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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » How can a MMO justify subscription ?

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172 posts found
  DSWBeef

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/11/09
Posts: 771

11/02/12 6:10:59 AM#141
Originally posted by TangentPoint
Originally posted by Lobotomist

You asked about server cost, here it is :

I work in internet company - we have around 180 million users log in daily. Yet we have moved all our servers to Amazon cloud.

Plus we have a inhouse server cluster for content updates and main system (hardened)

This costs around 16 thousand dollars a month.

... more irrelevant stuff ...

 

You're spinning wheels and getting no traction, Lobomist.

In both your OP and this one, your entire "case" is one big argument from incredulity, drowning in conjecture, cherry-picked details and assumptions crafted specifically to suit your pre-determined narrative.

For starters, how much your company allegedly pays a month on server costs (we have only your word to go on, after all) is completely irrelevant. You don't know what the requirements or demands are for running and maintaining a MMORPG and, hence, have no idea what the costs are. That's not even accounting for how large the MMO is, how many concurrent players across how many "shards", and so on. Server/Network setups aren't cookie-cutter, "one size fits all" ordeals. You simply don't know what the costs are, you have nothing to compare against and hence, your $16,000 figure means absolutely nothing.

But let's play along, just for the heck of it. Let's say your $16,000/mth figure accurately represents the server costs alone for a MMORPG to run. If that MMORPG has a $15/mth sub fee, that means you need 1066 recurring subscribers every month, just to cover server costs.

But here's where it gets interesting,and your entire argument falls flat on its short-sighted face.

Not even counting expenses during development, post launch, to maintain a MMORPG requirest any, all, or even more than the following:

1) Ongoing salaries for:

Game Programmers, Tools Programmers, Artists (2d and 3D), Designers, Writers, Internal QA, Management, Secretarial staff, Marketing/PR staff, Musicians, Sound effects staff, Producer(s), Game/Creative Director, Off-line Customer Support Staff, Database programmers, In-Game GMs/support, Networking people, General IT, Accountants, Office maintenance staff, Custodial staff, Legal staff. In some cases, the company will have hired cooks to prepare breakfast and/or lunch for the office staff. And I'm sure there are others I'm forgetting.

That's just the warm bodies of which a development company can employ well over a hundred.

2) Ongoing Costs of Business:

Office rent, Electric Bill, Bandwidth Bill (for both company use and the MMO service), Server Bill, Phone Bills, Health/Medical Coverage, Software Purchasing/Licensing, Hardware Purchasing/Upgrading, Office Supplies, Food and Beverage services (vending machines, water coolers, etc), Advertising fees, miscellaneous business expenses like traveling, etc.

Let's not forget that in a typical situation, a portion of the revenue earned has to go back to the investors who made the development of the game possible in the first place.

Let's not forget that there are taxes to be filed every year, so a portion of the revenue has to be kept aside and not used for business purposes.

Certainly more things I'm not even aware of that are integral to running any business, MMORPG or otherwise.

So as you can see, if you're willing to, that $15 a month is going toward a whole lot more than server and bandwidth fees.

Your alleged $16,000 is just one of many expenses a MMORPG development company has to cover. Many of the on-going expenses are just to keep the business afloat - nevermind keeping a MMORPG up and running.

 

As for Subscriptions themselves...

You pay a sub fee because MMORPGs are a service; not just a game. You are paying $15 to be provided a service that allows you to log in and play any time you want, 24/7, day or night - excluding down-times, for up to 30 days at a time.

As has been mentioned by others elsewhere in this thread, subscriptions are just a long-standing, proven and perfectly effective model for providing an ongoing paid service. Just like cell phone service, magazine subscriptions, gym memberships, online music services, cable service and so many other things you could name, you pay them to provide you a service that - presumably - has a value that you find worth the recurring cost.

Just like any other on-going, fee-based service, when you feel that service is no longer worth what you're paying, you cancel your service and move on - assuming you're not locked into a contract.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with subscriptions. They're a perfectly legitimate, valid, time and road tested revenue model that are as relevant today as they've ever been - the claims of F2P/B2P proponents notwithstanding.

If you're interested in learning more about what actually goes into creating and maintaining a MMORPG, I suggest reading this book. I own it, have read through it a few times now and find it to be very informative and insightful on the topic, covering a lot of things people wouldn't even necessarily realize go into it.

Or, of course, you can continue talking nonsense and pulling things out of thin air.

 

 

 

 

AND WE HAVE A WINNER!

Playing: Archeage Alpha, War Thunder, World of Tanks
Waiting on: Archeage, Wild Star, Everquest Next and The Black Desert

  stevebmbsqd

Novice Member

Joined: 9/26/09
Posts: 457

"Evolution thru Revolution"

11/02/12 6:41:00 AM#142
Originally posted by TangentPoint
Originally posted by Lobotomist

You asked about server cost, here it is :

I work in internet company - we have around 180 million users log in daily. Yet we have moved all our servers to Amazon cloud.

Plus we have a inhouse server cluster for content updates and main system (hardened)

This costs around 16 thousand dollars a month.

... more irrelevant stuff ...

 

You're spinning wheels and getting no traction, Lobomist.

In both your OP and this one, your entire "case" is one big argument from incredulity, drowning in conjecture, cherry-picked details and assumptions crafted specifically to suit your pre-determined narrative.

For starters, how much your company allegedly pays a month on server costs (we have only your word to go on, after all) is completely irrelevant. You don't know what the requirements or demands are for running and maintaining a MMORPG and, hence, have no idea what the costs are. That's not even accounting for how large the MMO is, how many concurrent players across how many "shards", and so on. Server/Network setups aren't cookie-cutter, "one size fits all" ordeals. You simply don't know what the costs are, you have nothing to compare against and hence, your $16,000 figure means absolutely nothing.

But let's play along, just for the heck of it. Let's say your $16,000/mth figure accurately represents the server costs alone for a MMORPG to run. If that MMORPG has a $15/mth sub fee, that means you need 1066 recurring subscribers every month, just to cover server costs.

But here's where it gets interesting,and your entire argument falls flat on its short-sighted face.

Not even counting expenses during development, post launch, to maintain a MMORPG requirest any, all, or even more than the following:

1) Ongoing salaries for:

Game Programmers, Tools Programmers, Artists (2d and 3D), Designers, Writers, Internal QA, Management, Secretarial staff, Marketing/PR staff, Musicians, Sound effects staff, Producer(s), Game/Creative Director, Off-line Customer Support Staff, Database programmers, In-Game GMs/support, Networking people, General IT, Accountants, Office maintenance staff, Custodial staff, Legal staff. In some cases, the company will have hired cooks to prepare breakfast and/or lunch for the office staff. And I'm sure there are others I'm forgetting.

That's just the warm bodies of which a development company can employ well over a hundred.

2) Ongoing Costs of Business:

Office rent, Electric Bill, Bandwidth Bill (for both company use and the MMO service), Server Bill, Phone Bills, Health/Medical Coverage, Software Purchasing/Licensing, Hardware Purchasing/Upgrading, Office Supplies, Food and Beverage services (vending machines, water coolers, etc), Advertising fees, miscellaneous business expenses like traveling, etc.

Let's not forget that in a typical situation, a portion of the revenue earned has to go back to the investors who made the development of the game possible in the first place.

Let's not forget that there are taxes to be filed every year, so a portion of the revenue has to be kept aside and not used for business purposes.

Certainly more things I'm not even aware of that are integral to running any business, MMORPG or otherwise.

So as you can see, if you're willing to, that $15 a month is going toward a whole lot more than server and bandwidth fees.

Your alleged $16,000 is just one of many expenses a MMORPG development company has to cover. Many of the on-going expenses are just to keep the business afloat - nevermind keeping a MMORPG up and running.

 

As for Subscriptions themselves...

You pay a sub fee because MMORPGs are a service; not just a game. You are paying $15 to be provided a service that allows you to log in and play any time you want, 24/7, day or night - excluding down-times, for up to 30 days at a time.

As has been mentioned by others elsewhere in this thread, subscriptions are just a long-standing, proven and perfectly effective model for providing an ongoing paid service. Just like cell phone service, magazine subscriptions, gym memberships, online music services, cable service and so many other things you could name, you pay them to provide you a service that - presumably - has a value that you find worth the recurring cost.

Just like any other on-going, fee-based service, when you feel that service is no longer worth what you're paying, you cancel your service and move on - assuming you're not locked into a contract.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with subscriptions. They're a perfectly legitimate, valid, time and road tested revenue model that are as relevant today as they've ever been - the claims of F2P/B2P proponents notwithstanding.

If you're interested in learning more about what actually goes into creating and maintaining a MMORPG, I suggest reading this book. I own it, have read through it a few times now and find it to be very informative and insightful on the topic, covering a lot of things people wouldn't even necessarily realize go into it.

Or, of course, you can continue talking nonsense and pulling things out of thin air.

Why can't people understand this?

  User Deleted
11/02/12 7:09:34 AM#143

The better question is why people pay a subscription for mmorpg's instead of playing the huge amount of f2p games that are out.

 

I play games that I enjoy playing and have payment methods that I find acceptable. If I would find a non-p2w game without a subscription I would play it, but so far I haven't found an mmorpg without subscription that I had fun playing more than a few weeks. With subscription games, as long as I have fun playing them I pay, the moment I don't have fun, i stop paying.

 

I do play some of the indie games that are coming out, graphics aint as good, they usually are a bit short, but the game idea is fun so its well worth the 10-20 dollars they cost. For me to pay full price for a game it has to be something I expect to enjoy for quite a while

  Muntz

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/09/09
Posts: 290

11/02/12 9:01:55 AM#144
They don't need to justify it. It is the model they started with and a good deal of the customers are used to the model. I would really enjoy having a product where not only is the customer base used to the model they emotionally defend it as the only way it can be done right. 
  Malcanis

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/17/09
Posts: 3202

"A very special kind of stupidity"

11/02/12 9:10:47 AM#145
Originally posted by Lobotomist

Here is a question for you -

How can a modern themepark MMO justify box price + ongoing 15$ subscription ?

Are we being ripped of ?

 

Lets analyse here :

1. Server cost : Today cloud servers are dime and dozen , its actually much much cheaper than even couple years ago. Asking players to chip in for server cost - false

2. Engine development cost : Let assume that MMO engines are more complicated than your regular game engines. And so they cost more to develop. But today there are several licenced engines that are so good even the biggest companies use them - Players chipping in for engine cost - false

3. Game development cost : What makes MMO more expensive than single player RPG ? Amount of content ? Judging from todays trends I seen single player RPGs with same or more content than many MMO games at release. Yet they dont ask for subscription. And even if amount of content is a question. Why not make less content , and than charge for aditional content as DLC ? - Platyers chipping in for content - false

4. Constant updates : Yea. I heared that myth. Most of MMOs fire 80% of work force month after release. And all those "Monthly new content!" turns out to be just PR bull.. Even if new content comes after all , it happens once or twice - than it turns into payed mini expansions. So paying for developers developing something that we get to pay for again. - Players paying for constant updates - false

 

So what we are paying 15$ for ? 180$ yearly ? Plus 60$ on box price ... thats 240$ a year from each player.

Not bad. No wonder the market is full with MMO wannabies that planned to cash in on this golden goose !

 

I give credit to games like EVE that are sandbox , and PVP based. With amazing "all players on same server" technology and actual free updates all the time. Even they could live with B2P+F2P model - if there was no PVP balance to keep in mind.

 

But themepark PVE games ?

No excuse !

 

Discuss

 

 

 

What does "PVP" have to do with EVE's cost base or subscriptions? I agree that CCP are one of the few that actually earn a monthly sub, but they don't deserve it just because EVE has FFS PvP. Why is that inherently more expensive than PvE?

Providing all game expansions for free, continuing to provide further free expansions, providing a lengthy free trial, free client download, and continual improvement of the software and hardware are what earn them the right to charge a sub. Putting out a game that people want to play for a long time is what gives us the incentive to pay it.

"Fair deal" subscriptions like EVE's shouldn't be lumped in with the abusive SWTOR-style cash grabs, any more than insanely greedy cash shops like Allods should be allowed to discredit the F2P concept.

Give me liberty or give me lasers

  Onomas

Novice Member

Joined: 7/05/11
Posts: 1160

Sandbox is your only hope for a decent mmo ;)

11/02/12 9:18:12 AM#146

Going to the movies: 2 people x 10$ per ticket, plus soda and popcorn = 30$

Going out to eat: 2 people x 12$ average per plate and drink, plus a desert 3$ each, plus tip = 35$ average

Going fishing: gas for boat, minnows, worms, food, and drink = easily 100$

Going to the park: food/drink, gas to drive there, pay to get in = 20+$

Going to the amusement park: 2x 35$ tickets, food, drink, rides, parking fee, and gas to get there = 150$ easy

Going to a sports game, museum, club, bar, fast food place, and/or anything else = 15$+

 

Paying .50 cents per day (.30 cents for 6 month+ sub) = cheap entertainment.

Not having to worry about cash shops milking me = priceless.

 

Even B2P games like "gw2" costs you an arm and leg for the extras. F2P games you can easily spend more than 15$ a  month on cash shops.

 

Only reason i can see people not comfortable spending .50 cents a day is they are cheap or jobless. Because 15$ a  month is a bargain for 24/7 entertainment with free updates, items, content (unless you pay for expansion).

Find me something to do for an entire month that will not cost me more than 15$!

  Xasapis

Tipster

Joined: 1/12/07
Posts: 5608

11/02/12 9:23:14 AM#147
Originally posted by Muntz
They don't need to justify it. It is the model they started with and a good deal of the customers are used to the model. I would really enjoy having a product where not only is the customer base used to the model they emotionally defend it as the only way it can be done right. 

The model they started with was pay by the hour.

You're old enough to know that, hehe.

 

http://mmohuts.com/editorials/the-first-mmorpg

  Kiljaedenas

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/29/11
Posts: 466

To err is human, but to really f*ck things up you need a computer.

11/02/12 1:59:16 PM#148
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by Kiljaedenas
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by Kiljaedena

You forgot to mention a very key factor here: what are those users doing with the bandwidth? Browsing a few webpages, discussion forums or transferring the odd datafile or two  is extremely different than playing a modern MMO with 3D graphics, physics engines and perhaps twitch mechanics. If all your company is providing is a host for webpages and forums that statement of its cost and that it had more users than WoW is 100% invalid for a cost discussion on MMO server clusters.

Except we know that in game bandwidth usage is minimal.  I have a little 10Mbps DSL connection and can stream Netflix while my wife, son, daughter, and myself are gaming online in one form or another.

The major bandwidth costs are more likely associated with the client and asset downloads.  Some mmos use download services or some form of peer to peer.

It is very likely that a media heavy website could have a heavier bandwidth cost compared to the trickle that most mmos use.

I think you may be confusing something here. I am not talking about the Internet connection which communicates between the server cluster and a user's home computer. MMO hosting companies design their software so that the amount of data that has to travel over an internet connection is minimal. That's why for the vast majority of MMOs you have to download a client software; the client and the server communicate to each other through highly compressed and simple data packets being sent back and forth over the network. It's all the calculations that the server or client has to do in order to interpret one of those data packets and transform it into a 3D visual representation of where a character is and what they are doing which is where the hard work comes in. The server cluster has to process the data packets from all of the users on at one time, checking their coordinates and directional vectors and comparing it to its 3D terrain map, so that for example it can feed back to a client's file "Your character just bonked into a tree, stop his movement in that direction" etc, create that compressed data packet and send it to the client.

It's all the behind-the-scenes math that is the slow part. A server that's just hosting basic chatrooms and the odd file upload doesn't need to do even a fraction of the calculations that an MMO one does.

This post is an entirely different issue than your last post.

The last post is about the cost of bandwidth.  MMOs have a very low bandwidth requirement, outside of the client download, compared to some common internet activities like streaming videos, movies, music, and surfing media rich websites.  Compared to the costs associated with download terabytes of client files to your customers, operational bandwidth is cheap.  That is why some companies contract with a download service to provide the client download.

While your second post has some truth in it (linear algebra and physics calculations are complicated) the bandwidth costs to send that data is not costly.

The engine and third party tool licensing don't cost more for doing what they do.  That's a static cost that seems to be one of the things covered in the box fee.  By and far the most expensive cost are paying people to develop the game not bandwidth overhead.

Okay, so the use of the word "bandwidth" was the wrong one. Replace bandwidth with server processor use. That's what I meant.

Where's the any key?

  Kiljaedenas

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/29/11
Posts: 466

To err is human, but to really f*ck things up you need a computer.

11/02/12 2:03:09 PM#149
Originally posted by Malcanis
Originally posted by Lobotomist

Here is a question for you -

How can a modern themepark MMO justify box price + ongoing 15$ subscription ?

Are we being ripped of ?

 

Lets analyse here :

1. Server cost : Today cloud servers are dime and dozen , its actually much much cheaper than even couple years ago. Asking players to chip in for server cost - false

2. Engine development cost : Let assume that MMO engines are more complicated than your regular game engines. And so they cost more to develop. But today there are several licenced engines that are so good even the biggest companies use them - Players chipping in for engine cost - false

3. Game development cost : What makes MMO more expensive than single player RPG ? Amount of content ? Judging from todays trends I seen single player RPGs with same or more content than many MMO games at release. Yet they dont ask for subscription. And even if amount of content is a question. Why not make less content , and than charge for aditional content as DLC ? - Platyers chipping in for content - false

4. Constant updates : Yea. I heared that myth. Most of MMOs fire 80% of work force month after release. And all those "Monthly new content!" turns out to be just PR bull.. Even if new content comes after all , it happens once or twice - than it turns into payed mini expansions. So paying for developers developing something that we get to pay for again. - Players paying for constant updates - false

 

So what we are paying 15$ for ? 180$ yearly ? Plus 60$ on box price ... thats 240$ a year from each player.

Not bad. No wonder the market is full with MMO wannabies that planned to cash in on this golden goose !

 

I give credit to games like EVE that are sandbox , and PVP based. With amazing "all players on same server" technology and actual free updates all the time. Even they could live with B2P+F2P model - if there was no PVP balance to keep in mind.

 

But themepark PVE games ?

No excuse !

 

Discuss

 

 

 

What does "PVP" have to do with EVE's cost base or subscriptions? I agree that CCP are one of the few that actually earn a monthly sub, but they don't deserve it just because EVE has FFS PvP. Why is that inherently more expensive than PvE?

Providing all game expansions for free, continuing to provide further free expansions, providing a lengthy free trial, free client download, and continual improvement of the software and hardware are what earn them the right to charge a sub. Putting out a game that people want to play for a long time is what gives us the incentive to pay it.

"Fair deal" subscriptions like EVE's shouldn't be lumped in with the abusive SWTOR-style cash grabs, any more than insanely greedy cash shops like Allods should be allowed to discredit the F2P concept.

I think he means that because of Eve's extensive PvP a B2P+P2P system would introduce pay to win, which would shatter the whole system's balance. Eve MUST use a sub model to keep pay to win out of it.

Where's the any key?

  Abangyarudo

Novice Member

Joined: 6/01/07
Posts: 156

11/02/12 4:38:05 PM#150

I know the op and others wanted this to stay a conversation steeped in misinformation but let me tell you as a former video game student who acutally knows about this stuff what is really false: 

Server cost : yes if you want to host a website a regular server is fine to host an mmorpg needs unrestricted access to mess with the server. 90% of the companies you get servers from don't provide them except at crazy prices. This requires hardware to do and having people proficient enough to set up he servers. All of that costs alot of money the $15 usually goes to server costs and doesn't come close to covering all the other expenses. 

Engine development cost : You need server backend to run an mmorpg that is not available in 90% of commercial game engines. As an example the unreal engine needs to be heavily modified to play mmorpgs. This is why games like dc universe is menu and instance heavy.  The only commercial engine used for mmorpgs is the hero engine which I've heard from people who ya know acutally use it that it is not very user firendly and unlike commercial engines for regular video games does not come with the normal genre features prebuilt in.  

Game development cost: A mmorpg needs twice the staff of a regular video game for a bunch of reasons. Even after development finishes they need to keep alot of server techs available for any problems. In a regular video games multiplayer which is not as expansive these costs are not nesscary because of thnigs like instances. 

 Constant updates : So in regular video games I release my game and then move on to dlc. So like mmorpgs they need to keep staff for that and I release it. Most dlc run 10 to 15 dollars for a quarter of the content of a content update. They don't need to test the dlc at all because theres not so many rotating gears and associated problems with the acutal game. 

Also for the GW2 fan boys GW2 might as well just be a single player rpg with co-op the heavily instanced nature, combined with the lack of features leaves gw2 as hardly a mmorpg. So we can stop comaring the two when you see a game like say everquest 2 or WoW they are ten times the work to do just on the basis of not being as heavily instanced alone. Lets start comparing apples to apples shall we? 

PrinceDestiny Xfire Miniprofile
  Not_Khaeros

Novice Member

Joined: 6/10/12
Posts: 32

11/02/12 5:13:12 PM#151

Hey guys, didn't you know developing an MMO is totally free?

 

I mean, you don't have to purchase and host multiple servers to store player data and process interactions with the video game.  And even if you did, they're cheap, right?  Must be ten cents for 12 of them or something like that!  And putting them on the web is free, all we need is to hook up some wires and let the magical series of tubes do their work.  Web space?  Pfft, we can just put it all on dropbox!  Yeah!  And hiring a team of pressionals to monitor the servers and be on call in case shit breaks?  I'll just invite my mom into the datacenter, she'll take care of it.

 

Game engine licenses for businesses are real cheap too.  Practically nothing to get to use some of the quality engines.  They must hand them out at walmart or something.  Royalties?  Pfft, we're not a monarchy, I don't even know what that means!  It's also great that the game engine will ship with exactly everything we will ever need to make our game.  This way, we don't have to pay salaries for people to modify the engine to fit our needs.  Even if we did, all they need are some hot pockets, right?

 

MMOs totally don't need as much code as other games.  I mean, netcode?  That's just a word players swing around when they get some sort of network error.  There's no such thing as having to write code to make the communication between game and player work - the magical internet tubes take care of that for us, and all players type in binary, will never flood our servers, and we are immune to DDoS because we are behind seven proxies. 

 

Not to mention art assets.  Please!  I can just Google that shit.  No need to pay anyone to colour on a computer.  Seems strange that everything in my game has jagged edges or the remains of DeviantArt watermarks, but I don't care because I'm printing money off these internet sheeple!  Level and world design?  I'll just make a bunch of flat grass, some mountain ranges at the end of the border and call it the open world.  Hey, managed to get a buzzword in there too!  Since the world is on such a larger scale and players have freedom of movement in the world, I'm sure they won't notice so many repeat textures like in the last RPG we made.. right?

 

Yeah!  And after we release the game, we'll have robots man the community team, customer support team, balance team, AND the update team!  People love it when they call about account issues and hear Corsica asking them to press 1 for Spanish, and the robots will automagically create content that can be planned, analyzed, designed, implemented, tested, and deployed in one month intervals.  It's perfect!

 

 

 

 

 

  TigerAero

Novice Member

Joined: 1/09/09
Posts: 144

11/02/12 5:23:51 PM#152
Originally posted by ragz45

Your forgetting the monthly cost of bandwith (which is huge), cost of CSR, cost of IT & security guys, etc etc.

Also it depends on the studio.  Some studio's take that $15 a month and just bank it, while you as a player never see a return for it.  Some studio's like Trion actually view their game as a ongoing service, and you get quite a bit for your hard earned money.  You can't really generalize all studio's together in this instance.

IT & Security Guys are a dime a dozen. Everyone knows IT/Security are the first to go when layoffs happen. To say their cost which is probaly 1 per 300-500 exmployees...is quite minimal.

  User Deleted
11/02/12 6:06:59 PM#153
Originally posted by TigerAero
Originally posted by ragz45

Your forgetting the monthly cost of bandwith (which is huge), cost of CSR, cost of IT & security guys, etc etc.

Also it depends on the studio.  Some studio's take that $15 a month and just bank it, while you as a player never see a return for it.  Some studio's like Trion actually view their game as a ongoing service, and you get quite a bit for your hard earned money.  You can't really generalize all studio's together in this instance.

IT & Security Guys are a dime a dozen. Everyone knows IT/Security are the first to go when layoffs happen. To say their cost which is probaly 1 per 300-500 exmployees...is quite minimal.

IT guys are usually the last to go, actually.  It's the artists and designers that get canned until they are needed.  Of course, if a company has way too many IT staff or interns, then certainly they'd be among the first to go.  That's less about skillsets and more about overstaffing.

Unless of course you're lumping GM's and community mods and phone support guys into "IT guys."

  evolver1972

Novice Member

Joined: 3/18/11
Posts: 1126

What is "real"? How do you define "real"?

11/02/12 6:38:10 PM#154

I love the people who say that you're looking for a handout because you don't want to pay a subscription to a game that gives you such limited choices.

 

If I pay for the original game, buy expansions, and maybe even spend some cash in a CS, how am I asking for a handout?  How am I leeching the system even if I don't buy anything in the CS?  What a ridiculous argument.

 

And to compare a game, where you have such limited choices relatively speaking, to a service such as Netflix or cable is equally ridiculous.  In any particular game you only have so many things you can do and those things are only the choices the dev gives you.  Yes, even in a sandbox game you're limited by the choices the devs made in making the game.

 

With services like Netflix, I can watch anything they have available and there are myriad choices.  I can watch tv shows, or documentaries, or sci-fi movies, etc. etc.  What can you do in a game?  Make a character (based on the options given by the dev), and then run that character around doing things (based on the options given by the dev) so that you can progress that character to a point (chosen by the dev) so you can do some slightly different things (but not really different - killing things is killing things) in perpetuity.

 

I pay about $17/month to Netflix so I can be entertained according to what I feel like being entertained by.  Many of you pay $15/month to be entertained by the same thing over and over again.  So Netflix is totally justified charging for their service, MMO's are not justified charging almost the same amount for their limited service.

You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???

Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!

  Trudge34

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/08/12
Posts: 389

11/02/12 7:22:25 PM#155
Originally posted by evolver1972  Many of you pay $15/month to be entertained by the same thing over and over again.  So Netflix is totally justified charging for their service, MMO's are not justified charging almost the same amount for their limited service.

So if it entertains US for 15 bucks a month, why is there a problem? You bring up Netflix as a coutner...well who decides what goes on Netflix? They are extremely limited in movies IMO and really you're just paying to do the same thing over and over, just watch TV.

Played: EQ1 (10 Years), Guild Wars, Rift, TERA
Tried: EQ2, Vanguard, Lord of the Rings Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Runes of Magic and countless others...
Currently Playing: GW2

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  Comaf

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/13/10
Posts: 1133

I want an mmorpg where pvp matters, my enemies are not my race or class, and community matters.

11/02/12 8:40:11 PM#156

By earning it through creativity and a desire to do what it takes to build a strong community in an mmorpg.  So:

 

1.  PvP has to have meaning and cannot be another cut and paste BG with the same races and classes killing each other for gear

 

2.  There must be RP influenced GM events, meeting areas that are built for rp - i.e., taverns and festival zones.

 

3.  Powerful moderation of nasty public commentary

 

4.  Here's a big one:  creating an mmorpg in a way to inspire players to invest themselves in the game:  building houses, towns, and so forth.  Once a player gets to add a bit of themself to an mmorpg, it becomes more connective and immersive, hence, the player sticks around.

 

5.  Let's kill someone that is different than us.  Seems crude and harsh, but these games need to stop producing 5 race/class clones that faction out under guilds.  THis is pure laziness, marketed under a "we let you choose where and who you want to be with" sign.  Let's be creative - each race should from a fantasy standpoint - be loyal to its own.  Raise the elven flag of war, the dwarven flag, and so forth.  Otherwise, how cool would lord of the rings have been if the hobbits fought it out at the shire.  Nothing epic there.

  Zecktorin

Novice Member

Joined: 11/23/11
Posts: 235

11/02/12 8:43:01 PM#157
Like really your going to complain about 50 cents a day?
  pauly6478

Novice Member

Joined: 8/18/05
Posts: 301

11/02/12 8:46:33 PM#158
Originally posted by Comaf

By earning it through creativity and a desire to do what it takes to build a strong community in an mmorpg.  So:

 

1.  PvP has to have meaning and cannot be another cut and paste BG with the same races and classes killing each other for gear

 

2.  There must be RP influenced GM events, meeting areas that are built for rp - i.e., taverns and festival zones.

 

3.  Powerful moderation of nasty public commentary

 

4.  Here's a big one:  creating an mmorpg in a way to inspire players to invest themselves in the game:  building houses, towns, and so forth.  Once a player gets to add a bit of themself to an mmorpg, it becomes more connective and immersive, hence, the player sticks around.

 

5.  Let's kill someone that is different than us.  Seems crude and harsh, but these games need to stop producing 5 race/class clones that faction out under guilds.  THis is pure laziness, marketed under a "we let you choose where and who you want to be with" sign.  Let's be creative - each race should from a fantasy standpoint - be loyal to its own.  Raise the elven flag of war, the dwarven flag, and so forth.  Otherwise, how cool would lord of the rings have been if the hobbits fought it out at the shire.  Nothing epic there.

Disagree with every race having to stay with their own. I for one would slay damn near every last human on earth if fantasy became reality because humans are worthless cattle and dead weight. 

  Zecktorin

Novice Member

Joined: 11/23/11
Posts: 235

11/02/12 8:47:15 PM#159
Originally posted by evolver1972

I love the people who say that you're looking for a handout because you don't want to pay a subscription to a game that gives you such limited choices.

 

If I pay for the original game, buy expansions, and maybe even spend some cash in a CS, how am I asking for a handout?  How am I leeching the system even if I don't buy anything in the CS?  What a ridiculous argument.

 

And to compare a game, where you have such limited choices relatively speaking, to a service such as Netflix or cable is equally ridiculous.  In any particular game you only have so many things you can do and those things are only the choices the dev gives you.  Yes, even in a sandbox game you're limited by the choices the devs made in making the game.

 

With services like Netflix, I can watch anything they have available and there are myriad choices.  I can watch tv shows, or documentaries, or sci-fi movies, etc. etc.  What can you do in a game?  Make a character (based on the options given by the dev), and then run that character around doing things (based on the options given by the dev) so that you can progress that character to a point (chosen by the dev) so you can do some slightly different things (but not really different - killing things is killing things) in perpetuity.

 

I pay about $17/month to Netflix so I can be entertained according to what I feel like being entertained by.  Many of you pay $15/month to be entertained by the same thing over and over again.  So Netflix is totally justified charging for their service, MMO's are not justified charging almost the same amount for their limited service.

The choices on netflix are alreayd chosen for you. Its the choices the netflix guys decide to have available. They dont have every movie. Your logic is flawed lol. You watch a movie based on the availablity that Netflix has given you.

  Ichmen

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/15/06
Posts: 1234

hatred enriches.life is a prison, death a release.

11/02/12 9:01:34 PM#160

the only sub a video game is worthy of charging a month is about 6.99-9.99usd. if they are going to charge 30-60 bucks for a box/key + 30 for each Xpack they put out.  as well as include a cash shop for things. then they should not be charging 12.99+ 

reason being. i can pay 60 bucks for red alert 1 and play that for years without worry about the servers being offline. 

if im paying 60 bucks for say WoW which shuts the servers down the next day. im out that money as the game has no resale value.  the key is used so worthless and without a legal server to connect to the game is a coaster. 

frankly MMOs should be free client without having to pay for a cd key or box for installer. after that they can charge monthly. that way if they shut down (A-A/APB example) i do not agree with paying huge sums of cash for a cd installer that is typically out of date anyway.

Xpacks shouldnt be 30+ bucks either at most maybe 14 bucks or less as most of them are BS Xpacks and are infact small game patches (good example the newer The sims games most Xpacks for 30 bucks are typically small patches or limited content)

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