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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Hipsters... hipsters everywhere

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168 posts found
  Deivos

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/14/04
Posts: 1703

Iarð skal rifna, ok upphiminn.

11/01/12 2:45:08 PM#101

I wish to note that on this forum I have seen several people reminisce about the MMO Auto Assault.

 

I want to say that as objective as I can possibly try to be, I still saw that game as mechanically flawed and it's gameplay to be way too finite and sparse to every ge a 'good' game.

 

You can hop on the remark that 'something must have been good about it then', but I have to assume it was more so the notion of the game rather than the game itself that the people loving on it were so fond of.

 

Not a bad thing, AA had a novel concept, but as they designed the game it simply didn't work.

 

Or another example, APB (now Reloaded).

You might call the character customization the only redeeming value of the game. That is far from enough to keep people playing. Yet I know there is still a small community playing the title, myself included occasionally. I play that game even though I perceive it to be broken in most every aspect. Why? Because I enjoy playing games not always for their quality, but because of particular technical aspects and details that interest me.

 

I do this quite often really. Play titles that for the most part just aren't good because I want to pick apart particular mechanics that I think were good ideas, just not well done. This is exactly the case I have with APB. It was a game great in concept and the devs actually had some pretty good ideas, but they couldn't commit them to the game itself. Their implementation failed hard.

 

So you can nitpick and say 'there's still something good about the game', and that's true, but it's not accurate. Namely because at this point you are standing only on preference. There is no objective standard for what someone finds good about the title and if you start pointing out systems, you are going to rapidly find that there's people vehemently against them or otherwise the system itself isn't actually good, but you like the idea of it.

 

And that is perhaps an important piece of note. It's not so much an argument of the quality of the game, but from my experience people are way too fond of arguing about personal ideals. What they think is the right game, the right implementation, and the right conduct instead of taking an objective stance on what actually is being done with a game, what the design principles driving the title itself is, or the manner in which it has been implemented.

 

And that's where the hipster comment seems to come in. The word 'WoW clone' comes to mind. I don't personally use the phrase, but considering it's part of the standard syntax on this forum, I figure it's a known enough thing. How often have we had people who railed on games using that phrase, to the point that we've had threads just talking about the phrase itself?

And why? Is it fair to assume that, ignoring the crowd that simply parrots it at anything they don't like, there is perhaps a perception of an idelogy behind these titles being labeled WoW clones that these people draw similarity to if not in the function of the game then perhaps still in the reason for it's existence?

 

I would very much say there are many games, mmos included, that are an acquired taste. Entire genres themselves may be something a person would have to get used to playing before they can even tolerate them. When a game elects to do something notably different from the other titles within the genre it exists, it inevitably has the same result. Assuming one is making an informed response, they have to try and know the system before passing a judgement on if they like it or not, and much of their comfort with a new mechanic can tie directly into how handily they can grasp the system and how well it plays to their personal interests.

As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero. - Vaarsuvius

  Xthos

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/18/10
Posts: 2641

11/01/12 2:46:03 PM#102

Yeah!  Farmville is what your new MMOs should strive to be.  110,000,000 people cannot be wrong, and it has the staying power to keep over 63 million of those people!

 

The state of online gaming and quality is going nothing but up!

 

  Alot

Novice Member

Joined: 1/04/11
Posts: 1984

Minister of Propaganda for GW2 Fascist-Capitalist Party

11/01/12 2:48:04 PM#103


Originally posted by grimgryphon
Hipsters have beome the "new" mainstream, so you can't really call them hipsters (by definition) any longer.

YES!!!! It's about time somebody spoke the truth.

  Xthos

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/18/10
Posts: 2641

11/01/12 2:51:31 PM#104
Originally posted by Alot

 


Originally posted by grimgryphon
Hipsters have beome the "new" mainstream, so you can't really call them hipsters (by definition) any longer.

 

YES!!!! It's about time somebody spoke the truth.

 Does this mean that the average shallow MMO player is a hipster, and the OP has everything backwards?  Making him a self-hating hipster?  The world is spinning.....NOOOOOOO!

 

  User Deleted
11/01/12 2:55:23 PM#105
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by Quirhid
 

I've probably said this a dozen times before: No one plays shitty games. If people are flocking toward a game, there's something good in it. Even if you don't get it, even if I don't get it, clearly those people are getting something out of it.

Also, no matter how badly it fits your own preferences, popularity still remains the only objective measure of quality. It is evidence of some quality. You can't dismiss evidence just because you don't agree with it.

Don't be the Flat Earth Society-guy.

1. "Shitty" is a subjective term. So yes, people play "shitty games" in the opinions of others. Now some actually come out and try and point out why they feel said games are "shitty". Amazingly enough it has fk all to do with being a hipster. At no point do people say others are not getting something out of said games btw, so not sure what the point of that bit was.

 

2. If you use popularity as an argument for the quality of a product, then you have lost said argument. If you turn around and try to explain why the mechanics are popular, then well done, you have a good case. If you just say "well it's popular so ergo it's quality", then the /facepalm reply is never going to be far away. And with good reason.

 

I'll ignore the flat earth comment as it was utterly pointless.

  Yakamomoto

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/24/12
Posts: 385

11/01/12 3:08:34 PM#106
Originally posted by Psychow
Originally posted by Yakamomoto

Intelligent games never go mainstream, because developing games for "smart" gamers automatically creates a niche, and niche is not where the money is.

Look at EvE and TSW - mainstream success? Hardly.

Well I enjoy niche games, I don't like to play games everyone and his uncle plays.

 

I don't exclude myself just because it's popular. I play popular games or nitch. I'll play because I like it, not because some hipster says it's cool to or because some hype campaign tells me it's popular and a "must buy!!".

 

 

well there is this game which was and still is nothing but hype campaign with no substance, therefore my theory turned out to be correct , stay away from mainstream success and play the true gems

  Yakamomoto

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/24/12
Posts: 385

11/01/12 3:11:17 PM#107
Originally posted by Xthos

Yeah!  Farmville is what your new MMOs should strive to be.  110,000,000 people cannot be wrong, and it has the staying power to keep over 63 million of those people!

 

The state of online gaming and quality is going nothing but up!

 

haha yeah, that is sad but true.

 

  User Deleted
11/01/12 3:13:26 PM#108
Originally posted by Yakamomoto

well there is this game which was and still is nothing but hype campaign with no substance, therefore my theory turned out to be correct , stay away from mainstream success and play the true gems

What happens when a true gem also happens to be mainstream?

  TwoThreeFour

Novice Member

Joined: 3/26/12
Posts: 2148

11/01/12 3:33:58 PM#109
Originally posted by Enigmatus
Originally posted by Yakamomoto

well there is this game which was and still is nothing but hype campaign with no substance, therefore my theory turned out to be correct , stay away from mainstream success and play the true gems

What happens when a true gem also happens to be mainstream?

 

Well we can compare to real life: what happened when eating healthy became mainstream, what happened when exercising on a regular basis became mainstream, what happened when equality between genders became mainstream, what happened when democracy became mainstream, what happened when having intercourse became mainstream?

  User Deleted
11/01/12 3:37:20 PM#110
Originally posted by evolver1972

Just because something is popular doesn't mean it's good.

 

Hitler was popular.

 

So was disco.

 

The masses don't always know what they're talking about.  Which is why true democracy sucks.

 OMG quit reading my mind! GET OUTTA MY HEAD! hehe ^ ^ seriously tho you did speak exactly what i was thinking. good stuff. 

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18996

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

11/01/12 3:40:29 PM#111
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
Originally posted by Enigmatus
Originally posted by Yakamomoto

well there is this game which was and still is nothing but hype campaign with no substance, therefore my theory turned out to be correct , stay away from mainstream success and play the true gems

What happens when a true gem also happens to be mainstream?

 

Well we can compare to real life: what happened when eating healthy became mainstream, what happened when exercising on a regular basis became mainstream, what happened when equality between genders became mainstream, what happened when democracy became mainstream, what happened when having intercourse became mainstream?

I think in actual practice, none of those are mainstream, they all lie firmly in the niche market.  (well, except intercourse, that one is pretty much universal worldwide)

 

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Tamanous

Elite Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 1696

11/01/12 3:44:23 PM#112
Someone fix this old man's rocking chair. It must be squeaking while watching all these young whippersnappers from his porch.

You stay sassy!

  TwoThreeFour

Novice Member

Joined: 3/26/12
Posts: 2148

11/01/12 3:57:16 PM#113
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
Originally posted by Enigmatus
Originally posted by Yakamomoto

well there is this game which was and still is nothing but hype campaign with no substance, therefore my theory turned out to be correct , stay away from mainstream success and play the true gems

What happens when a true gem also happens to be mainstream?

 

Well we can compare to real life: what happened when eating healthy became mainstream, what happened when exercising on a regular basis became mainstream, what happened when equality between genders became mainstream, what happened when democracy became mainstream, what happened when having intercourse became mainstream?

I think in actual practice, none of those are mainstream, they all lie firmly in the niche market.  (well, except intercourse, that one is pretty much universal worldwide)

 

In several countries, specially among certain generations, those are mainstream. 

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5671

11/01/12 4:00:24 PM#114
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
Originally posted by Enigmatus
Originally posted by Yakamomoto

well there is this game which was and still is nothing but hype campaign with no substance, therefore my theory turned out to be correct , stay away from mainstream success and play the true gems

What happens when a true gem also happens to be mainstream?

Well we can compare to real life: what happened when eating healthy became mainstream, what happened when exercising on a regular basis became mainstream, what happened when equality between genders became mainstream, what happened when democracy became mainstream, what happened when having intercourse became mainstream?

The world becomes a happier place for 20 minute intervals.

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  Calerxes

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/06/09
Posts: 1659

11/01/12 4:13:28 PM#115
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Calerxes
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Quirhid

Doesn't matter. If you bring up up the Nazis or Hitler you lose the argument.

Kind of dubious if it constitutes an argument yet, as of the first response.

But you knew you were adopting a predjudicial stance, and so expected an argument, right?

(Careful, that's the classic, original definiton of "troll")

Its not prejudice, its an observation. Healthy critisism towards self-righteous posters who've become increasingly vocal lately. Anything mainstream is trash and anything they like and its under-appreciated.

Psh...

 

Ah! you're talking about GW2 fans then.... no wait a minute that must be wrong because GW2 is mainstream and under appreciated for its revolutionary gameplay, gamers just don't get it... that doesn't make sense when held up against your argument does it?

Is GW2 under appreciated?

 

Thats the feeling I get from fans.

This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.

  Calerxes

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/06/09
Posts: 1659

11/01/12 4:19:50 PM#116
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Calerxes

 Ah! you're talking about GW2 fans then.... no wait a minute that must be wrong because GW2 is mainstream and under appreciated for its revolutionary gameplay, gamers just don't get it... that doesn't make sense when held up against your argument does it?

Buh whut?

"There's a thread somewhere on mmorpg.com that isn't about GW2! Let's see if I can derail it."

Ah! but this is essence of why this thread exists in the first place, root out the source of the problem and ye shall be FREE!

This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.

  User Deleted
11/01/12 4:40:07 PM#117


Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Foomerang  

Originally posted by Quirhid   Have you noticed how everything popular seems to be bad and everything unpopular seems to be the greatest thing on earth? We are surrounded by hipsters, I tell you. And I hate hipsters... Its not like the games they like require a refined taste or anything. They're unpopular for a reason: they are crap. They love to make the McDonalds argument whenever it suits them, but when they encounter a game they like its like dining in a 3-Michelin-star restaurant. I've played enough games to know there's no such thing as refined taste. So take that fastfood metaphor and shove it. I know when I'm playing a mediocre game, and I'm not afraid to say so. Pirates of the Burning Sea was one of them. But only because I'm a sucker for Age of Sail-games. I'd only give it 6/10 but I still found it entertaining for good 3 weeks. Not everything I play is a masterpiece. So if something is popular, it must be good at something. Anyone who says "its full of shit" is talking out of their arse. There. I said it. I feel better for it.
  Everywhere? Name 1 member that fits your description and the quotes to back it up. I haven't seen a single member here who hates only mainstream big budget mmos and loves only small obscure mmos. I'm waiting patiently :)
It is supposed to be a reference, but off the top of my head I don't remember from where. Who fits the bill? -Basically your average forum dweller who bashes every modern MMO out there with every chance they get, talks about the good ol' days, hypes up indie MMOs and gets excited whenever the word sandbox gets thrown around.

I know many MMO purists too which fit the description, but I don't keep a list, sorry.



Ah ok so basically youre just whining about an overall feeling without thinking too much about reality. Thanks! Btw most people on these forums that like indie, old school, sandbox games also play the new shinies that come out every year. They may complain but they put up the cash and get their hands dirty. Part of me thinks you are referring to these 1 day old alt accounts that pop up everyday, talking trash about everything. In which case id say stop getting trolled to the point where youre making hipster hate threads haha. Try to remember where youre at and the context: an internet forum about mmorpgs.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

11/01/12 6:36:20 PM#118
Originally posted by Torvaldr

You're not on the soap box?  You've entered the thread, stepped up to the pulpit for correction or edification.  Does one need to be the OP of the thread to stand on the soap box?

As long as he's still occupying his soap box, then yes.  By definition.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Quirhid

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5515

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

 
OP  11/01/12 6:46:05 PM#119
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
 

1. "Shitty" is a subjective term. So yes, people play "shitty games" in the opinions of others. Now some actually come out and try and point out why they feel said games are "shitty". Amazingly enough it has fk all to do with being a hipster. At no point do people say others are not getting something out of said games btw, so not sure what the point of that bit was.

 

2. If you use popularity as an argument for the quality of a product, then you have lost said argument. If you turn around and try to explain why the mechanics are popular, then well done, you have a good case. If you just say "well it's popular so ergo it's quality", then the /facepalm reply is never going to be far away. And with good reason.

 

I'll ignore the flat earth comment as it was utterly pointless.

Ehh..? The right way to disprove my argument would be either to show that people indeed play bad games voluntarily or that there is something else which attracts players other than quality. Sort of what Deivos was doing a couple of posts back although he was digressing quite a bit.

You just grasp onto the terms I use which I can easily replace if they are not to your liking. You get nowhere by doing this. Instead, show me why the logic is wrong.

And if you think my logic is wrong. What explanation do you offer for popularity? Furthermore, do you think two games, one popular and one unpopular, are equals? Wouldn't you say the more popular one is more succesful and likely better than the other?

Popularity is evidence of some quality. I have always formed it like that. I never said popularity means its a quality product. WoW does something right. Rift does something right. Eve does something right. GW2 does something right. They are not full of shit, like some of the posters claim.

If we turn this around, I can claim that "unpopularity is a sign that something is wrong". Which goes to say Mortal Online, Darkfall, Fallen Earth, Xsyon, Vanguard, Warhammer Online, Star Trek Online etc. have done something wrong or have serious flaws in them.

I judge no one for liking any of those games. I am merely observing the popularity of games and what it tells us about said games. And to tie this to my original post. I despise people who dislike games because of their popularity, and their need to brand the said games and their players to justify their position. They don't say "too mainstream" - they say "its a WoW-clone", "ez-mode MMO", "the players are sheep", "another game for the console generation" or whatever.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  fenistil

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/11
Posts: 3016

11/01/12 7:06:17 PM#120
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
 

1. "Shitty" is a subjective term. So yes, people play "shitty games" in the opinions of others. Now some actually come out and try and point out why they feel said games are "shitty". Amazingly enough it has fk all to do with being a hipster. At no point do people say others are not getting something out of said games btw, so not sure what the point of that bit was.

 

2. If you use popularity as an argument for the quality of a product, then you have lost said argument. If you turn around and try to explain why the mechanics are popular, then well done, you have a good case. If you just say "well it's popular so ergo it's quality", then the /facepalm reply is never going to be far away. And with good reason.

 

I'll ignore the flat earth comment as it was utterly pointless.

Ehh..? The right way to disprove my argument would be either to show that people indeed play bad games voluntarily or that there is something else which attracts players other than quality. Sort of what Deivos was doing a couple of posts back although he was digressing quite a bit.

You just grasp onto the terms I use which I can easily replace if they are not to your liking. You get nowhere by doing this. Instead, show me why the logic is wrong.

And if you think my logic is wrong. What explanation do you offer for popularity? Furthermore, do you think two games, one popular and one unpopular, are equals? Wouldn't you say the more popular one is more succesful and likely better than the other?

Trends, bandwagon effect, peer pressure, marketting.  That's what got I was able to though fast.  I am sure there I missed something. 

Decision making is a process that is not purely rational thing where we only weight objective measureable indicators.

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