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11/01/12 2:45:08 PM#101
I wish to note that on this forum I have seen several people reminisce about the MMO Auto Assault.
I want to say that as objective as I can possibly try to be, I still saw that game as mechanically flawed and it's gameplay to be way too finite and sparse to every ge a 'good' game.
You can hop on the remark that 'something must have been good about it then', but I have to assume it was more so the notion of the game rather than the game itself that the people loving on it were so fond of.
Not a bad thing, AA had a novel concept, but as they designed the game it simply didn't work.
Or another example, APB (now Reloaded). You might call the character customization the only redeeming value of the game. That is far from enough to keep people playing. Yet I know there is still a small community playing the title, myself included occasionally. I play that game even though I perceive it to be broken in most every aspect. Why? Because I enjoy playing games not always for their quality, but because of particular technical aspects and details that interest me.
I do this quite often really. Play titles that for the most part just aren't good because I want to pick apart particular mechanics that I think were good ideas, just not well done. This is exactly the case I have with APB. It was a game great in concept and the devs actually had some pretty good ideas, but they couldn't commit them to the game itself. Their implementation failed hard.
So you can nitpick and say 'there's still something good about the game', and that's true, but it's not accurate. Namely because at this point you are standing only on preference. There is no objective standard for what someone finds good about the title and if you start pointing out systems, you are going to rapidly find that there's people vehemently against them or otherwise the system itself isn't actually good, but you like the idea of it.
And that is perhaps an important piece of note. It's not so much an argument of the quality of the game, but from my experience people are way too fond of arguing about personal ideals. What they think is the right game, the right implementation, and the right conduct instead of taking an objective stance on what actually is being done with a game, what the design principles driving the title itself is, or the manner in which it has been implemented.
And that's where the hipster comment seems to come in. The word 'WoW clone' comes to mind. I don't personally use the phrase, but considering it's part of the standard syntax on this forum, I figure it's a known enough thing. How often have we had people who railed on games using that phrase, to the point that we've had threads just talking about the phrase itself? And why? Is it fair to assume that, ignoring the crowd that simply parrots it at anything they don't like, there is perhaps a perception of an idelogy behind these titles being labeled WoW clones that these people draw similarity to if not in the function of the game then perhaps still in the reason for it's existence?
I would very much say there are many games, mmos included, that are an acquired taste. Entire genres themselves may be something a person would have to get used to playing before they can even tolerate them. When a game elects to do something notably different from the other titles within the genre it exists, it inevitably has the same result. Assuming one is making an informed response, they have to try and know the system before passing a judgement on if they like it or not, and much of their comfort with a new mechanic can tie directly into how handily they can grasp the system and how well it plays to their personal interests. As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero. - Vaarsuvius |
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11/01/12 2:46:03 PM#102
Yeah! Farmville is what your new MMOs should strive to be. 110,000,000 people cannot be wrong, and it has the staying power to keep over 63 million of those people!
The state of online gaming and quality is going nothing but up!
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Alot
 Hard Core Member
Joined: 1/04/11
Minister of Propaganda for GW2 Fascist-Capitalist Party |
11/01/12 2:48:04 PM#103
YES!!!! It's about time somebody spoke the truth. |
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11/01/12 2:51:31 PM#104
Originally posted by Alot Does this mean that the average shallow MMO player is a hipster, and the OP has everything backwards? Making him a self-hating hipster? The world is spinning.....NOOOOOOO!
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11/01/12 2:55:23 PM#105
Originally posted by Quirhid 1. "Shitty" is a subjective term. So yes, people play "shitty games" in the opinions of others. Now some actually come out and try and point out why they feel said games are "shitty". Amazingly enough it has fk all to do with being a hipster. At no point do people say others are not getting something out of said games btw, so not sure what the point of that bit was.
2. If you use popularity as an argument for the quality of a product, then you have lost said argument. If you turn around and try to explain why the mechanics are popular, then well done, you have a good case. If you just say "well it's popular so ergo it's quality", then the /facepalm reply is never going to be far away. And with good reason.
I'll ignore the flat earth comment as it was utterly pointless. |
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11/01/12 3:08:34 PM#106
Originally posted by Psychow well there is this game which was and still is nothing but hype campaign with no substance, therefore my theory turned out to be correct , stay away from mainstream success and play the true gems |
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11/01/12 3:11:17 PM#107
Originally posted by Xthos haha yeah, that is sad but true.
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11/01/12 3:13:26 PM#108
Originally posted by Yakamomoto What happens when a true gem also happens to be mainstream? |
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11/01/12 3:33:58 PM#109
Originally posted by Enigmatus
Well we can compare to real life: what happened when eating healthy became mainstream, what happened when exercising on a regular basis became mainstream, what happened when equality between genders became mainstream, what happened when democracy became mainstream, what happened when having intercourse became mainstream? |
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11/01/12 3:37:20 PM#110
Originally posted by evolver1972
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Kyleran
 Bitter Vet™
Joined: 9/13/06
Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV |
11/01/12 3:40:29 PM#111
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour I think in actual practice, none of those are mainstream, they all lie firmly in the niche market. (well, except intercourse, that one is pretty much universal worldwide)
"What gamers want ... is new game play patterns different from what they've experienced before" - Axehilt |
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11/01/12 3:44:23 PM#112
Someone fix this old man's rocking chair. It must be squeaking while watching all these young whippersnappers from his porch.
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11/01/12 3:57:16 PM#113
Originally posted by Kyleran In several countries, specially among certain generations, those are mainstream. |
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11/01/12 4:00:24 PM#114
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour The world becomes a happier place for 20 minute intervals. |
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11/01/12 4:13:28 PM#115
Originally posted by Quirhid
Thats the feeling I get from fans. This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session. |
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11/01/12 4:19:50 PM#116
Originally posted by Icewhite Ah! but this is essence of why this thread exists in the first place, root out the source of the problem and ye shall be FREE! This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session. |
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Foomerang
Advanced Member
Joined: 11/10/05
A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still |
11/01/12 4:40:07 PM#117
Ah ok so basically youre just whining about an overall feeling without thinking too much about reality. Thanks! Btw most people on these forums that like indie, old school, sandbox games also play the new shinies that come out every year. They may complain but they put up the cash and get their hands dirty. Part of me thinks you are referring to these 1 day old alt accounts that pop up everyday, talking trash about everything. In which case id say stop getting trolled to the point where youre making hipster hate threads haha. Try to remember where youre at and the context: an internet forum about mmorpgs. Themepark is not a sub genre, its an excuse. |
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11/01/12 6:36:20 PM#118
Originally posted by Torvaldr As long as he's still occupying his soap box, then yes. By definition. -Nearly every single bad trend in MMO development was started by the developers.--Wordiz |
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Originally posted by bunnyhopper Ehh..? The right way to disprove my argument would be either to show that people indeed play bad games voluntarily or that there is something else which attracts players other than quality. Sort of what Deivos was doing a couple of posts back although he was digressing quite a bit. You just grasp onto the terms I use which I can easily replace if they are not to your liking. You get nowhere by doing this. Instead, show me why the logic is wrong. And if you think my logic is wrong. What explanation do you offer for popularity? Furthermore, do you think two games, one popular and one unpopular, are equals? Wouldn't you say the more popular one is more succesful and likely better than the other? Popularity is evidence of some quality. I have always formed it like that. I never said popularity means its a quality product. WoW does something right. Rift does something right. Eve does something right. GW2 does something right. They are not full of shit, like some of the posters claim. If we turn this around, I can claim that "unpopularity is a sign that something is wrong". Which goes to say Mortal Online, Darkfall, Fallen Earth, Xsyon, Vanguard, Warhammer Online, Star Trek Online etc. have done something wrong or have serious flaws in them. I judge no one for liking any of those games. I am merely observing the popularity of games and what it tells us about said games. And to tie this to my original post. I despise people who dislike games because of their popularity, and their need to brand the said games and their players to justify their position. They don't say "too mainstream" - they say "its a WoW-clone", "ez-mode MMO", "the players are sheep", "another game for the console generation" or whatever. Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference. -Author unknown, attributed to Mark Twain |
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11/01/12 7:06:17 PM#120
Originally posted by Quirhid Trends, bandwagon effect, peer pressure, marketting. That's what got I was able to though fast. I am sure there I missed something. Decision making is a process that is not purely rational thing where we only weight objective measureable indicators. |
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OMG quit reading my mind! GET OUTTA MY HEAD! hehe ^ ^ seriously tho you did speak exactly what i was thinking. good stuff. 
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