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EVE Online

EVE Online 

Jita (General)  » New Player Friendly?

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76 posts found
  Rocketeer

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/07/04
Posts: 1310

12/01/12 2:38:33 PM#41
Originally posted by n3v3rriv3r
Originally posted by Eleazaros

I'll give you an old quote of mine that I actually used in game on about my second week playing...  3 or 4 of us were pulled out of the rookie help channel into a private channel with a couple "recuriters".  They offered each of us half a million or so isk each if we'd join up with their "new" corporation with a POS in lowsec - if we'd just come down to it to sign up.

I typed this into the channel, everyone lost it laughing -- none of us newbies went down there.

Think of yourself as a small child released into a park full of pedophiles. If anyone offers you anything that requires you to meet them, don't be surprised at what you actually get from the encounter.

Welcome to EVE online.  Pick your friends with care.  There are good groups in the game but trust is a tough thing to work with in this world.

Lol, so true. No it is not new player friendly. It is a good game but.... you have to deal with it ... you will be a prey.

Dynamic, sometimes exciting, other times dull - it is just like how you make it.

You see, it is like in a real capitalistic world with the only difference: in Eve you can remake yourself again and again. If you are  a loser in real world maybe you will succeed in Eve - they offer you a playground where the same mind games are played as in real life but nobody is physically hurt.

 

Until you go to fanfest in iceland and try some of the local food specialities that is. 

  Tolmos

Novice Member

Joined: 8/26/10
Posts: 131

12/02/12 5:06:43 AM#42
If the game were any kind of new player friendly, it would have a lot larger pop than it does. CCP struggles constantly to try to make it better, but many of the long term players fight them tooth and nail, desperately afraid they will lose their game given superiority over the "lesser" players. Not all though- some of us try desperately to convince CCP to make it easier and more appealing to new players, even at the cost of the bonuses and benefits that we older players get. Because at the end of the day- new players = more people to fight. No new players means we will slowly dwindle in population until there is no one left to kill :(

http://imgur.com/a/kU0qS
Players of Balmung- a compilation of different characters I've come across during my adventures in FFXIV ARR.

  ObiClownobi

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/12
Posts: 189

12/02/12 6:44:40 AM#43

I like EvE because its not new player friendly, in WoW/SWTOR/Rift/insert other game, you are a success from the 1st second when you save the village by killing the wolves roaming the field nearby.

In EvE you are a nobody in a shitty ship with no power, no contacts in a hostile environment, what happens after that is entirely up to you and how you react to events and learn from them, I find it refreshing, but it is not nice, not safe and you have to make yourself into the hero/villain by your own actions and competing against others.


"It's a sandbox, if you are not willing to create a castle then all you have is sand" - jtcgs

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6908

12/02/12 8:05:30 AM#44


Originally posted by Tolmos

If the game were any kind of new player friendly, it would have a lot larger pop than it does.

Can you somehow back up this claim?

  Malcanis

Novice Member

Joined: 8/17/09
Posts: 3202

"A very special kind of stupidity"

12/02/12 8:47:07 AM#45
Originally posted by Tolmos
If the game were any kind of new player friendly, it would have a lot larger pop than it does. CCP struggles constantly to try to make it better, but many of the long term players fight them tooth and nail, desperately afraid they will lose their game given superiority over the "lesser" players. Not all though- some of us try desperately to convince CCP to make it easier and more appealing to new players, even at the cost of the bonuses and benefits that we older players get. Because at the end of the day- new players = more people to fight. No new players means we will slowly dwindle in population until there is no one left to kill :(

 

Hi there, it looks like you're winning pretty hard against that strawman.

There are basically no players who are against making things better for new players. There are however plenty of old players who are more than willing to try and get CCP to make horrifyingly game-breaking changes to EVE that would just happen to be to their enormous benefit, and then they try and pretend that "it's for the new players".

Give me liberty or give me lasers

  Tolmos

Novice Member

Joined: 8/26/10
Posts: 131

12/02/12 3:32:37 PM#46
Originally posted by Malcanis
Originally posted by Tolmos
If the game were any kind of new player friendly, it would have a lot larger pop than it does. CCP struggles constantly to try to make it better, but many of the long term players fight them tooth and nail, desperately afraid they will lose their game given superiority over the "lesser" players. Not all though- some of us try desperately to convince CCP to make it easier and more appealing to new players, even at the cost of the bonuses and benefits that we older players get. Because at the end of the day- new players = more people to fight. No new players means we will slowly dwindle in population until there is no one left to kill :(

 

Hi there, it looks like you're winning pretty hard against that strawman.

There are basically no players who are against making things better for new players. There are however plenty of old players who are more than willing to try and get CCP to make horrifyingly game-breaking changes to EVE that would just happen to be to their enormous benefit, and then they try and pretend that "it's for the new players".

Removal of learning skills was one of the biggest boons to new players. Instead of arbitrarily wasting months training up 5s in the basic and advanced learning skills like the rest of us had to do, they could jump right into bettering their character.  Reaction from majority of older players? "OMG THE WORLD IS COMING TO AN END! WE HAD TO DO IT THEY SHOULD, TOO!"

Improvements to highsec can flipping mechanics would be a massive boon to new players. The only people who fall for it are new players (even a completely smashed, drunk off his ass veteran player wouldn't come close to falling for that), and what they lose often costs them everything they've made since they started playing (which isn't much, but to them is a lot). Reaction from majority of older players? "OMG THE WORLD IS COMING TO AN END! ARE YOU TRYING TO TURN THIS INTO WOW?! LETS JUST HAVE IT ASK IF ITS OK FOR ME TO KILL THEM WHILE WE'RE AT IT!"

The game has been out for how long now? There are people with over 100,000,000 SP. The majority of posts on character bazaar are for 30mil+. However, new players are only given 2x boost to 1.6 million SP. 6 years ago this was great. But now? It would be a massive boon to new players to have boosted to 10mil. It would assist them in preparing for small ship combat, but still limit large ship combat to older players. Reaction from majority of older players? "OMG THE WORLD IS COMING TO AN END! WHY DON'T YOU JUST HAND OUT 100,000,000 SP CHARS TO EVERYONE WHO ROLLS A NEW TOON. GIVE THEM A TITAN WHILE YOU ARE AT IT!"

Suicide ganking was a carebear vets way of pretending like he could PvP, by controlling his losses completely and still killing targets that can't fight back. CCP began making this harder, forcing suiciders to actually incur sizeable losses. Reaction from majority of older players? "OMG THE WORLD IS COMING TO AN END! LETS JUST MAKE ALL PVP CONSENSUAL ACROSS THE WHOLE GAME WHILE WE'RE AT IT!"

Those are just a few of the examples. There are only a small handful of vet players that want to see the game become more friendly for new players, while still keeping its non-consensual PvP elements in low sec and nullsec (though mostly low, since nullsec is by and large more safe than highsec ever will be due to its size, and despite how much nullbears QQ to the opposite). It's being fought tooth and nail, but CCP seems to be on our side. It's just taking time.

http://imgur.com/a/kU0qS
Players of Balmung- a compilation of different characters I've come across during my adventures in FFXIV ARR.

  Rocketeer

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/07/04
Posts: 1310

12/02/12 4:20:57 PM#47
Originally posted by Tolmos
Originally posted by Malcanis
Originally posted by Tolmos
If the game were any kind of new player friendly, it would have a lot larger pop than it does. CCP struggles constantly to try to make it better, but many of the long term players fight them tooth and nail, desperately afraid they will lose their game given superiority over the "lesser" players. Not all though- some of us try desperately to convince CCP to make it easier and more appealing to new players, even at the cost of the bonuses and benefits that we older players get. Because at the end of the day- new players = more people to fight. No new players means we will slowly dwindle in population until there is no one left to kill :(

 

Hi there, it looks like you're winning pretty hard against that strawman.

There are basically no players who are against making things better for new players. There are however plenty of old players who are more than willing to try and get CCP to make horrifyingly game-breaking changes to EVE that would just happen to be to their enormous benefit, and then they try and pretend that "it's for the new players".

Removal of learning skills was one of the biggest boons to new players. Instead of arbitrarily wasting months training up 5s in the basic and advanced learning skills like the rest of us had to do, they could jump right into bettering their character.  Reaction from majority of older players? "OMG THE WORLD IS COMING TO AN END! WE HAD TO DO IT THEY SHOULD, TOO!"

I would be interested how you evaluated what the majority of vets thought about this, most people i talked to with back then where either in favor of it or didn't care. A vocal minority making an ass out of themselves on forums does not make a majority.

Improvements to highsec can flipping mechanics would be a massive boon to new players. The only people who fall for it are new players (even a completely smashed, drunk off his ass veteran player wouldn't come close to falling for that), and what they lose often costs them everything they've made since they started playing (which isn't much, but to them is a lot). Reaction from majority of older players? "OMG THE WORLD IS COMING TO AN END! ARE YOU TRYING TO TURN THIS INTO WOW?! LETS JUST HAVE IT ASK IF ITS OK FOR ME TO KILL THEM WHILE WE'RE AT IT!"

Yeah lets paint everything black and white. Thing is its just not as simple as doing "Improvements to highsec canflipping", what people wanted changed is how looting and stealing works, if you mess with that it will spill over into a countless numbers of situations besides canflipping. If you have a proposal that will actually only affect canflipping im all ears. Lets also keep in mind that CCP wants people to encourage to group up with other players, which makes mining considerably safer.

The game has been out for how long now? There are people with over 100,000,000 SP. The majority of posts on character bazaar are for 30mil+. However, new players are only given 2x boost to 1.6 million SP. 6 years ago this was great. But now? It would be a massive boon to new players to have boosted to 10mil. It would assist them in preparing for small ship combat, but still limit large ship combat to older players. Reaction from majority of older players? "OMG THE WORLD IS COMING TO AN END! WHY DON'T YOU JUST HAND OUT 100,000,000 SP CHARS TO EVERYONE WHO ROLLS A NEW TOON. GIVE THEM A TITAN WHILE YOU ARE AT IT!"

New players would neither be able to afford, nor being able to handle advanced ships and their combat/fitting. Going through progresssion while slowly getting stronger is meant to blunt the already steep learning curve that eve has. It means that the stupid mistakes every new player does in his first days of playtime happen in cheap affordable ships that can be replaced by doing a couple lvl 1 or 2 missions. If your a fast learner, and somehow have so much ISK that you can afford the advanced ships, nothing is stopping you from buying a char that has the skills you want. If you can't afford such a char, you couldn't afford T3s and caps either.

Suicide ganking was a carebear vets way of pretending like he could PvP, by controlling his losses completely and still killing targets that can't fight back. CCP began making this harder, forcing suiciders to actually incur sizeable losses. Reaction from majority of older players? "OMG THE WORLD IS COMING TO AN END! LETS JUST MAKE ALL PVP CONSENSUAL ACROSS THE WHOLE GAME WHILE WE'RE AT IT!"

Again, i was in 0.0 at the time this change went live, pretty much NOBODY in my alliance, or any alliance we where affilitated with(several thousand people) and went on roams together cared even one tiny little bit. The only people who cared was again a tiny vocal minority of people who actually did suicide ganking in highsec, and i assure you the vast majority of EvE vets simply has better stuff to do(and complain about) than that.

Those are just a few of the examples. There are only a small handful of vet players that want to see the game become more friendly for new players, while still keeping its non-consensual PvP elements in low sec and nullsec (though mostly low, since nullsec is by and large more safe than highsec ever will be due to its size, and despite how much nullbears QQ to the opposite). It's being fought tooth and nail, but CCP seems to be on our side. It's just taking time.

BS, theres just a handful of of angry idiots that flood every topic about things like that and blow it out of proportion. Just look at the threads, there is a handfull of (griefer)corps and the same 10-20 people bringing the same stupid arguments again and again. If you look at the ACTUAL representatives of the players in eve, the CSM you will find that 90% of them are in favour of these changes and infact proposed many of them. Even the leaders of the big sov holding 0.0 alliances are usually in favor of these changes if they don't mess up other areas of the games.

Most Vets are aware that to survive EvE needs new blood, and won't fight sensible changes like the new crimewatch or the insurance payout suicide ganking changes in the past. If EvE vets are so hostile to new players why do so many work as recruiters and teachers in corps dedicated to new players? And why does a massive shitstorm break lose everytime someone wardecs Eve university, a entire corp/alliance network dedicated to new players?

In reality you will have a hard time finding any MMO where a new player looking for help and tutoring will have an easier time than in EvE. There are actually dedicated players/corps that do nothing besides helping tutoring players and even smallish corps usually have a dedicated mentor that helps new corpmembers with fittings etc and has the roles to hand out free ships and modules to go with his advice.

  Tolmos

Novice Member

Joined: 8/26/10
Posts: 131

12/02/12 4:50:11 PM#48
Originally posted by Rocketeer

Yeah lets paint everything black and white. Thing is its just not as simple as doing "Improvements to highsec canflipping", what people wanted changed is how looting and stealing works, if you mess with that it will spill over into a countless numbers of situations besides canflipping. If you have a proposal that will actually only affect canflipping im all ears. Lets also keep in mind that CCP wants people to encourage to group up with other players, which makes mining considerably safer.

Well, if I had to take a wild swing at what I would suggest, then I'd suggest making ALL player dropped cans anchored as a default option, which can be turned off in the UI, so that they can't be scooped and redropped by another player. This would vastly help new players.

New players would neither be able to afford, nor being able to handle advanced ships and their combat/fitting. Going through progresssion while slowly getting stronger is meant to blunt the already steep learning curve that eve has. It means that the stupid mistakes every new player does in his first days of playtime happen in cheap affordable ships that can be replaced by doing a couple lvl 1 or 2 missions. If your a fast learner, and somehow have so much ISK that you can afford the advanced ships, nothing is stopping you from buying a char that has the skills you want. If you can't afford such a char, you couldn't afford T3s and caps either.

First off, you couldn't get into T3s on 10 mil SP if you tried, and certainly not caps. Reread what I wrote- the purpose of extending the double SP to 10 mil is to make them better at small ship combat. If they choose to use their 10 mil SP trying to work towards battleships, they would have chosen to do so without the double SP regardless. The only difference is they wouldn't have to wait as long. I can honestly see NO viable argument as to why it being expanded to 10 mil would be a bad thing, except that it gives new players more of an advantage than they currently have in PvP and thus makes them a less easy killmail for higher SP targets.

Again, i was in 0.0 at the time this change went live, pretty much NOBODY in my alliance, or any alliance we where affilitated with(several thousand people) and went on roams together cared even one tiny little bit. The only people who cared was again a tiny vocal minority of people who actually did suicide ganking in highsec, and i assure you the vast majority of EvE vets simply has better stuff to do(and complain about) than that.

BS, theres just a handful of of angry idiots that flood every topic about things like that and blow it out of proportion. Just look at the threads, there is a handfull of (griefer)corps and the same 10-20 people bringing the same stupid arguments again and again. If you look at the ACTUAL representatives of the players in eve, the CSM you will find that 90% of them are in favour of these changes and infact proposed many of them. Even the leaders of the big sov holding 0.0 alliances are usually in favor of these changes if they don't mess up other areas of the games.

Fair enough. All I can go on are forums and locals, and based on the reactions from players in those two locations (both these forums and EVE Online official forums), it was not welcomed particularly warmly among non-new players.

As for looking at the CSM- it became a joke after Mittani joined. He proved that large alliances have the manpower, if nothing else through alts alone, to vote whoever they want in. I don't want to change the topic of this discussion from being about new players to being about the CSM, so I'll stop there. I'll just say that I don't entirely trust that the CSM properly represents the majority of the playerbase, regardless of what sec they are, in a non-biased way.

Most Vets are aware that to survive EvE needs new blood, and won't fight sensible changes like the new crimewatch or the insurance payout suicide ganking changes in the past. If EvE vets are so hostile to new players why do so many work as recruiters and teachers in corps dedicated to new players? And why does a massive shitstorm break lose everytime someone wardecs Eve university, a entire corp/alliance network dedicated to new players?

In reality you will have a hard time finding any MMO where a new player looking for help and tutoring will have an easier time than in EvE. There are actually dedicated players/corps that do nothing besides helping tutoring players and even smallish corps usually have a dedicated mentor that helps new corpmembers with fittings etc and has the roles to hand out free ships and modules to go with his advice.

The number of players I have seen actually helping, in game, has always been dwarfed by the number of players telling people to "Go back to WoW" or otherwise quit the game, try to scam the new players right off the bat, can flip on them, suicide them, etc. This is all fine and good for someone like me, with 50mil+ SP and the financial backing that it won't make a lick of difference if I fall for their crap or not... but for a brand new player? It grows tiresome seeing people say "This game sucks. It's nothing but vets ganking new players" and leave.

Maybe I'm paranoid about this sort of thing because of my gaming past- I come from Shadowbane, which died for this exact reason. I LOVED that game, but the new player experience was downright miserable there. Then I moved to Darkfall which was in the same boat. We had an entire guild devoted to helping out new players, right there on each newb zone. But for every 1 of us willing to help them, there were 10 ganking them and taking their crap every 5 minutes.

Non-consensual PvP is fun if you can get a foothold in the game and survive the initial learning period, but if your first few weeks in the game is nothing but losing EVERYTHING you have worked for over and over and over again, then it's kind of hard to say "Wow, this is so much fun! I love being farmed my vet players! This is the BEST!". 

http://imgur.com/a/kU0qS
Players of Balmung- a compilation of different characters I've come across during my adventures in FFXIV ARR.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12122

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

12/02/12 4:58:33 PM#49
Originally posted by Tolmos

Those are just a few of the examples. There are only a small handful of vet players that want to see the game become more friendly for new players...

You infer that the examples you present were from some large group and then make a statement of fact that the other group is small. Do you not see that you have no data to actually support either stance?

Do you consider EVE University, PVP Unleased and the RvB group as a large or small group of players? Are you suggesting that the only players who are in favor of a more friendly game for new players are those that have gone to the point of actively aiding new players in large organized groups, and that they are not just a subset of a larger group that feels the same way? I ask, because that doesn't seem to fit any social behavior model known to man.

 

"The number of players I have seen actually helping, in game, has always been dwarfed by the number of players telling people to "Go back to WoW" or otherwise quit the game, try to scam the new players right off the bat, can flip on them, suicide them, etc."

 

"Maybe I'm paranoid about this sort of thing..."

Maybe there's one too many words in that part of the sentence. ;)

 

"...because of my gaming past- I come from Shadowbane, which died for this exact reason."

Shadowbane died for a lot of reasons, none of which "new players were getting killed and being told to go back to WOW."

 

"Then I moved to Darkfall which was in the same boat. We had an entire guild devoted to helping out new players, right there on each newb zone. But for every 1 of us willing to help them, there were 10 ganking them and taking their crap every 5 minutes."

Darkfall is a PVP game with barely any content outside of that to speak of. It is so far removed from EVE, that comparison between the two is a farce.

 

"Non-consensual PvP is fun if you can get a foothold in the game and survive the initial learning period, but if your first few weeks in the game is nothing but losing EVERYTHING you have worked for over and over and over again..."

At this point, I'm very curious what you are doing in game that you are seeing this with any degree of regularity. What system or channel are you seeing new players regularly being told to go back to WOW or being suicide ganked repeatedly?

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  Tolmos

Novice Member

Joined: 8/26/10
Posts: 131

12/02/12 5:30:19 PM#50
Originally posted by Loktofeit

Do you consider EVE University, PVP Unleased and the RvB group as a large or small group of players? Are you suggesting that the only players who are in favor of a more friendly game for new players are those that have gone to the point of actively aiding new players in large organized groups, and that they are not just a subset of a larger group that feels the same way? I ask, because that doesn't seem to fit any social behavior model known to man.

Don't spend a lot of time on the internet do you? "doesn't seem to fit any social behavior model known to man" is a bit of stretch when it is seen online 24/7. Go to any internet forum, any full PvP game, and you will constantly see that. ESPECIALLY in EVE, where every suggestion to help new players on any forum is shot down within minutes of people saying "HTFU".

 

"The number of players I have seen actually helping, in game, has always been dwarfed by the number of players telling people to "Go back to WoW" or otherwise quit the game, try to scam the new players right off the bat, can flip on them, suicide them, etc."

 

"Maybe I'm paranoid about this sort of thing..."

Maybe there's one too many words in that part of the sentence. ;)

ZING! Look at you, Mr. Clever e-badass!

"...because of my gaming past- I come from Shadowbane, which died for this exact reason."

Shadowbane died for a lot of reasons, none of which "new players were getting killed and being told to go back to WOW."

 Actually, that was exactly the reason. Players had an almost impossible time leveling because their groups would get rolled within minutes of being set up. That was all well and good for those of us who would r6s (and eventually r7s) to protect our groups, but for the newbs? Not so much.

"Then I moved to Darkfall which was in the same boat. We had an entire guild devoted to helping out new players, right there on each newb zone. But for every 1 of us willing to help them, there were 10 ganking them and taking their crap every 5 minutes."

Darkfall is a PVP game with barely any content outside of that to speak of. It is so far removed from EVE, that comparison between the two is a farce.

 Oh really? Darkfall isn't a sandbox PvP game with the ability to claim to sovereignty over zones, lay siege to those zones, and contains a fully functional political system for use within the guilds that own those zones? Huh, I must be thinking of a different game then.

"Non-consensual PvP is fun if you can get a foothold in the game and survive the initial learning period, but if your first few weeks in the game is nothing but losing EVERYTHING you have worked for over and over and over again..."

At this point, I'm very curious what you are doing in game that you are seeing this with any degree of regularity. What system or channel are you seeing new players regularly being told to go back to WOW or being suicide ganked repeatedly?

Pop on over to... I dunno, lets say Amarr and its neighboring 1.0 security areas. Just hang around there for a while. Maybe pop over to the stations there and take note of the 50+ cans waiting to be flipped. Watch local and see the "how did I die?!" "cause you suck at this game. Go back to WoW!" messages flow across the screen. Sit back and enjoy the newbie experience!

 

http://imgur.com/a/kU0qS
Players of Balmung- a compilation of different characters I've come across during my adventures in FFXIV ARR.

  Rocketeer

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/07/04
Posts: 1310

12/03/12 3:27:33 AM#51
Originally posted by Tolmos
Originally posted by Rocketeer

Yeah lets paint everything black and white. Thing is its just not as simple as doing "Improvements to highsec canflipping", what people wanted changed is how looting and stealing works, if you mess with that it will spill over into a countless numbers of situations besides canflipping. If you have a proposal that will actually only affect canflipping im all ears. Lets also keep in mind that CCP wants people to encourage to group up with other players, which makes mining considerably safer.

Well, if I had to take a wild swing at what I would suggest, then I'd suggest making ALL player dropped cans anchored as a default option, which can be turned off in the UI, so that they can't be scooped and redropped by another player. This would vastly help new players.

Yeah thats a brilliant plan, any industrial thats about to be popped is just going to jettison his cargo, same for freighters wanting to fuel a pos or wartargets. Thats exactly the kind of thing i was talking about, you don't even see how this would spill over into other areas. The jettison feature was meant to get rid of junk, its the equivalent to destroying items in other games. You where never supposed to use it for mining and it has been actively discouraged by CCP since 2004. You and your corp are already getting full killrights for someone scooping your loot, what more do you want? A hardlock preventing taking items that don't belong to you? A concord fleet showing up?

New players would neither be able to afford, nor being able to handle advanced ships and their combat/fitting. Going through progresssion while slowly getting stronger is meant to blunt the already steep learning curve that eve has. It means that the stupid mistakes every new player does in his first days of playtime happen in cheap affordable ships that can be replaced by doing a couple lvl 1 or 2 missions. If your a fast learner, and somehow have so much ISK that you can afford the advanced ships, nothing is stopping you from buying a char that has the skills you want. If you can't afford such a char, you couldn't afford T3s and caps either.

First off, you couldn't get into T3s on 10 mil SP if you tried, and certainly not caps. Reread what I wrote- the purpose of extending the double SP to 10 mil is to make them better at small ship combat. If they choose to use their 10 mil SP trying to work towards battleships, they would have chosen to do so without the double SP regardless. The only difference is they wouldn't have to wait as long. I can honestly see NO viable argument as to why it being expanded to 10 mil would be a bad thing, except that it gives new players more of an advantage than they currently have in PvP and thus makes them a less easy killmail for higher SP targets.

Actually you can. About 1 Mil SP for cruiser 5, another 1.5 mil for the support skills(engi, elec, missile op, shield op, nav) you want at 5 anyway since they benefit any ship, maybe half a mil again in missiles, shields and you can fly a very nice tengu doing good damage(withing 20% of a 100mil SP Vet) with sufficent tank to fly level 4 missions requirering 3-4 mil SP tops. Subsystems and support skills at 3-4 are plenty for level 4.

To give you a bone though, yeah i wouldn't see it as the end of the world either to extend the double SP to 10 mil either. But thats just another arbitrary number, why not 20, or 30 mil SP? In 90% of the cases ISK is going to be the limiting factor anyway.

Again, i was in 0.0 at the time this change went live, pretty much NOBODY in my alliance, or any alliance we where affilitated with(several thousand people) and went on roams together cared even one tiny little bit. The only people who cared was again a tiny vocal minority of people who actually did suicide ganking in highsec, and i assure you the vast majority of EvE vets simply has better stuff to do(and complain about) than that.

BS, theres just a handful of of angry idiots that flood every topic about things like that and blow it out of proportion. Just look at the threads, there is a handfull of (griefer)corps and the same 10-20 people bringing the same stupid arguments again and again. If you look at the ACTUAL representatives of the players in eve, the CSM you will find that 90% of them are in favour of these changes and infact proposed many of them. Even the leaders of the big sov holding 0.0 alliances are usually in favor of these changes if they don't mess up other areas of the games.

Fair enough. All I can go on are forums and locals, and based on the reactions from players in those two locations (both these forums and EVE Online official forums), it was not welcomed particularly warmly among non-new players.

Bitter Vets lurk on forums, beware.

As for looking at the CSM- it became a joke after Mittani joined. He proved that large alliances have the manpower, if nothing else through alts alone, to vote whoever they want in. I don't want to change the topic of this discussion from being about new players to being about the CSM, so I'll stop there. I'll just say that I don't entirely trust that the CSM properly represents the majority of the playerbase, regardless of what sec they are, in a non-biased way.

Yeah well shit, if that isn't the way democracy works ... Goons got mittani in because they DO represent a fairly decent size of the playerbase. That being said the mittani is actually a fairly sensible guy with some sound thinking going on, and i say that as someone who has been red to goons since they existed. Ingame politics are one thing, doesn't mean someone is a duchebag in real life. CSM is about the interaction of players with devs, not null sec politics.

Most Vets are aware that to survive EvE needs new blood, and won't fight sensible changes like the new crimewatch or the insurance payout suicide ganking changes in the past. If EvE vets are so hostile to new players why do so many work as recruiters and teachers in corps dedicated to new players? And why does a massive shitstorm break lose everytime someone wardecs Eve university, a entire corp/alliance network dedicated to new players?

In reality you will have a hard time finding any MMO where a new player looking for help and tutoring will have an easier time than in EvE. There are actually dedicated players/corps that do nothing besides helping tutoring players and even smallish corps usually have a dedicated mentor that helps new corpmembers with fittings etc and has the roles to hand out free ships and modules to go with his advice.

The number of players I have seen actually helping, in game, has always been dwarfed by the number of players telling people to "Go back to WoW" or otherwise quit the game, try to scam the new players right off the bat, can flip on them, suicide them, etc. This is all fine and good for someone like me, with 50mil+ SP and the financial backing that it won't make a lick of difference if I fall for their crap or not... but for a brand new player? It grows tiresome seeing people say "This game sucks. It's nothing but vets ganking new players" and leave.

More or less true, but this isn't targeting new players, its targeting everyone. New players get scammed by selling them a frig instead of a cruiser, vets get scammed by selling them a raven instead of a CNR. I honestly don't see the difference. Infact the preferable target of scams are older players because they can be scammed for billions. And the "go back to wow" comment gets thrown at anyone because its just meant as a insult, your game age or SP have nothing to do with it.

Maybe I'm paranoid about this sort of thing because of my gaming past- I come from Shadowbane, which died for this exact reason. I LOVED that game, but the new player experience was downright miserable there. Then I moved to Darkfall which was in the same boat. We had an entire guild devoted to helping out new players, right there on each newb zone. But for every 1 of us willing to help them, there were 10 ganking them and taking their crap every 5 minutes.

Different game, different problem. Newbies don't get ganked right left and center in the newbie zones, infact its actually pretty rare and is one of the few things that will actually get CCP onto your ass in short time(its considered griefing to gank newbies in the starting systems). If i look at the help channel or local in those systems i see normal human interaction, some nice ones, some mean ones and the usual share of idiots. You'll find the same anyplace in RL where people get together. 

Non-consensual PvP is fun if you can get a foothold in the game and survive the initial learning period, but if your first few weeks in the game is nothing but losing EVERYTHING you have worked for over and over and over again, then it's kind of hard to say "Wow, this is so much fun! I love being farmed my vet players! This is the BEST!".

PvP in highsec is consensual or suicide, you can't even wardec new player corps since they are a NPC corp. Newbies can be tricked into making themselves vulnurable though, which CCP tries to adress through the new crimewatch and safety system.

Also how do they loose everything when they don't have anything? Anyway the game is designed to be very forgiving at that state, a frig costs like 300k and you get millions worth in the tutorial missions alone, with insurance payout you would need to loose probably dozens of frigs daily to loose everything. Not to mention it takes next to no work to actually get back into gear considering how cheap t1 frigs and their gear are.

Not to mention that if you took the unanimous universial advice that almost every EvE Vet gives new players, which is to get your ass into a player corp dedicated to new players, you will have protection and people to help you. And if all of that is not enough join a communist corp(i was in a communist pirate corp once, twas nice) where everything is shared corpstuff anyway.

Edit: Also i think your doing a disservice to all the new players who do great in Eve, don't fall to scams and learn from their mistakes. Better to be canflipped as a newbie and loose a t1 frig while learning the mechanics, than getting taught them the hard way once your in your cap or faction BS.

The first ship i lost was a laser fitted Thorax(i had zero drone skills) that had a simultanious shield and armor tank(with a hullrepper thrown in for added measure), and back then it really was everything i owned. Not to mention a t1 cruiser was a weeks worth of ISK back then. Yeah the pirates in Old man star where scary back then, then again i learned alot from that mistake.

  Malcanis

Novice Member

Joined: 8/17/09
Posts: 3202

"A very special kind of stupidity"

12/03/12 3:37:29 AM#52

From what you're telling us, it's obviously even more urgent than I'd thought that we get new players out to 0.0 where people behave much better as early as possible.

It seems that there's something about an environment where you can be held accountable for your actions by other players without NPC interference that makes people much nicer to each other.

Give me liberty or give me lasers

  Tolmos

Novice Member

Joined: 8/26/10
Posts: 131

12/03/12 3:47:38 AM#53
Originally posted by Malcanis

From what you're telling us, it's obviously even more urgent than I'd thought that we get new players out to 0.0 where people behave much better as early as possible.

It seems that there's something about an environment where you can be held accountable for your actions by other players without NPC interference that makes people much nicer to each other.

Personally, I would love to see that. 0.0 is safer for new characters than highsec ever will be, and they would be cared for more by their corps. The problem, and likely the only reason they are so afraid of 0.0, are the gate camps getting there. Every time a newb pokes his head out the door of highsec/lowsec into 0.0, it gets blown off. From that point forward they have some sort of post gank stress syndrome or some crap and a new highsecbear is formed. If I had the raw isk and manpower, I'd devote all my time to keep gates clean just so we can get newbs out of highsec ASAP and shuffle them off into 0.0.

In fact, my only real issue with 0.0, and the reason I don't actively support ridding ourselves of highsec entirely, is because 0.0 is just too big. Hard to find good combat there. At least highsec/lowsec gives us a chaotic centerpoint to all cram into when we want a good rumble.

If there was a way to get newbs into 0.0 as soon as possible, I'd be all for it.

http://imgur.com/a/kU0qS
Players of Balmung- a compilation of different characters I've come across during my adventures in FFXIV ARR.

  kovah

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/15/05
Posts: 692

DaZeD aNd AmUsEd

12/03/12 6:01:48 AM#54

I've only died due to gank once in my over six years of EVE'ing.  That was in null, around 5.75 years ago.  First trip out.  Made it safely in my kestrel but I hit a bubble on the way back into low-sec.  

Never fell for the can tricks.  I've also never really touched the indutrial side of this game.

Again, 6 years in.  95% of my ship/pod losses have been due to something I did that was easily preventable(drunk, mostly.)

Straighten up and fly right.  Common sense shouldn't be a commodity.

o7

  Rocketeer

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/07/04
Posts: 1310

12/03/12 6:41:45 AM#55
Originally posted by Tolmos
Originally posted by Malcanis

From what you're telling us, it's obviously even more urgent than I'd thought that we get new players out to 0.0 where people behave much better as early as possible.

It seems that there's something about an environment where you can be held accountable for your actions by other players without NPC interference that makes people much nicer to each other.

Personally, I would love to see that. 0.0 is safer for new characters than highsec ever will be, and they would be cared for more by their corps. The problem, and likely the only reason they are so afraid of 0.0, are the gate camps getting there. Every time a newb pokes his head out the door of highsec/lowsec into 0.0, it gets blown off. From that point forward they have some sort of post gank stress syndrome or some crap and a new highsecbear is formed. If I had the raw isk and manpower, I'd devote all my time to keep gates clean just so we can get newbs out of highsec ASAP and shuffle them off into 0.0.

In fact, my only real issue with 0.0, and the reason I don't actively support ridding ourselves of highsec entirely, is because 0.0 is just too big. Hard to find good combat there. At least highsec/lowsec gives us a chaotic centerpoint to all cram into when we want a good rumble.

If there was a way to get newbs into 0.0 as soon as possible, I'd be all for it.

Hmm i have not done this in years, but there was some loophole somewhere in regards to that ... I think if your corp has an office at some station in 0.0 you can set it as destination for your medical clone/jumpclone, even from empire. After which you just have some carrier pilot bring your stuff in. Again not sure on the details, only used it once or twice and that was simply due to the distances involved. Personally i think breaking the gatecamps is half the fun.

Then again, always a hoot when you find that the evil scumbags camping the gate ... are your alliance mates.

  tom_gore

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 1803

12/03/12 7:38:06 AM#56

It would be best if there was no security levels and CONCORD in the first place, but unfortunately there are just too many asshats among gamers to ever make it work.

 

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6908

12/03/12 7:48:13 AM#57


Originally posted by tom_gore

It would be best if there was no security levels and CONCORD in the first place, but unfortunately there are just too many asshats among gamers to ever make it work.

 


What is best about losing 60-80% of the player base?

  Slechtvalk

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 33

12/03/12 7:54:49 AM#58
Originally posted by Tolmos
The number of players I have seen actually helping, in game, has always been dwarfed by the number of players telling people to "Go back to WoW" or otherwise quit the game, try to scam the new players right off the bat, can flip on them, suicide them, etc. This is all fine and good for someone like me, with 50mil+ SP and the financial backing that it won't make a lick of difference if I fall for their crap or not... but for a brand new player? It grows tiresome seeing people say "This game sucks. It's nothing but vets ganking new players" and leave.

Maybe I'm paranoid about this sort of thing because of my gaming past- I come from Shadowbane, which died for this exact reason. I LOVED that game, but the new player experience was downright miserable there. Then I moved to Darkfall which was in the same boat. We had an entire guild devoted to helping out new players, right there on each newb zone. But for every 1 of us willing to help them, there were 10 ganking them and taking their crap every 5 minutes.

Non-consensual PvP is fun if you can get a foothold in the game and survive the initial learning period, but if your first few weeks in the game is nothing but losing EVERYTHING you have worked for over and over and over again, then it's kind of hard to say "Wow, this is so much fun! I love being farmed my vet players! This is the BEST!". 

 Sorry for those calling my ideas as busshilt, english is not my mothertongue.

 

Thank you Tolmos , that describes exactly what i tried to explain before. My opinion, there are more of these players today, since years ago.

  Malcanis

Novice Member

Joined: 8/17/09
Posts: 3202

"A very special kind of stupidity"

12/03/12 8:31:49 AM#59
Originally posted by Tolmos
Originally posted by Malcanis

From what you're telling us, it's obviously even more urgent than I'd thought that we get new players out to 0.0 where people behave much better as early as possible.

It seems that there's something about an environment where you can be held accountable for your actions by other players without NPC interference that makes people much nicer to each other.

Personally, I would love to see that. 0.0 is safer for new characters than highsec ever will be, and they would be cared for more by their corps. The problem, and likely the only reason they are so afraid of 0.0, are the gate camps getting there. Every time a newb pokes his head out the door of highsec/lowsec into 0.0, it gets blown off. From that point forward they have some sort of post gank stress syndrome or some crap and a new highsecbear is formed. If I had the raw isk and manpower, I'd devote all my time to keep gates clean just so we can get newbs out of highsec ASAP and shuffle them off into 0.0.

In fact, my only real issue with 0.0, and the reason I don't actively support ridding ourselves of highsec entirely, is because 0.0 is just too big. Hard to find good combat there. At least highsec/lowsec gives us a chaotic centerpoint to all cram into when we want a good rumble.

If there was a way to get newbs into 0.0 as soon as possible, I'd be all for it.

 

Please stop spreading this lie. I routinely fly in and out of 0.0, and it's realtively rare for the enterance to be camped. I hope you're not one of those guys that hangs out in NPC corp chat and tells new players that this is what happens?

Some 0.0 gateways are nearly always camped, but many more aren't. Gateways into null are by definition regional gates and those things are massive. It takes a large and well organised gang to effectively camp one.

As for lo-sec I can scarcely remember the last time I saw a camp, and I fly between Rens and Jita.

You can't have it both ways: either 0.0 is always total helldeath or its largely empty.

Give me liberty or give me lasers

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6908

12/03/12 8:36:36 AM#60


Originally posted by Slechtvalk

Sorry for those calling my ideas as busshilt, english is not my mothertongue.

 

Thank you Tolmos , that describes exactly what i tried to explain before. My opinion, there are more of these players today, since years ago.


Problem is, the guy is lacking any deeper knowledge about the game and only repeats popular misconceptions.

True is, EVE is FFA PVP in nature, but you have more than enough tools available to be relatively safe if you wish so as well as play the game at your own pace and style.

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