I hate to die in game and will do everything possible to avoid. And I'm in pretty bad mood when happen, especially if some my stupid mistake. Even when I know I will die I never (ok, maybe once or twice :-)) just stand there ... I always try to drag with me at least one mob more.

Death penalty would add absolutely nothing but big annoyance. Has nothing to do with thrill or anything, just pure big boring annoyance.

  Random_mage

Novice Member

Joined: 8/15/08
Posts: 1161

11/08/12 5:40:06 PM#207
I want a game that punishes bad decisions. Look at the majority of what we have.. Just zerg attack. Slight time sink in returning to your corpse.. Thats it.. I dont want my finger cut off, but I want to feel like surviving matters. enough with no real pain on death.
if you dont have time for a harsh penalty, dont play. Lots of other games for you. I am not hardcore, but I want to see failure, matter.

Currently playing Real Life..

http://i36.tinypic.com/2uyod3k.gif

For all your stalking needs..
http://www.plurk.com/Random_

  Reeper

Novice Member

Joined: 8/14/04
Posts: 123

11/08/12 5:44:44 PM#208

Punish death, it adds dimension to a game, , hell even Mario had death penalty, what 3-4 lives game over,, make us recover corpses, either by runnen in and sntaching, corpse drag, or high cost Corps summoning( based on lvl)

 

  daltanious

Elite Member

Joined: 4/19/08
Posts: 1912

11/08/12 5:46:07 PM#209
Originally posted by Random_mage
I want a game that punishes bad decisions. Look at the majority of what we have.. Just zerg attack. Slight time sink in returning to your corpse.. Thats it.. I dont want my finger cut off, but I want to feel like surviving matters. enough with no real pain on death.
if you dont have time for a harsh penalty, dont play. Lots of other games for you. I am not hardcore, but I want to see failure, matter.

I see you do not understand other at all. Has nothing to do with time, has to do with boredom.

But make no mistake, I have absolutely nothing if game would have perma death penalty. Just I would not play it. And would advocate strongly agains games i love to play. Simple as that.

I do not care not even minimally for pvp. Once even liked but not anymore. For this reason I would never bother with pvp only games. I'm happy for those that enjoy such game.

Btw, failer for me matter, for pride factor. :-)) I was so angry once that had to buy new keyboard. :-) But I agree, somebody does not care, die, return, ... fortunately usually such players does not stay around any game for long. And my guess is is much more likeli to find reckless players in f2p games. 

  rungard

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1037

The Sandbox Foundation does not exist!

11/08/12 5:48:16 PM#210
Originally posted by Random_mage
I want a game that punishes bad decisions. Look at the majority of what we have.. Just zerg attack. Slight time sink in returning to your corpse.. Thats it.. I dont want my finger cut off, but I want to feel like surviving matters. enough with no real pain on death.
if you dont have time for a harsh penalty, dont play. Lots of other games for you. I am not hardcore, but I want to see failure, matter.

 i really dont think your going to see this in eq next. Those days are gone and players went to other games for a reason. Im not saying theres not an audience, its just not as big as they need to fill the game.

i still say they need to have a very well thought out "speccable" death system that involves the gods such that you can pick and choose aspects of your death penalty, and do it in a way that makes sense in the lore of the game.

Remember that they want to put the rules in the hands of the players in eq next. They wont be able to do that without putting in some ability for customization in a number of ingame systems.

  Karteli

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/09/12
Posts: 2704

11/08/12 5:52:40 PM#211
Originally posted by daltanious
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by ayronamic
Originally posted by augustgrace
I have no desire to spend that time doing corpse runs or earning back lost gear/exp.  

 

Fear of death and corpse running is half the fun! Sure you might not have time for it, but I'd rather be scared than not care, and do my best to avoid death. With greater risk and penalties, the greater outcome should you succeed in something dangerous.

 I've never had any fear of death in a game.  There was always the challenge of not dying in the first place.  Therefore CR were never part of the fun, just an annoyance.

You have found right word, annoyance. Agree in full. I hate to die in game and will do everything possible to avoid. And I'm in pretty bad mood when happen, especially if some my stupid mistake. Even when I know I will die I never (ok, maybe once or twice :-)) just stand there ... I always try to drag with me at least one mob more.

Death penalty would add absolutely nothing but big annoyance. Has nothing to do with thrill or anything, just pure big boring annoyance.

That's the idea.  Make death inconvenient such that nobody would want to die.  Gamers got so watered down with their own watered down games that they forgot what death actually means.  Death should be the result of a severe mistake on the part of the player - one that could have been avoided.  One that will be avoided next time.

 

Making people think twice before trying to run past a group of mobs adds strategy and depth.  It bred a different kind of playerbase; one that was patient and more focused on group activities.

Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  tabindex

Novice Member

Joined: 4/28/12
Posts: 75

11/08/12 5:54:06 PM#212
I do.  In fact, take the EQ1 DP and double it. 
  DavisFlight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2594

11/08/12 7:18:22 PM#213

I have no memories of being tense in WoW clones like AoC and LotRO. There was never any worry about dying. If it happened? Oh well just run back.

 

Some of my most memorable times in DAoC (both good and bad) were trying to flee from a fight after being overwhelmed, or trying to hold back a horde so my group could escape, or just barely pulling off a victory and cheering as we limped to a corner to try to heal.

 

Games with death penalty inspired passion and memories. Games without inspired boredom.

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3480

11/09/12 9:04:29 AM#214
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

I used to watch movies while playing EQ. 

Step 1:  Find blue mob in safe area.

Step 2:  Press auto attack

Step 3:  Watch movie/make sandwhich leave computer for 3 minutes

Step 4: Come back to computer, loot mob.  Repeat step 1.

Really?  I would LOVE for you to give us a good list of what you just said..   What class did you play, what zones and what mobs did you auto attack while AFK?  We'll be waiting

 Monk, Paladin mostly for leveling like that.  Bard required twisting so you couldn't do that, till they brought in /melody.  Played for 3 years, started right after Kunark.  Left just after LDON. Came back several times over the years.  Never got into raids, but all the leveling zones. I played EQ as well, and longer then you did.. What you're doing is cherry picking a certain class against a very limited mob list.. Just because mobs were dark blue, NOT all dark blue mobs were the same.. Some were solable as a melee, while "most" would clean your clock..

Once the bard got melody it was  easier (that wasn't till 04 though).  Zones were gfay, lfay, commonlands, Ro, Oasis, IC, EW, GD, WW, OT, FM, LOIO, FoB.  You name it you could level that way in.  Casters of course couldn't.  Lower the zone level, the easier it is to solo for most classes.. I'd like to see you take your monk or pally and SOLO the wurms in Skyfire...... NOT going to happen pal.. just saying..

But don't kid yourself.  Other than later raids (after Gates of Discord so I'm told) EQ was not hard.  There were only 2-3 mellee abilities per character and 8 spells that you would not all use in a fight.  Abilities were on timers.  There was often nothing more a melle could do other than auto attack and kick.  Blue mobs were simple.  Really?  I solo'd the Elysian Skelly's for armor with my druid.. I can tell you right now.. there is NO WAY on this Earth you can melee solo one of them (dark blue)... You're being somewhat misleading and disingenuous implying that most "dark blue" mobs at end game were solable by melee classes.. 

There wasn't anything more difficult than that. 

But bard twisting was kind of fun before they nerfed swarm kiting.  Strapping on a pair of drums, agrroing all the giants in the FM giant castle and circle dotting them.  So much fun :)  Yeah.. and my druid and wizzies had no issues with AOE kiting as well.. Problem is, you can't do that "AFK" while watching a movie.. can you?

 

  Thresh

Novice Member

Joined: 11/06/12
Posts: 58

11/09/12 10:42:38 AM#215
Gotta love the folk with "I have a challenging real-life, I don't want to play challenging game" attitude :) Can I suggest My Little Pony Online ?
  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4877

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

11/09/12 12:07:36 PM#216
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Rydeson
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

I used to watch movies while playing EQ. 

Step 1:  Find blue mob in safe area.

Step 2:  Press auto attack

Step 3:  Watch movie/make sandwhich leave computer for 3 minutes

Step 4: Come back to computer, loot mob.  Repeat step 1.

Really?  I would LOVE for you to give us a good list of what you just said..   What class did you play, what zones and what mobs did you auto attack while AFK?  We'll be waiting

 Monk, Paladin mostly for leveling like that.  Bard required twisting so you couldn't do that, till they brought in /melody.  Played for 3 years, started right after Kunark.  Left just after LDON. Came back several times over the years.  Never got into raids, but all the leveling zones. I played EQ as well, and longer then you did.. What you're doing is cherry picking a certain class against a very limited mob list.. Just because mobs were dark blue, NOT all dark blue mobs were the same.. Some were solable as a melee, while "most" would clean your clock..

Once the bard got melody it was  easier (that wasn't till 04 though).  Zones were gfay, lfay, commonlands, Ro, Oasis, IC, EW, GD, WW, OT, FM, LOIO, FoB.  You name it you could level that way in.  Casters of course couldn't.  Lower the zone level, the easier it is to solo for most classes.. I'd like to see you take your monk or pally and SOLO the wurms in Skyfire...... NOT going to happen pal.. just saying..

But don't kid yourself.  Other than later raids (after Gates of Discord so I'm told) EQ was not hard.  There were only 2-3 mellee abilities per character and 8 spells that you would not all use in a fight.  Abilities were on timers.  There was often nothing more a melle could do other than auto attack and kick.  Blue mobs were simple.  Really?  I solo'd the Elysian Skelly's for armor with my druid.. I can tell you right now.. there is NO WAY on this Earth you can melee solo one of them (dark blue)... You're being somewhat misleading and disingenuous implying that most "dark blue" mobs at end game were solable by melee classes.. 

There wasn't anything more difficult than that. 

But bard twisting was kind of fun before they nerfed swarm kiting.  Strapping on a pair of drums, agrroing all the giants in the FM giant castle and circle dotting them.  So much fun :)  Yeah.. and my druid and wizzies had no issues with AOE kiting as well.. Problem is, you can't do that "AFK" while watching a movie.. can you?

 

 I didn't say all the classes could do that.  You asked me to name my classes and I did.  And no as far as mobs went it wasn't a very limited selection.  By far the majority of the dark blue mobs could be done that way.  Yes there were some zones you couldn't.  Skyfire was one of them, dungeons were like that as well which was why I didn't say those.  However the majority of dark blue mobs in the majority of zones could be killed just as I said.

Also I never stated nor implied you could do this at end game.  In fact I stated I never raided at all, which was what end game consisted of.  I also stated end game  was around 60 or 65 at that time and I got to 56.  I did state you could solo to end game, and you could. 

In regards to kiting, please finish reading the thread.  I specifically stated I did not and you could not afk fight while kiting.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  VengeSunsoar

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4877

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

11/09/12 12:11:39 PM#217
Originally posted by Thresh
Gotta love the folk with "I have a challenging real-life, I don't want to play challenging game" attitude :) Can I suggest My Little Pony Online ?

 Not one single person in this thread as said or implied that.

What we have said was we don't feel there is a point to death penalties.

Challenge in the game is very different from death penalty.  And IMO dp does not add to the challenge.

Challenge is what happens before and during an encounter.  DP is what happens after I fail an encounter.  The two are mutually exclusive.

edit - I will admit that depending on the design a penalty for dying could make the next encounter challenging, however so far in at least the games I've played that wasn't the case.  It involved either a repair cost, an xp penalty debt, or just waiting for a debuff to where.  Those don't add to the challenge.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  GreenishBlue

Novice Member

Joined: 5/27/12
Posts: 266

11/09/12 12:19:24 PM#218
it's pointless and a time sink; there are many other features that gamers want and these ridiculous death penalties some want will never be considered unless you design your own game

  Ozivois

Novice Member

Joined: 4/17/10
Posts: 602

11/09/12 12:40:35 PM#219

I am for Everquest 1 Death Penalties!

 

Having a harsh penalty or difficult death penalty in a game does not have to be "old school". Unlike controversial open pvp, giving large experience penalties and corpse retrieval in a game is not a deal breaker for player's game styles.

The penalties add an important dimension to the game: fear of death.  By providing that fear to the players the game becomes more exciting, even in the most mundane situation like killing X rats in a sewer system.  With no penalty, if you get overrun by a few rats you just run back and finish the quest.  With the penalty, you got real problems, including the big problem that your quest experience for killing the rats will only retrieve your lost experience rather than advance you.  And, if you die twice, the whole effort nets a loss of experience. Also, how do you get your body out of there with all of those rats respawned down there?? Maybe next time you shouldn't go into those sewers alone...

Additionally, death penalties make a game last longer as it takes longer to level up that way.

MMOs have never been the same since dying became nothing more than a slight nuisance.

 

  Tamanous

Elite Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 1804

11/09/12 12:45:01 PM#220
Originally posted by GreenishBlue
it's pointless and a time sink; there are many other features that gamers want and these ridiculous death penalties some want will never be considered unless you design your own game

Ignoring the fact that you are a hardcore troller of threads (glanced over your post history and had a laugh), you obviously are not on topic here. People are talking about death penalties in a sandbox game. Those are games where every system impacts other systems. Players therefore impact the world and other players far more than in themepark games. Through your ignorance you have already agreed that a death penalty has a funcion ... a time sink. You venture forth in a world where everything is up for competition (resources, territory, economics, pve objectives, pvp objectives, etc). The act of living impacts the world and so does the act of dieing. Death is a system just like every other system in the game. It has to be as significant as living because your entire progression in the world is based on living. Your prize is rewarded by living so death must be equally important or you trivialize the competitive environment for everyone.

 

Within (I assume) your little mini-games in themepark mmos such as dungeon runs (instanced little play zones for the very few with no impact on the game world) you can die and merely lose some time and perhaps some money for repairs but it only impacts yourself and possibly 3 or 4 others. Even then you are penalized to avoid zerging to victory. The only risk in those games is the risk of trivializing content affecting the few.

 

In a sandbox the stakes are much, much higher. There absolutely must be a system of attrition with enough impact on the game to  preserve the balance of risk vs reward effecting all players at once. Large scale pvp cannot simply be respawn zerg fests right after death or nothing can be won. Even in pve this is incredibly important. In fact it is the essense of the entire argument. The entire world environment IS the game. It is what you fight over, harvest resources in, explore through and what fuels the economy. Every gain you make in the game impacts the world and therefore all players in it. At it's most interactive level successes in effective gameplay (aka "living") impacts the world globally. If living is the ultimate reward that affects all then dieing must carry weight. How much weight is the point of discussion. Brushing off the topic in ritalin speak contributes nothing.

 

There may very well be contemporary games with harsh rewards as well but I am coming to the opinion (at least for most western players) that if you haven't played OU, EQ or AC back in the day, you have little to contribute here as you have no first hand experience on how much a significant death penatly can impact a game in beneficial ways. This isn't about selfish complaints over not personally liking death penalties. You aren't supposed to like them but you are supposed to see how they are needed in such highly interactive, world emulating games to make the game better for everyone. Narcissism is rampant in todays society but let's please try to evolve past that.

You stay sassy!

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