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News & Features Discussion  » [Column] General: The Problem No One’s Talking About

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168 posts found
  evolver1972

Novice Member

Joined: 3/18/11
Posts: 1126

What is "real"? How do you define "real"?

11/02/12 3:48:17 PM#41
Originally posted by Ozivois
They need to slow down level progression - that will add more time to subs.  Lower experience gain to a minimum so that players have to spend inordinate amounts of time in every area of the world. Offer raids for every ten levels. Limit daily experience gain.  Make it so that rare level 20 armor is worth looking for because you will be able to use it for another month as you work your way to level 30...

Why do they need to slow down level progression?  So they can bilk you out of even more money?  So the game can just become tedious?  No thanks.

 

I got an idea when it comes to longevity of a game.  Stop playing games like they're a second job.  Does anyone hear realize how ridiculous it is to spend 5-6 hours per day playing a computer game?  Maybe slow down the amount of time you play and you won't finish a game in 2 months.

 

To Bill's article, I think you need both.  You need both the content to keep people happy and the systems.  Just one of those won't be enough to keep people coming.  Especially those who have apparently massive amounts of time every week to waste.

You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???

Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!

  immodium

Elite Member

Joined: 11/03/07
Posts: 1258

11/02/12 3:48:32 PM#42

IMO they should get rid of the whole "the world revolves around me" feeling you get from most, if not all new MMO's.

Combat shouldn't be the only main aspect of the RPG experience. Crafting and socialising systems should be on an equal footing as combat.

 

  immodium

Elite Member

Joined: 11/03/07
Posts: 1258

11/02/12 3:52:01 PM#43
Originally posted by evolver1972
Originally posted by Ozivois
They need to slow down level progression - that will add more time to subs.  Lower experience gain to a minimum so that players have to spend inordinate amounts of time in every area of the world. Offer raids for every ten levels. Limit daily experience gain.  Make it so that rare level 20 armor is worth looking for because you will be able to use it for another month as you work your way to level 30...

Why do they need to slow down level progression?  So they can bilk you out of even more money?  So the game can just become tedious?  No thanks.

 

I got an idea when it comes to longevity of a game.  Stop playing games like they're a second job.  Does anyone hear realize how ridiculous it is to spend 5-6 hours per day playing a computer game?  Maybe slow down the amount of time you play and you won't finish a game in 2 months.

 

To Bill's article, I think you need both.  You need both the content to keep people happy and the systems.  Just one of those won't be enough to keep people coming.  Especially those who have apparently massive amounts of time every week to waste.

When you say job are you implying people hate what they are doing? What if they find their job immense fun? Is it wrong to have immense fun for 5-6 hours a day? :)

  Kalafax

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/05/05
Posts: 499

11/02/12 3:55:48 PM#44
I agree with what your saying, and really this is why I'm a sandbox player and not a themepark player, the heart behind a sandbox MMO is that it has content such as storyline and questing, but it also has tons and tons of systems that allow you to do whatever it is you enjoy in a game.

Mess with the best, Die like the rest

  moguy2

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/20/12
Posts: 360

Wish I had something positive to say =(

11/02/12 3:56:45 PM#45
I was thinking about food and I think I missed what was going on in this thread
  Aelious

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2293

World > Quest Progression

11/02/12 3:57:22 PM#46

I agree on both point completely.  Yep, EQN is coming

 

Look to EQ2 for addresses to both issues and it's "testbed" role for EQN.  The pricing model is already there, will be better still in the future when cosmetics are craftable, and it has more features than you can shake a stick at.  Granted, the dungeon maker feature is not as involved as NW looks to be and the dungeon finder is a bit buggy with 29 different classes but you have all these features in one game.  Level scaling, housing, good crafting, deep character advancement, various quest types, SoEMote and even 3DTV.  What's my point?

 

EQ2 itself ends with raid progression but if you look at the tools it has built over the years the good ones have been built into EQN from the start.  Apply that to the Forgelight engine and a tout of "biggest sandbox style MMO ever created" and we may very well see a resurgence of long term player retention among new MMOs based on your two great points.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5492

11/02/12 4:00:36 PM#47
Originally posted by colddog04
Just for the record, I am also pro-features. I thought everyone was.

Well the other half of this coin is many of the "features" or systems in discusssions seems to revolve around ffa pvp.  As much as themeparks need to realize systems are important to depth, non-themeparks need to let go of the idea that a systems centric design doesn't need to have pvp permeate everything.

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  Ozmodan

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/27/07
Posts: 6561

11/02/12 4:07:18 PM#48

Wow that was probably one of your bests articles.   So true.  All that content in SWTOR for example is useless, people have been through it few times and moved on.  F2P people will find out the same.  

I do think your comments about Neverwinter are misplaced.  Cryptic has never made a decent game ever, what makes you think they can do it with this title.  Secondly as I have mention a few times before, PW is well know to abuse players with a necessary item shop.  I just don't see them making everything about the foundry free.  Not going to happen.

 

  fenistil

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/11
Posts: 3016

11/02/12 4:13:50 PM#49

Yeah overall article is right and even business model wise is also right.  There is no chance that in example 30 subsciption only mmorpg's (not countining very small indie ones) would thrive.

 

Still does not change fact that I will never again personally play freemium, f2p or similar model.

It might work for industry generally speaking but It does not really work for me.  Microtransactions suck enjoyment out of me due to my specific reasons why I play mmorpg's in first place.

  Foomerang

Elite Member

Joined: 11/10/05
Posts: 4635

A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still

11/02/12 4:21:07 PM#50

Yes we all bask the the epiphany right now. Just remember in two months we will be voting for all the various mmo awards of the year. Will you be surprised when it reads: themepark, themepark, themepark, themepark....

Btw, plenty of people have been talking about this issue for years. Moderators make it seem like nobody is though >_>

If you thought the events were dynamic, you'll think the stories are living.

  yorkforce

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/17/04
Posts: 157

11/02/12 4:36:41 PM#51

Sorry to bring in the sandbox/themepark take on the article but isnt that what makes sandboxes have longer longlivety? A Sandbox generally by its nature has many many systems, while a themepark has one or very few.

My problem with most recent games is the way they are telling me how to play, telling me what system i can use and when i can use it or making each system so similiar to one another that it doesnt matter which one im using, if im looking for a story, ill watch a film or play a single player game, they just dont work well in MMO's because of everyone else, if i want to play a game however I want choices, lots of them which in turn requires alot of different systems.

  fenistil

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/11
Posts: 3016

11/02/12 4:38:02 PM#52
Originally posted by Foomerang

Btw, plenty of people have been talking about this issue for years. Moderators make it seem like nobody is though >_>

Good point.  Threads about sandboxes, more varied gameplay, less linearity, etc are endless and reappear all the time for looooong years already.

  Calerxes

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/06/09
Posts: 1658

11/02/12 4:40:16 PM#53

Being newish to the joys off MMO's I've had to learn the history of the genre and what it stands for in essense and something that has driven home the fact that modern MMO's are pale copies of their predecessors was going back to Vanguard after playing many many modern MMO's inbetween the last time I played. The feel of Vanguard is so different from modern MMO's that only one other MMO has given me that feeling and thats another old skool MMO, Lineage 2 and that feeling is a vast open world to play in that always offers new and different experiences whatever path you decide to take, with deep mechanics and lore that help you immerse yourself in a fantasy world, sadly Lineage 2 is shell of its former glory.

 

Now after reading these boards for a few years I've slowly come to understand that essense (all bitter vets stand and take a bow ) and what is missing from modern MMO's to sustain and build a community and Bill hits the nail on the head with, systems, systems to encourage interdepency, systems to engage the players be they deep comabt mechanics, deep crafting systems or as in Vanguard a great Diplomacy system, systems to help the players form socities be they good, bad or indifferent, systems to deepen the immersion and connection to the world you are playing in, systems to help you understand your chosen role in that world, systems that encourage you to be better at whatever you choose to be. Overall to help make the game a deeper more slow burning experience rather than a rush in and rush out  as if on a conveyor belt, I'm done mentatlity that modern MMO's seem to encourage more than anything. 

This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.

  gravesworn

Novice Member

Joined: 6/15/12
Posts: 325

11/02/12 4:48:05 PM#54
Very nice post, the problem with personal story and achievement for me is that it hasnt felt very personal or achieving in a very long time. I mean Skyrim felt more personal to me than any mmo and it is a single player experience.
  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5492

11/02/12 5:00:43 PM#55
Originally posted by Aelious

I agree on both point completely.  Yep, EQN is coming

Look to EQ2 for addresses to both issues and it's "testbed" role for EQN.  The pricing model is already there, will be better still in the future when cosmetics are craftable, and it has more features than you can shake a stick at.  Granted, the dungeon maker feature is not as involved as NW looks to be and the dungeon finder is a bit buggy with 29 different classes but you have all these features in one game.  Level scaling, housing, good crafting, deep character advancement, various quest types, SoEMote and even 3DTV.  What's my point?

EQ2 itself ends with raid progression but if you look at the tools it has built over the years the good ones have been built into EQN from the start.  Apply that to the Forgelight engine and a tout of "biggest sandbox style MMO ever created" and we may very well see a resurgence of long term player retention among new MMOs based on your two great points.

EQ2 is not going to address either issue.

First, it's pricing model is horrible.  When, at the end of the day, you still have to subscribe to unlock the full game, it is still locked into that same restrictive mindset.  The pricing models we should be looking at are the sort employed by GW2, Aion, or STO.  The weakest part of the latter models are those key-locked consumable containers.

Secondly, already EQ2 had some great systems in place with regards to housing, and to an extent crafting and how those were integrated into adventuring and the broker.  However, the new stuff they've added lately with their dungeon designer, face recognition, and the like aren't well integrated into the game at all.  We don't need bolt on systems.  We need well integrated systems that work together to provide a deeper gaming experience.

EQN might deliver on that, but the danger I see here is we don't know if developers have had a paradigm shift yet.  All we know is that marketing has realized the value of the next wave of hype buzzwords like "sandbox" and are using those to maximum benefit now.  The fact that Smed used the phrase "sandbox style" should send up huge marketing / buzzword alarms.  I think a hybrid design approach will be great, but I think it's wise to take a wait and watch approach rather than jumping in the shark infested pool with a big smile.

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  achesoma

Novice Member

Joined: 5/05/05
Posts: 958

11/02/12 5:05:34 PM#56

I have to disagree about WoW being a fluke.  It was the first of its kind to be friendly to new MMOers.  It had a very low learning curve and most of its content was easily accessible.  I remember when I first started SWG in 2003 and it took me a good 2 months to learn the ins and outs of that game.  Now I can jump into any current MMO and learn all I need to know in less than a hour. 

WoW did to MMOs what Starbucks did to coffee.  Starbucks got the masses to drink coffee that normally didn't like coffee.  And it's not really the coffee most people like about Starbucks, it's all the sweet, flavored crap they pour into it.  WoW did the same to MMOs.  It's not the MMO part of WoW people like, it's the Skinner box method of getting players hooked on their epic shineys and they can't let go.  Most don't give a flip about any true social aspects of MMOs.  People that truly enjoy the MMORPG aspect are unfortunately in the minority.  A fluke?  I think not.  It was a brilliant business strategy. 

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6742

11/02/12 5:06:43 PM#57


Originally posted by Torvaldr

Does Gdemami really not get why MMO require some form of retention? 


And yet, no one was able to provide an answer to my question... Funny isn't it?

The point is very simple tho.


Does post-release development make more or same money than releasing new game?


You say the former is the only way for MMOs and I am very curious about reasoning backing such claim up...

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5492

11/02/12 5:08:13 PM#58
Originally posted by fenistil

Yeah overall article is right and even business model wise is also right.  There is no chance that in example 30 subsciption only mmorpg's (not countining very small indie ones) would thrive.

Still does not change fact that I will never again personally play freemium, f2p or similar model.

It might work for industry generally speaking but It does not really work for me.  Microtransactions suck enjoyment out of me due to my specific reasons why I play mmorpg's in first place.

The P2P games all have micro-transactions now as well in some form or another.  That part isn't going away.  It's just going to be thrown on top of the P2P model.

It's not whether "it" might work, or not, for the industry generally speaking.  It is that the P2P barrier of entry, or return, is going to be far too limiting.  Let's use RIFT as an example since it's releasing a new xpac soon.  In order to play the xpac I need to spend $40 (as a current subscriber) to play that content in addition to my subscription fees.  Once I stop paying the subscription my $40 investment is basically gone until I pony up more cash.  I'm now evaluating whether or not it's worth the cost because being able to enjoy that purchase is tied to additional endless fees.

Now if RIFT sold Storm Legion under B2P I could enjoy that without having to consider any additional costs I might need to pay out.  The barrier has just been lowered dramatically.

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5492

11/02/12 5:09:15 PM#59
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by Torvaldr

 

Does Gdemami really not get why MMO require some form of retention? 


 

And yet, no one was able to provide an answer to my question... Funny isn't it?

The point is very simple tho.


Does post-release development make more or same money than releasing new game?


You say the former is the only way for MMOs and I am very curious about reasoning backing such claim up...

It's not that no one is able to answer the question, but at this level, most of us should already be familiar with why that is and don't want to waste our time with a history lesson.  Ask a more pointed question if you have one.

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  CyclopsSlayer

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/31/04
Posts: 531

11/02/12 5:09:48 PM#60

Personal Stories just make me cry... *I* save the world, *I* rescue the Princess, *I* defeat the great evil... all to earn a special title the story tells me is all MINE. Then of course I see 200 other players standing around with the same title... :(  LOL

 

But yeah, I agree with Mr Murphy, this had been bandied about for years, it is nice to finally see the public voices recognizing and talking about this.

All these recycled products with some small single gimmick that the Devs play up as revolutionary. "Oh look, NO levels, we have FizzBins instead...", or "WE have <dramatic pause and effect voice> ACTION combat!!! Everything else is the same..."

 

Give players a reason to come back, make them hungry to see the content, make the Lore less insipid and more involving, provide a World the players can make their own and not just another Devs private park the players merely visit.  These will help bring a world to life and keep players around. 

Then and only then think about the gimmicks, as the adjuncts not as the stars of the release.

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