Originally posted by tom_gore

It would be best if there was no security levels and CONCORD in the first place, but unfortunately there are just too many asshats among gamers to ever make it work.

 

This would not be good at all.  There are already sucide gankers where CONCORD is.  The industry pilots life would be horrible if there was no protection otherthan other players.

EvE needs safe areas because thats where the industry happens, taking a look at highsec you will find most labs and fabs in the stations to be constantly maxed out, which only happens because of their accessability. The production in WH, lowsec and 0.0 is in comparsion quite small and not able to completely fuel the ongoing war there on its own.

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by Slechtvalk

Sorry for those calling my ideas as busshilt, english is not my mothertongue.

 

 

Thank you Tolmos , that describes exactly what i tried to explain before. My opinion, there are more of these players today, since years ago.

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Problem is, the guy is lacking any deeper knowledge about the game and only repeats popular misconceptions.

True is, EVE is FFA PVP in nature, but you have more than enough tools available to be relatively safe if you wish so as well as play the game at your own pace and style.

They are popular statements because they are true, hardly misconceptions. This is, by and large, the "new player experience" for those entering EVE, which is why it is so widely known for not being in any way shape or form newbie friendly. 

I get it- there are some old time players that hate the idea that change is necessary, and fanboys who refuse to accept that CCP can do any wrong, but at the end of the day there ARE parts of the game that are found wanting, and this is one of them. You can close your eyes and wish beyond wish that it isn't true, but it doesn't help anyone out by doing so. Pretending that anyone who claims EVE isn't a perfect game that is completely accepting of new players lacks "any deeper knowledge about the game" is just silly, and only leaves players like Slechtvalk in the lurch without anyone willing to help him out. Why help someone when you don't believe there is a problem? 

Originally posted by Malcanis

Originally posted by Tolmos

Originally posted by Malcanis

From what you're telling us, it's obviously even more urgent than I'd thought that we get new players out to 0.0 where people behave much better as early as possible.

It seems that there's something about an environment where you can be held accountable for your actions by other players without NPC interference that makes people much nicer to each other.

Personally, I would love to see that. 0.0 is safer for new characters than highsec ever will be, and they would be cared for more by their corps. The problem, and likely the only reason they are so afraid of 0.0, are the gate camps getting there. Every time a newb pokes his head out the door of highsec/lowsec into 0.0, it gets blown off. From that point forward they have some sort of post gank stress syndrome or some crap and a new highsecbear is formed. If I had the raw isk and manpower, I'd devote all my time to keep gates clean just so we can get newbs out of highsec ASAP and shuffle them off into 0.0.

In fact, my only real issue with 0.0, and the reason I don't actively support ridding ourselves of highsec entirely, is because 0.0 is just too big. Hard to find good combat there. At least highsec/lowsec gives us a chaotic centerpoint to all cram into when we want a good rumble.

If there was a way to get newbs into 0.0 as soon as possible, I'd be all for it.

 

Please stop spreading this lie. I routinely fly in and out of 0.0, and it's realtively rare for the enterance to be camped. I hope you're not one of those guys that hangs out in NPC corp chat and tells new players that this is what happens?

Some 0.0 gateways are nearly always camped, but many more aren't. Gateways into null are by definition regional gates and those things are massive. It takes a large and well organised gang to effectively camp one.

As for lo-sec I can scarcely remember the last time I saw a camp, and I fly between Rens and Jita.

You can't have it both ways: either 0.0 is always total helldeath or its largely empty.

A ) I don't have to tell them anything. They figure this out on their own when they try to step out of highsec/lowsec

B ) It IS possible to have it both ways- the gates are total helldeath, and the rest is largely empty.

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Originally posted by Tolmos

They are popular statements because they are true, hardly misconceptions. 

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They are popular because they are often repeated, regardless whether they are true or not.

ie. Einstein did not fail in math at school, or modern image of Santa Claus was not created by Coca-Cola, etc. - common misconceptions just like your parroting untruths about EVE Online.

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by Tolmos

 

They are popular statements because they are true, hardly misconceptions. 

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They are popular because they are often repeated, regardless whether they are true or not.

ie. Einstein did not fail in math at school, or modern image of Santa Claus was not created by Coca-Cola, etc. - common misconceptions just like your parroting untruths about EVE Online.

Then what of the large numbers of people experiencing these "misconceptions"? Saying something is not true just because you don't want it to be doesn't change player experience. And considering this is quite a common occurance, I'd say it shoots the "misconception" and it being popular only because it is repeated theory right on out that window. 

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Originally posted by Tolmos

Then what of the large numbers of people experiencing these "misconceptions"? Saying something is not true just because you don't want it to be doesn't change player experience. And considering this is quite a common occurance, I'd say it shoots the "misconception" and it being popular only because it is repeated theory right on out that window.

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You apparently have issue to understand what misconception is...

That is whole point, there is no large amount of people experiencing things you describe because things are not that way - that is why they are misconception.

Originally posted by Tolmos

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by Slechtvalk

Sorry for those calling my ideas as busshilt, english is not my mothertongue.

 

 

Thank you Tolmos , that describes exactly what i tried to explain before. My opinion, there are more of these players today, since years ago.

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Problem is, the guy is lacking any deeper knowledge about the game and only repeats popular misconceptions.

True is, EVE is FFA PVP in nature, but you have more than enough tools available to be relatively safe if you wish so as well as play the game at your own pace and style.

They are popular statements because they are true, hardly misconceptions. This is, by and large, the "new player experience" for those entering EVE, which is why it is so widely known for not being in any way shape or form newbie friendly. 

I get it- there are some old time players that hate the idea that change is necessary, and fanboys who refuse to accept that CCP can do any wrong, but at the end of the day there ARE parts of the game that are found wanting, and this is one of them. You can close your eyes and wish beyond wish that it isn't true, but it doesn't help anyone out by doing so. Pretending that anyone who claims EVE isn't a perfect game that is completely accepting of new players lacks "any deeper knowledge about the game" is just silly, and only leaves players like Slechtvalk in the lurch without anyone willing to help him out. Why help someone when you don't believe there is a problem? 

I started EvE back at a time when Concord damage was tankable, corps dedicated to new players did not exist, and you better spent the first month training learning skills. There was no tracking penalty on guns, and no stacking penalty on damage modules and no cloak after jumping a gate. You got literally blown out of the sky right in 1.0 without the offender dieing. And when a GM finally did show up ... he got shot aswell.

I find your assessment ludicrous. You have a walk in the park now compared to back then. No matter how easy or safe you make it, there will always be some idiot managing to kill himself, send some scammer all his money or fail to find the undock button. You can't make it failsafe, because idiots walk among us.

In 8 years of eve i can count on a single hand the times i have been killed in highsec. If you constantly find yourself getting killed, its your own damn fault. Not once have i died and blamed someone else for it, because every single time it was my own damn fault/negligence. Don't try to change the game just because you suck at it. Go play another game instead. I mean i suck at poker, but do i go and lobby for a change to the rules so i get better at it? No that would be stupid, i just play another cardgame.

If EvE didn't have its nonconsensual pvp elements(and yes asshattery, because thats just an ugly expression of free will) it would be the most boring game ever. And if everyone would be forced to be nice to each other through gamemechanics or ToS changes ... god dammit then it would just be hello kitty online with spaceships.

What we can do, is make it more accessible, by making rules more clear or mark out bad people so they get recognized(i.e. by a bounty system that you can't game) by new players. Can flipping isn't nice. But the kind of player that doesn't fall for it once, or even twice, but over and over again ... well im sorry but i don't think EvE is a game he would enjoy anyway.

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by Tolmos

Then what of the large numbers of people experiencing these "misconceptions"? Saying something is not true just because you don't want it to be doesn't change player experience. And considering this is quite a common occurance, I'd say it shoots the "misconception" and it being popular only because it is repeated theory right on out that window.

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You apparently have issue to understand what misconception is...

That is whole point, there is no large amount of people experiencing things you describe because things are not that way - that is why they are misconception.

lol we could go in circles like this all day long. That's fine- close your eyes and ears and pretend like none of it is true. Everyone who experiences it must just be delusional and repeating things they heard from others, right? No way something like that could happen in the soft, friendly winter wonderland that is EVE, right?

It's fine. There are those willing to help, and that's all that matters. Everyone else can just go on pretending like EVE has no issues and fighting the truth every step of the way.

Originally posted by Tolmos

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by Tolmos

Then what of the large numbers of people experiencing these "misconceptions"? Saying something is not true just because you don't want it to be doesn't change player experience. And considering this is quite a common occurance, I'd say it shoots the "misconception" and it being popular only because it is repeated theory right on out that window.

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You apparently have issue to understand what misconception is...

That is whole point, there is no large amount of people experiencing things you describe because things are not that way - that is why they are misconception.

lol we could go in circles like this all day long. That's fine- close your eyes and ears and pretend like none of it is true. Everyone who experiences it must just be delusional and repeating things they heard from others, right? No way something like that could happen in the soft, friendly winter wonderland that is EVE, right?

It's fine. There are those willing to help, and that's all that matters. Everyone else can just go on pretending like EVE has no issues and fighting the truth every step of the way.

Its not an issue, its a feature. Don't blame CCP for internet dickheads and human nature.

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Originally posted by Tolmos

lol we could go in circles like this all day long.

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There is no circle, you simply cannot prove your point...

On the other hand, I can effectively guide your through all your issues because I have done it, just like many people before.

Eve can be very safe, if you know what you are doing, that is just a fact. The trouble is in getting the know how.

I have more than three years in, almost exclusively spent in null and low sec. Never died in high sec. I also almost never die unless willingly entering a combat and I tend to travel a lot. Last time I died to a gate camp was after a huge error when I warped to a unscouted gate with 300 angry Russians on grid (I assumed they were at a nearby pos). They were probably even more suprised to see me than I was to see them. I got my pod out, not even kidding. 

(BTW, you could also make the case that I am a risk averse coward and you would probably be right, but that is besides the point. Eve is very safe if you don't want to be caught.)

Part of the problem for CCP certainly is the NGE effect that sony so aptly demonstrated with SWG.

There are plenty old player like me, who played eve on and off for 8+ years now. Im not kidding you, every time i go back to the game i meet some of the people that i met in my very first corp in eve. We are some of the most loyal customers known to MMO kind. Changing the game in fundamental ways, risking to alienate those customers in the hope that you will attract completely new ones, is one hell of a gamble.

CCP has to be very careful in making EvE more attractive to new players, while at the same time keeping the interest of their older current players. Personally i feel CCP is doing a fine job with this.

P.S.: If you see a new player in local, getting scammed/canflipped etc, how about you strike up a convo and explain him wtf is going on and how he can avoid it? If you just stand by and watch you are part of the problem, because you are part of the community you criticize. But then again, if you where one of those helping new players and making eve a better place for them you couldn't complain in forums how nasty eve is to new players, could you?

Also i can't believe this hasn't been posted alread here, from CCP with love. Your loosing imaginary spaceships, HTFU.

Edit: 

• A number of “Are you sure?” dialogs relating to committing illegal actions have been removed, and replaced with a Safety Switch system.
• The safety switch has three levels: Full, Partial, and Off. The safety level can be set at any time via the new button on the ship HUD UI.
• At login, the safety will always reset to Full.
• Full Safety will prevent your ship from performing any action that results in a Suspect or Criminal flag.
• Partial Safety will prevent your ship from performing any action that results in a Criminal flag, but will allow any Suspect acts without any further confirmation whatsoever.
• Turning safeties off will mean that your ship will perform any action without further confirmation, even if that action will result in a Criminal or Suspect flag. Note that turning this off in high-sec will mean you can very easily become a target for CONCORD. You are fully responsible for what you do with this button!

I have some resources you might find useful.

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ - This is a flow chart of the possibilties of things you can do in EvE, clicking them reveals more information about that path.

http://www.isktheguide.com/ - This is a PDF of a comprehensive guide to EvE. 

http://diaries-of-a-space-noob.blogspot.com/2012/06/day-one.html - a small blog of a new users experience from day one. Players have said this actually helped them in some way--hopefully it does you.

Also, head over to http://reddit.com/r/eve. They are pretty helpful most times, and the side-bar containts a host of good FAQ's, tutorials,  and even a reddit corp.

Originally posted by Malcanis

Originally posted by Tolmos

Originally posted by Malcanis

From what you're telling us, it's obviously even more urgent than I'd thought that we get new players out to 0.0 where people behave much better as early as possible.

It seems that there's something about an environment where you can be held accountable for your actions by other players without NPC interference that makes people much nicer to each other.

Personally, I would love to see that. 0.0 is safer for new characters than highsec ever will be, and they would be cared for more by their corps. The problem, and likely the only reason they are so afraid of 0.0, are the gate camps getting there. Every time a newb pokes his head out the door of highsec/lowsec into 0.0, it gets blown off. From that point forward they have some sort of post gank stress syndrome or some crap and a new highsecbear is formed. If I had the raw isk and manpower, I'd devote all my time to keep gates clean just so we can get newbs out of highsec ASAP and shuffle them off into 0.0.

In fact, my only real issue with 0.0, and the reason I don't actively support ridding ourselves of highsec entirely, is because 0.0 is just too big. Hard to find good combat there. At least highsec/lowsec gives us a chaotic centerpoint to all cram into when we want a good rumble.

If there was a way to get newbs into 0.0 as soon as possible, I'd be all for it.

 

Please stop spreading this lie. I routinely fly in and out of 0.0, and it's realtively rare for the enterance to be camped. I hope you're not one of those guys that hangs out in NPC corp chat and tells new players that this is what happens?

Some 0.0 gateways are nearly always camped, but many more aren't. Gateways into null are by definition regional gates and those things are massive. It takes a large and well organised gang to effectively camp one.

As for lo-sec I can scarcely remember the last time I saw a camp, and I fly between Rens and Jita.

You can't have it both ways: either 0.0 is always total helldeath or its largely empty.

That's my experience as well.  For instance, PF-346 in Syndicate has gate to high sec (Orvolle) which is routinely camped.

As for low sec gates, Old Man Star to Villore gate has camps on it fairly often.  Rancor has both of its gates routinely camped.  Tama is home to a few fac wars corps and some pirates so it can be dangerous passing through.

Yeah as a general rule of thumb, you want to avoid the 0.0 <-> hi-sec gateway systems; PF-, EC-, HED-, etc. I frequently fly through Doril, which has 6 or 7 lo-sec systems between it and hi-sec and rarely have any problems.

One piece of advise that it is worth giving to new players looking to venture into 0.0 is to make their first couple of trips in a very fast frigate with a cloak and at least 1 WCS (Vigils used to be great for this) and scout around, make bookmarks, etc. Then once they have a little experience in moving around, evading gatecamps & so on, they can bring a "real" ship with some confidence.

But most of all, why even try it solo? Make a friend. Join a corp. Get someone to scout for you.

Actually you can just open the map, and set the filter to highlight kills in the last 24 hours, and kills in the last 1 hour. Then Check average pilots in space(most 0.0 border system have no stations) and you have your bases about 90% covered. The last 10% are basically a very recent camp that just set up, or a gang on the way to highsec arriving as you jump in. Those are the cases you need a scouting alt for zo completely rule out, however if your a resident and know the area your going into ... i usually don't even bother with a scout, map and traffic is enough.

Oh and it also helps to wait for someone else to jump through and then go through slightly later. Chances are the methods above will only make you miss a small camp, in which wait till the other guy gets decloaked, count to three and then warp out. Decent chance to get through with that in a small camp especially if you timed your jumpin so that there is only one gate activation animation, the tacklers will all be racing to the other guy, takes time to assess the new situation and act on it.

Oh, and always, always llock targets in situations like these. Look like you mean buisness, choose a celestial object that has you aligning towards them while accelerating to warp and if it looks dangerous enough launch drones(remember your actually trying to warp out here). All of which gets you a lower priority to get tackle on, and depending on ship people will actively avoid tackling you(i.e. something with ACs), especially if it looks like your about to engage anyway(priority tackle are people who try to flee). Also never warp to 0 or 15km of anything, i rather take my chances warping to a random moon at 100km than trying to go for a planet or another gate.

While in warp to that moon open your people and places and make a bookmark before you enter high speed, and one while your still at high speed but within the last 1/3 of the travel distance, upon reaching the moon immediatly align to that Bookmark, open your directional scanner and check wether they are chasing or not(look for probes!). After max 20 sec you warp to your bookmark regardless of wether it seems like the hunt you or not(make them waste a scancycle at best). While on the way towards your bookmark, make a second one. At your first BM use your directional scanner to assess near pos, and narrow it down to interesting planets. Your going to take one more chance and warp to some celestial object, thats as far away from anywhere you have been in the system yet but still inside your onboard scanner range, and make 2 BMs on the way.

Get back to the second last BM, and do directional scans. Your are going to keep moving, but your not going to ever visit the same BM twice, whenever you warp to one of your BMs, delete it while still enroute and make a new one while deccelerating. You are now safe(aslong as you keep moving)! Also you have a BM near the gate which you can use to check wether they have a bubble set up, have fun!