Originally posted by FrodoFragins

Your first dungeon experience in a game should not take planning and skill mastery.  It should be easy the very first time and make you want to see the harder dungeons later.

It's a matter of opinion.  I just don't want to watch videos on how to do a non level capped dungeon in an MMO I'm new to.  Especially on the very first dungeon you unlock.  Based on a lot of what I've read, even ANET realizes they need to bring the fun into their dungeons.

I guess it really depends on what your perception of a dungeon is.

For some of us, dungeons are supposed to be some of the most challenging content. The whole concept of having a super easy starter dungeon just seems counter-intuitive to many gamers. However, in GW2's case, they do have this in the form of storymode.

What throw's a lot of players off, though, is that Anet's approach to dungeons is very tactical. It's not unlike if you were to play a strategy game. Most of the enjoyment comes from analyzing the fights, and figuring out how your specific lineup of players can handle each encounter as best as possible. Most games don't really do dungeons this way. In most other games, there is only 1 strategy for each dungeon. You find enough damage / healing / tanking for that strategy, and you just run it. In GW2, each dungeon has many different ways of beating it, and many different combinations that work. Some groups are more defensive, some are more AoE centered, others more CC oriented, or support oriented. Each class brings different strategies to the table, and depending on your combination of classes, there are different ways of approaching each run.

Because the dungeons are tactical, however, the percieved difficulty tends to vary greatly from player to player. Each person is approaching each dungeon in a different way. For example, most players seem to think CM is easier than AC. However, I have met quite a few players who think the exact opposite. For whatever reason, they just can't deal w/ the traps & snipers of CM. However, AC's difficulty lies mostly in the boss encounters, and they can handle that much better. Personally, I don't find AC is that hard. There are some very simple strategies to that dungeon that every class can follow without much trouble. The most difficult part of AC would be the burrow spawning encounters, and that's only due to a glitch in hitting them.

Originally posted by Aerowyn

have you watched youtube video of them? you can see people doing speed runs without a single corpse run in almost all dungeons.. all have mechanics and while some harder than others once you learn the mechanics they aren't so bad.. you just need most of your team on the same page and you won't have the need to zerg run them at all:)

IMHO they are a lot harder to learn at first than trinity based games dungeons but once you learn them you won't have many issues...

It's the same for people who run dungeons who have never played an mmo in their entire lives. things players of other games take for granted.

experienced and long subscribed mmo players to a single game learn every mechanic, every process, every requirement to beat a dungeon. They go so far as to come up with strategies. They work their builds so they maximize the results.

GW2 is no different then any other dungeon run game in this. What I find hilarious is if you try to run a dungeon without addons on WoW for example you are laughed out of the group immediately. If you are new and in a pug they usually will boot you. If you are undergeared they call you a noob.

But, when a game comes out that shakes up everything everyone is used to doing in other titles for YEARS then people complain.

We all know that if they had placed Addons, trinity, gear requirements in this title then everyone and their grandma would be on these forums complaining that it's boring. All you have to do is learn the rules and you'll be okay.

Why is it so far fetched to expect someone to watch videos of other people's runs in these dungeons to learn from them but it's expected in games like WoW?

Originally posted by itgrowls

GW2 is no different then any other dungeon run game in this. What I find hilarious is if you try to run a dungeon without addons on WoW for example you are laughed out of the group immediately. If you are new and in a pug they usually will boot you. If you are undergeared they call you a noob.

Give me a break.  We are talking lowbie dungeons.  Nobody gets kicked out of lowbie dungeons in WOW.

I like damage meters as it prevents people from being carried in harder content and actually allows you to know how much you can improve.  Especially if you're in a group with someone of the same class that does a lot more dps.

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by FrodoFragins

Originally posted by Aerowyn

have you watched youtube video of them? you can see people doing speed runs without a single corpse run in almost all dungeons.. all have mechanics and while some harder than others once you learn the mechanics they aren't so bad.. you just need most of your team on the same page and you won't have the need to zerg run them at all:)

IMHO they are a lot harder to learn at first than trinity based games dungeons but once you learn them you won't have many issues...

It's horribly unbalanced for a players first dungeon experience.  It totally turned me off from doing a single other GW2 dungeon.

so a little bit of a challenge and you quit? even AC explorable modes can be ran through in no time at all

The point isn't if they can be ran without anyone dieing its how any normal player would see it for their first experience without ever seeing a video on the dungeon.

I'm known as a big time GW2 fan but AC is supposed to be pug friendly and the intro dungeon, it is by far not friendly in any way.   It should not be required to study from youtube videos to figure out how not to get ONE SHOT by a normal monster yet the bosses are some what easier " ".   AC is probably the worst dungeon experience I have had in GW2, infact I refused to try any others until level 70+ because of how bad it was the few times I ran it.     Once I did try the others I noticed it was only AC that is horribly imbalanced and not what they advertised it to be.  "PUG friendly"  "Beginner"  Its none of that and it has extremely no room for error for level 30's testing out their first feel of the dungeon.

I love the other dungeons just think they really didn't do AC justice and it has caused a lot, and I do mean A LOT of people to not ever try any others again.

Lol. we humilated the endboss there yesterday, brought some rocks and had 2 guys just throwing rocks on him while the others killed him, he just laid down and died. Had my lvl 50 warrior but was helping some guildies through the dungeon. Try bring a collection of rocks near the bosses and have a player throwing them if you want to really humiliate them.

Use the enviroment against the bosses, rocks rock. ;)

Another thing to remember is that you need good gear that works with your build.

Blue is vendortrash, green is pretty bad. Have gold and see that it has the right insignias on it. This might sound weird to old Wow players, but in most older games you had to gear up for dungeons (well, or at least it helped a lot) and GW2 is the same. Running AC with 5 lvl 30 characters in vendortrash gear is probably more than most gamers can handle.

Put points into defensive stats, it will help you survive. And interupts and condition removers also helps. And see that you can combo some skills with the other players. In a PUG, a small 2 minutes talk about specc will make a huge difference when you tune your character for the group.

And always have food and drinks buffing you, a lot of people forget this but that is a huge misstake.

And while any group can complete the dungeon, a guardian, warrior or both helps a lot. 

The first dungeon experience is indeed rather tough if you dont have an experience player talking you through it. Have a chat with your guildies who run a few dungeons or another experienced player, and if they have the time to help you run through it that would really help a lot but good advice is not bad either.

If you prepare right AC is simple, but a single bad player can of course wipe you many times. They are usually the ones constantly complaining and trying to blame everyone else (harder when there is no healer to blame).

I think you should give it another try, the dungeons in GW2 is actually pretty fun once you learn the ropes. :)

Originally posted by Apropo

The point isn't if they can be ran without anyone dieing its how any normal player would see it for their first experience without ever seeing a video on the dungeon.

I'm known as a big time GW2 fan but AC is supposed to be pug friendly and the intro dungeon, it is by far not friendly in any way.   It should not be required to study from youtube videos to figure out how not to get ONE SHOT by a normal monster yet the bosses are some what easier " ".   AC is probably the worst dungeon experience I have had in GW2, infact I refused to try any others until level 70+ because of how bad it was the few times I ran it.     Once I did try the others I noticed it was only AC that is horribly imbalanced and not what they advertised it to be.  "PUG friendly"  "Beginner"  Its none of that and it has extremely no room for error for level 30's testing out their first feel of the dungeon.

I love the other dungeons just think they really didn't do AC justice and it has caused a lot, and I do mean A LOT of people to not ever try any others again.

Unlike Vistas, videos are not really that helpful with dungeons. An experienced player that helps you and the group out makes the real difference.

But yeah, a level 20 dungeon that is more of a tutorial wouldnt hurt a bit.

imo, story mode should be easier. explorable mode should be for organized and experienced groups, but first time in should be balanced for fresh pug.

Originally posted by cybertrucker

But with no real crowd control, no real tanks, no real healing *that can keep up with the damage being put out*  and the damage the mobs can take on top of it.. Like i said It just didnt seem fun, or really even challenging. Just annoying.

No real crowd control? Dungeons are all about crowd control. Yeah, you don't have infinite crowd control like sheep etc. But you have many knockbacks, you can evade, you can interrupt... Pretty much everyone can.

There are no tanks and there are no healers. Also there are no mages with ultimate crowd control. Everyone needs to play their role and use all their tools and conditions. It's not like "ok mage sheep X" it's about ranger knocks him back, warrior tanks him for a while, guardian shields, thief blinds them... etc. etc. And don't get me started on reviving and combo fields.

All in all it's not about "roles" people need to play, it's about group needs to play as a real team, not 5 individuals with their roles 5 roles.

Dungeons are exactly the way i imagined them after Anet announced there will be no trnity in the game. Think of it, what else can you do with a dungeon if you throw healer class out of the game? The game is completely tilted towards everyone being DPS, playing anything else is pretty pointless. So yeah, in short dungeons in GW2 are BAM BAM BAM, EVADE, DIE, GET RESED, BAM BAM BAM, RES YOUR TEAM MATE, WIN.

Boss fights are the same way. Every now and then, the boss let's out an attack that can 1-shot people. That attack is usually very predictable, but 1 or 2 people in the team usually get cought by it. So they die. And after the attack boss practicaly does nothing, so the game lets you res those people. 10 seconds after, the boss let's that attack out again. And the story repeats itself... bam bam bam, res, bam bam bam, res, bam bam bam win.

Also because there's no healing class, the only way to pass the dungeon is either doing it without anyone dieing (which is really hard) or just res zerging and corpse runing. I can't see how Anet thought their way is any more fun than puting a well constructed party together, that had to have the means to complete the dungeon, with players that do well in their class.

Oh well.

PS: Also I'd like to point out that GW1 elite dungeons were so so so much more fun and challanging, I can't even put it into right words...

Originally posted by itgrowls

Why is it so far fetched to expect someone to watch videos of other people's runs in these dungeons to learn from them but it's expected in games like WoW?

Actually I think you're wrong. Once you know how to play a dungon in gw2, you can easily come up with strategies. It's not about "when boss shouts AAAARGH, we need to run to red circle, if he shouts OOOOOOH, we need to run to blue circle". Bosses have their abilities of course, but you can easily find them out in first seconds of fight and adapt even if you are in the dungeon for the first time.

I think it's not much about learning dungeon... it's more about get used to it. Break your old habits and learn new, as other guys in this thread say.

The only boss I may eventually die to in AC story mode is the last one, if I screw up dodging his big attack. The twins (who aren't lovers I think, but brother and sister) are easy once you understood how they work.

I advise anyone who wasn't impressed by the first GW2 dungeons to run Sorrow's Embrace (story mode). Not only there are quite challenging fights requiring tactics and to pay attention, but the end is just awesome.

To the OP, you're just not used to the encounters. If you know what the bosses do and when you can just flow with it and won't die...

BUT.

You're still five people hogjogging and running around like mad trying like insane to stay alive

AND

you still can't really support anyone. Sure, you plonk down a combo field and some guy with godlike spatial awareness actually uses it to burst out a finisher for marginal synergy. Or you pop a skill that purges some debuffs from the guys around you every 90 seconds or so.

But let's not pretend here. Everything is interchangeable in GW2, nobody really needs you or your skills in a dungeon when he's used to the mechanic.

Its basically a run/tumble/self-purge/heal fest... 

My personal bottom line after 10 weeks is: It's a bad idea to kill the trinity. If you want to reduce wait times and/or supply bottlenecks, just pull a "rift", give people stances to fulfill any role when necessary.

M

Originally posted by The_Korrigan

The only boss I may eventually die to in AC story mode is the last one, if I screw up dodging his big attack. The twins (who aren't lovers I think, but brother and sister) are easy once you understood how they work.

I advise anyone who wasn't impressed by the first GW2 dungeons to run Sorrow's Embrace (story mode). Not only there are quite challenging fights requiring tactics and to pay attention, but the end is just awesome.

Even more lame is that Sorrow's Embrace Story mode is harder then any of the Explorable modes...

Originally posted by Meridion

But let's not pretend here. Everything is interchangeable in GW2, nobody really needs you or your skills in a dungeon when he's used to the mechanic.

 

This is so untrue. Run the same dungeon with newbies and with expirienced players. Then run it solo. Then come back and repeat that statement. Ofc. you and your team mates are very important to complete a task, "the right way".

Originally posted by The_Korrigan

The only boss I may eventually die to in AC story mode is the last one, if I screw up dodging his big attack. The twins (who aren't lovers I think, but brother and sister) are easy once you understood how they work.

I advise anyone who wasn't impressed by the first GW2 dungeons to run Sorrow's Embrace (story mode). Not only there are quite challenging fights requiring tactics and to pay attention, but the end is just awesome.

Try bring some rocks with you and have a player throw them at him constantly, even our worst noob in trashgear (and just over lvl 30) didnt go down even once for us then. Easy as cake.

Not very dignified for a king though, we had my warrior throwing them and smack him with the stock of my rifle in between, he was down or on the way up the entire time ;).

Funny enough was this not a plan tactic, I just brought a rock and the rest saw it and followed the example, they ended up in a big pile at the kings feets.

Originally posted by Meridion

To the OP, you're just not used to the encounters. If you know what the bosses do and when you can just flow with it and won't die...

BUT.

You're still five people hogjogging and running around like mad trying like insane to stay alive

AND

you still can't really support anyone. Sure, you plonk down a combo field and some guy with godlike spatial awareness actually uses it to burst out a finisher for marginal synergy. Or you pop a skill that purges some debuffs from the guys around you every 90 seconds or so.

But let's not pretend here. Everything is interchangeable in GW2, nobody really needs you or your skills in a dungeon when he's used to the mechanic.

Its basically a run/tumble/self-purge/heal fest... 

My personal bottom line after 10 weeks is: It's a bad idea to kill the trinity. If you want to reduce wait times and/or supply bottlenecks, just pull a "rift", give people stances to fulfill any role when necessary.

M

I agree.

I quit after I rand Ascalonian Catacombs the first time, I love dungeons, but it was just plain ridiculous.  It wasnt the challenge it was the fact that you could even use Zerg as a tactic, completely lame, also the amount of health that the trash had is beyond ridiculous

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by FrodoFragins

Originally posted by Aerowyn

have you watched youtube video of them? you can see people doing speed runs without a single corpse run in almost all dungeons.. all have mechanics and while some harder than others once you learn the mechanics they aren't so bad.. you just need most of your team on the same page and you won't have the need to zerg run them at all:)

IMHO they are a lot harder to learn at first than trinity based games dungeons but once you learn them you won't have many issues...

It's horribly unbalanced for a players first dungeon experience.  It totally turned me off from doing a single other GW2 dungeon.

so a little bit of a challenge and you quit? even AC explorable modes can be ran through in no time at all

Uhh yeah, but only in set of best gear and perfect control of your character by everyone in your group. Voice coms help as well.

Gw2 dungeons are chaotic and no mater how much ppl will say get over it or others can do it etc, wont fix this.

I have 500h+ played (majority of it runing dungeons)

Right now im waiting for more content as pvp as fun as it is mechanics wise its not motivating enough to do it.