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MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » Do you stand by your score rating of GW2 ?

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167 posts found
  User Deleted
10/27/12 4:44:51 PM#61
Originally posted by Pilnkplonk
Originally posted by grimal
Originally posted by Eir_S
Originally posted by grimal

The problem I have is that for a site called "MMORPG.COM", there should only be MMOPRGs listed here.

That said, titles like GW2, GW1, D3, Torchlight 1/2, etc should not be listed and/or given a rating on this site.  It's like reading a review for a theatrical production in the movie reviews.  It lends to confusion and just misleads the reader. 

Except that GW2 is an MMORPG.  This is my confused face.  :-\

This is where you and I disagree. :(

Yeah, and the rest of the civilized world. If GW2 is not a mmorpg then WoW or EQ are not mmorpgs as well. Jeez, what the hack are you yammering about?

Its something new with grimal that he picked up its awesome though lol not an MMORPG let him be. =P

 

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

10/27/12 4:46:07 PM#62
Originally posted by Banquetto

 


Originally posted by grimal
The problem I have is that for a site called "MMORPG.COM", there should only be MMOPRGs listed here.

 

That said, titles like GW2, GW1, D3, Torchlight 1/2, etc should not be listed and/or given a rating on this site.


 

GW2 is not Massive?

Not Multiplayer?

Not Online?

Not Role-Playing?

Not a Game?

Which of the five lets it down?


p.s. no argument about GW1, D3 or Torchlight.

he thinks its not an RPG....

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  mysticmouse

Novice Member

Joined: 4/05/11
Posts: 84

10/27/12 4:47:42 PM#63
I gave it a 7.5 and am having fun with it.
  grimal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/11/05
Posts: 2300

10/27/12 4:49:40 PM#64
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by Banquetto

 


Originally posted by grimal
The problem I have is that for a site called "MMORPG.COM", there should only be MMOPRGs listed here.

 

That said, titles like GW2, GW1, D3, Torchlight 1/2, etc should not be listed and/or given a rating on this site.


 

GW2 is not Massive?

Not Multiplayer?

Not Online?

Not Role-Playing?

Not a Game?

Which of the five lets it down?


p.s. no argument about GW1, D3 or Torchlight.

he thinks its not an RPG....

I would say it's more of a COOP MMO than a full blown MMORPG.  It lacks the progression and character dedication an RPG does, hence I left out that part.

Many people have stated in these own forums they found GW2 to be "soulless" or "MMO-lite" or "MMO Coop" so I am not out of left field here.

But what I was getting at, when you already predefine D3 or GW1 as an MMO, rate it as 8 or 8.5 and then Joe Blow comes around, sees that, goes and picks it up based on that....well, that's a bit misleading, wouldn't you say?  If you are going to call it MMORPG.COM, stick with MMORPGs.  Want to cover  MMOA?  Create an additional site or section for it.

 

"I'm sorry, if you were right, I'd agree with you." - Robin Williams

  Mithrandolir

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/28/05
Posts: 1712

Our doubts are traitors and make us lose the good we oft' might win, by fearing to attempt

10/27/12 4:50:39 PM#65

Yes. I am not a big fan of themeparks in general, but this, in my opinion, is one of the best post 2001.

 

  eGumball

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/21/12
Posts: 152

10/27/12 4:55:30 PM#66
Originally posted by grimal
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by Banquetto

 


Originally posted by grimal
The problem I have is that for a site called "MMORPG.COM", there should only be MMOPRGs listed here.

 

That said, titles like GW2, GW1, D3, Torchlight 1/2, etc should not be listed and/or given a rating on this site.


 

GW2 is not Massive?

Not Multiplayer?

Not Online?

Not Role-Playing?

Not a Game?

Which of the five lets it down?


p.s. no argument about GW1, D3 or Torchlight.

he thinks its not an RPG....

I would say it's more of a COOP MMO than a full blown MMORPG.  It lacks the progression and character dedication an RPG does, hence I left out that part.

Many people have stated in these own forums they found GW2 to be "soulless" or "MMO-lite" or "MMO Coop" so I am not out of left field here.

But what I was getting at, when you already predefine D3 or GW1 as an MMO, rate it as 8 or 8.5 and then Joe Blow comes around, sees that, goes and picks it up based on that....well, that's a bit misleading, wouldn't you say?  If you are going to call it MMORPG.COM, stick with MMORPGs.  Want to cover  MMOA?  Create an additional site or section for it.

 

 

What´s funny is that Guild Wars 2 has more RPG elements than the most MMORPGs in the industry, icluding WoW and TSW. What you call an MMO is subjevtive, as much as the fact the I think of WoW as a Mario clone. MMOs are chosen by the industry, the media and the '' community ''. Even if the ''so called'' MMOs aren´t, they will still be considered this way, this is buessnis, not a playing house, where you decide what things should be and shouldn´t. Not to mention the fact, that the RPG elements that you are '' saying '' thery are missing from GW2 may not even be considered RPG for many people.

  ThomasN7

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/17/07
Posts: 6659

"Had to be me. Someone else might have gotten it wrong.” - Mordin Solus

10/27/12 5:05:00 PM#67
Theme park or not it is still a 7 in my opinion which is just average.
  Masa1

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/12/04
Posts: 322

10/27/12 5:10:15 PM#68
My original rating of 3.5 stays, since I had to throw a lot of money for new PC.
  Yamota

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6511

"I fight so you don't have to."

10/27/12 5:15:35 PM#69
Originally posted by Enigmatus
7 - 8 is still about right to me.

Yep, I gave it an 8 and I feel that is the highest it deserves. 1-2 month of fun and then move on. I have spent more in other MMOs but it was one of the best fun I had in those 1-2 month, atleast in PvE.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

10/27/12 5:16:49 PM#70
I still think in the context of the swtor score, gw2 score is pretty accurate.
  Yamota

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6511

"I fight so you don't have to."

10/27/12 5:20:57 PM#71
Originally posted by Pilnkplonk
Originally posted by grimal
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by Banquetto

 


Originally posted by grimal
The problem I have is that for a site called "MMORPG.COM", there should only be MMOPRGs listed here.

 

That said, titles like GW2, GW1, D3, Torchlight 1/2, etc should not be listed and/or given a rating on this site.


 

GW2 is not Massive?

Not Multiplayer?

Not Online?

Not Role-Playing?

Not a Game?

Which of the five lets it down?


p.s. no argument about GW1, D3 or Torchlight.

he thinks its not an RPG....

I would say it's more of a COOP MMO than a full blown MMORPG.  It lacks the progression and character dedication an RPG does, hence I left out that part.

Many people have stated in these own forums they found GW2 to be "soulless" or "MMO-lite" or "MMO Coop" so I am not out of left field here.

But what I was getting at, when you already predefine D3 or GW1 as an MMO, rate it as 8 or 8.5 and then Joe Blow comes around, sees that, goes and picks it up based on that....well, that's a bit misleading, wouldn't you say?  If you are going to call it MMORPG.COM, stick with MMORPGs.  Want to cover  MMOA?  Create an additional site or section for it.

 

[mod edit]

I think you are the one who needs to stop. You feel you can still progress after 200 hours, great for you. Alot of us others do not, we dont find much fun in doing every heart quest and every super mario jumping nonsense, that is more of a chore than progressing anything. And we are perfectly entitled to our opinion that the game has no progression after you hit 80, get exotic gear and doing the meaningless WvW for hours and hours.

Not saying I agree with the guy that it is not an MMORPG, what I am saying is that it is quite a light MMORPG in the sense that there isn't much to do at endgame worth doing. Which is true for almost all ThemeParks.

  khamul787

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/20/11
Posts: 187

10/27/12 5:27:52 PM#72
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by Pilnkplonk
Originally posted by grimal
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by Banquetto

 


Originally posted by grimal
The problem I have is that for a site called "MMORPG.COM", there should only be MMOPRGs listed here.

 

That said, titles like GW2, GW1, D3, Torchlight 1/2, etc should not be listed and/or given a rating on this site.


 

GW2 is not Massive?

Not Multiplayer?

Not Online?

Not Role-Playing?

Not a Game?

Which of the five lets it down?


p.s. no argument about GW1, D3 or Torchlight.

he thinks its not an RPG....

I would say it's more of a COOP MMO than a full blown MMORPG.  It lacks the progression and character dedication an RPG does, hence I left out that part.

Many people have stated in these own forums they found GW2 to be "soulless" or "MMO-lite" or "MMO Coop" so I am not out of left field here.

But what I was getting at, when you already predefine D3 or GW1 as an MMO, rate it as 8 or 8.5 and then Joe Blow comes around, sees that, goes and picks it up based on that....well, that's a bit misleading, wouldn't you say?  If you are going to call it MMORPG.COM, stick with MMORPGs.  Want to cover  MMOA?  Create an additional site or section for it.

 

[mod edit]

I think you are the one who needs to stop. You feel you can still progress after 200 hours, great for you. Alot of us others do not, we dont find much fun in doing every heart quest and every super mario jumping nonsense, that is more of a chore than progressing anything. And we are perfectly entitled to our opinion that the game has no progression after you hit 80, get exotic gear and doing the meaningless WvW for hours and hours.

Not saying I agree with the guy that it is not an MMORPG, what I am saying is that it is quite a light MMORPG in the sense that there isn't much to do at endgame worth doing. Which is true for almost all ThemeParks.

It is not an opinion that there is no progression after you hit 80. It is simply a falsehood; there *is* progression. You simply don't like it. That does not mean it does not exist. If there is something I don't like, I don't pretend it doesn't exist just to support my theories.

That is what Grimal is doing. He can think GW2 isn't an MMO all he wants; he is objectively false. 

He can think there is no RPG or progression in it, and he would be objectively false.

He can, however, not like GW2's style of progression and RPG. This does not mean the features aren't present.

  Yamota

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6511

"I fight so you don't have to."

10/27/12 5:33:06 PM#73
Originally posted by khamul787
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by Pilnkplonk
Originally posted by grimal
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by Banquetto

 


Originally posted by grimal
The problem I have is that for a site called "MMORPG.COM", there should only be MMOPRGs listed here.

 

That said, titles like GW2, GW1, D3, Torchlight 1/2, etc should not be listed and/or given a rating on this site.


 

GW2 is not Massive?

Not Multiplayer?

Not Online?

Not Role-Playing?

Not a Game?

Which of the five lets it down?


p.s. no argument about GW1, D3 or Torchlight.

he thinks its not an RPG....

I would say it's more of a COOP MMO than a full blown MMORPG.  It lacks the progression and character dedication an RPG does, hence I left out that part.

Many people have stated in these own forums they found GW2 to be "soulless" or "MMO-lite" or "MMO Coop" so I am not out of left field here.

But what I was getting at, when you already predefine D3 or GW1 as an MMO, rate it as 8 or 8.5 and then Joe Blow comes around, sees that, goes and picks it up based on that....well, that's a bit misleading, wouldn't you say?  If you are going to call it MMORPG.COM, stick with MMORPGs.  Want to cover  MMOA?  Create an additional site or section for it.

 

[mod edit]

I think you are the one who needs to stop. You feel you can still progress after 200 hours, great for you. Alot of us others do not, we dont find much fun in doing every heart quest and every super mario jumping nonsense, that is more of a chore than progressing anything. And we are perfectly entitled to our opinion that the game has no progression after you hit 80, get exotic gear and doing the meaningless WvW for hours and hours.

Not saying I agree with the guy that it is not an MMORPG, what I am saying is that it is quite a light MMORPG in the sense that there isn't much to do at endgame worth doing. Which is true for almost all ThemeParks.

It is not an opinion that there is no progression after you hit 80. It is simply a falsehood; there *is* progression. You simply don't like it. That does not mean it does not exist. If there is something I don't like, I don't pretend it doesn't exist just to support my theories.

That is what Grimal is doing. He can think GW2 isn't an MMO all he wants; he is objectively false. 

He can think there is no RPG or progression in it, and he would be objectively false.

He can, however, not like GW2's style of progression and RPG. This does not mean the features aren't present.

It is not simply falsehood. Once you hit 80 and get exotic gear, anything you do after that will only marginally affect your character. Observe here that I am saying character and not you as a player. You can ofcourse be a better player but I am talking about your character.

As for the game not being an MMORPG I dont think it is objectively false. MMORPGs were originally about virtual worlds and ThemeParks are arguably not virtual worlds but rather virtual ThemeParks.

  Pilnkplonk

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/02/10
Posts: 1566

10/27/12 5:37:28 PM#74
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by Pilnkplonk
Originally posted by grimal
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by Banquetto

 


Originally posted by grimal
The problem I have is that for a site called "MMORPG.COM", there should only be MMOPRGs listed here.

 

That said, titles like GW2, GW1, D3, Torchlight 1/2, etc should not be listed and/or given a rating on this site.


 

GW2 is not Massive?

Not Multiplayer?

Not Online?

Not Role-Playing?

Not a Game?

Which of the five lets it down?


p.s. no argument about GW1, D3 or Torchlight.

he thinks its not an RPG....

I would say it's more of a COOP MMO than a full blown MMORPG.  It lacks the progression and character dedication an RPG does, hence I left out that part.

Many people have stated in these own forums they found GW2 to be "soulless" or "MMO-lite" or "MMO Coop" so I am not out of left field here.

But what I was getting at, when you already predefine D3 or GW1 as an MMO, rate it as 8 or 8.5 and then Joe Blow comes around, sees that, goes and picks it up based on that....well, that's a bit misleading, wouldn't you say?  If you are going to call it MMORPG.COM, stick with MMORPGs.  Want to cover  MMOA?  Create an additional site or section for it.

 

[mod edit]

I think you are the one who needs to stop. You feel you can still progress after 200 hours, great for you. Alot of us others do not, we dont find much fun in doing every heart quest and every super mario jumping nonsense, that is more of a chore than progressing anything. And we are perfectly entitled to our opinion that the game has no progression after you hit 80, get exotic gear and doing the meaningless WvW for hours and hours.

Not saying I agree with the guy that it is not an MMORPG, what I am saying is that it is quite a light MMORPG in the sense that there isn't much to do at endgame worth doing. Which is true for almost all ThemeParks.

I agree with you, except for the stopping bit. It is your personal opinion that it lacks motivation beyond level 80... and my personal opinion is that it doesn't. And in this perspective we are BOTH right. (shocking I know). "Personal opinions" are much more valuable than "facts" in showbiz, trust me. No one gives a sh*** how "objectively good" a movie is - because there is no such thing as pure "objectivity" in art. None whatsoever, EXCEPT in purely technical terms such as which effing genre or form this piece belongs to.

I'll be the first to yell that GW2 at the moment lacks something in player-motivation department, and on a more fundamental level than "what to do beyond 80". Check my post history and you'll see. Imo, the biggest problem GW2 has right now is the lack of specific rewards for specific accomplishments, and that by ditching the old ingenious GW1 system and replacing it with shopping mall tokens and karma ANet did make a long-term mistake. Sadly, at the moment, GW2 offers only 2 main goals, and they are a) get to 80 and b) once you're 80 complete the map. And they are both the same for all players. Which is dull and non-RP, in my opinion. IMO players should be able to choose their "grand quests," some awesome thing that would take them through many adventures to accomplish. GW1 had that down pat with skill hunting and imo GW2 dropped the ball with trying to be "more accessible" (incidentally the same happened with late addition of "heart quests" which no one really likes.)

But again, these are my opinions based on my experiences in GW2 and my gaming and RL history asa whole. We can argue about this and have fun while doing so. Flat statements "this is not a mmorpg because I don't "feel the magic" simply don't factor in any mature discussion.

  User Deleted
10/27/12 5:42:40 PM#75

I think I gave it about an 8 or 9 as a themepark/short term game and a 4 as an mmorpg/longer term game.

 

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/365985/Oh-look-another-amateur-rambling-opinion-piece.html

 

Think that's about right, but I didn't write my review until I had experienced endgame anway.

  User Deleted
10/27/12 5:52:30 PM#76
Originally posted by Pilnkplonk
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by khamul787
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by Pilnkplonk
Originally posted by grimal
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by Banquetto

 


Originally posted by grimal


 

 

[mod edit]

Ticking off daily events or collecting titles is hardly "role playing".

 

"Oh look I killed 500 skritt and got a title I must be RP'ing!!".

 

The gear grind has been replaced by a skin/title grind. Doesn't sound like a big break from the "Wow-rot" quite frankly.

  User Deleted
10/27/12 5:53:15 PM#77

Yeah along with the majority it seams I would stand by my rating .

8

  Yamota

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6511

"I fight so you don't have to."

10/27/12 5:55:15 PM#78
Originally posted by Pilnkplonk
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by khamul787
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by Pilnkplonk
Originally posted by grimal
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by Banquetto

 


Originally posted by grimal
The problem I have is that for a site called "MMORPG.COM", there should only be MMOPRGs listed here.

 

That said, titles like GW2, GW1, D3, Torchlight 1/2, etc should not be listed and/or given a rating on this site.


 

GW2 is not Massive?

Not Multiplayer?

Not Online?

Not Role-Playing?

Not a Game?

Which of the five lets it down?


p.s. no argument about GW1, D3 or Torchlight.

he thinks its not an RPG....

I would say it's more of a COOP MMO than a full blown MMORPG.  It lacks the progression and character dedication an RPG does, hence I left out that part.

Many people have stated in these own forums they found GW2 to be "soulless" or "MMO-lite" or "MMO Coop" so I am not out of left field here.

But what I was getting at, when you already predefine D3 or GW1 as an MMO, rate it as 8 or 8.5 and then Joe Blow comes around, sees that, goes and picks it up based on that....well, that's a bit misleading, wouldn't you say?  If you are going to call it MMORPG.COM, stick with MMORPGs.  Want to cover  MMOA?  Create an additional site or section for it.

 

[mod edit]

I think you are the one who needs to stop. You feel you can still progress after 200 hours, great for you. Alot of us others do not, we dont find much fun in doing every heart quest and every super mario jumping nonsense, that is more of a chore than progressing anything. And we are perfectly entitled to our opinion that the game has no progression after you hit 80, get exotic gear and doing the meaningless WvW for hours and hours.

Not saying I agree with the guy that it is not an MMORPG, what I am saying is that it is quite a light MMORPG in the sense that there isn't much to do at endgame worth doing. Which is true for almost all ThemeParks.

It is not an opinion that there is no progression after you hit 80. It is simply a falsehood; there *is* progression. You simply don't like it. That does not mean it does not exist. If there is something I don't like, I don't pretend it doesn't exist just to support my theories.

That is what Grimal is doing. He can think GW2 isn't an MMO all he wants; he is objectively false. 

He can think there is no RPG or progression in it, and he would be objectively false.

He can, however, not like GW2's style of progression and RPG. This does not mean the features aren't present.

It is not simply falsehood. Once you hit 80 and get exotic gear, anything you do after that will only marginally affect your character. Observe here that I am saying character and not you as a player. You can ofcourse be a better player but I am talking about your character.

As for the game not being an MMORPG I dont think it is objectively false. MMORPGs were originally about virtual worlds and ThemeParks are arguably not virtual worlds but rather virtual ThemeParks.

[mod edit]

I am sorry to burst your bubble mate but, inspite of the meaning of RPG, very very few are actually doing any role playing in MMOs. And this is a fact which has been studied and proven many times, since the release of UO.

But if you are making the argue of role playing progression, heck that is infinite. You can have no leveling, no weapon or skills progress and continue with role playing progression forever because that is such an abstract activity.

And dungeon and map completions is now role playing? Come on man, you are talking to a nerd who used to actually role play those pen and paper games when I was a kid. Role playing is not about finishing maps or dungeons but rather fleshing out the role of you as a virtual character and sadly very little of that is going on in MMORPGs and has been like that for over a decade.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19148

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

10/27/12 6:05:45 PM#79
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by QuicklyScott
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by QuicklyScott
Originally posted by Bad.dog
Originally posted by Connmacart

Why do you care OP. You have made your dislike of the game more than abundantly clear. Do you have a need to feel some kind of justification for your attitude or something?

Why not do it for TSW instead. 

+1 hit the nail on the head again

Well, this is a public forum.  Hating something and not caring about something are very different outlooks.  Posting your opinions, whether they are "negative" or "positive" is a form of entertainment in a sense (if it wasn't why would any of us), so it really doesn't matter if he has made his dislike of the game abundantly clear.  If he came here everyday for multiple hours, then I could see logic in avoiding a forum of a game you disliked, because then you're using these forums in a different context.  I don't think that is the case though, so what is wrong with his actions.

 

Essentially, you are just annoyed that he doesn't share your views....right?

if you can't see the difference between someone not having the same opinion or not liking a game and straight trolling.. then.. well i dunno

 Doesn't look like trolling to me.  I'm obviously too stupid -  I can't tell the difference.  Maybe you define trolling differently.

im going off the mmorpg.com definition of trolling

Trolling

  • Posting excessive negative comments or baiting others to respond in a negative manner is considered trolling on the MMORPG.com forums.
    For example: If there is one game that you did not enjoy, voicing your opinion is encouraged. Posting this opinion in every thread concerning that game to the point that it disrupts all other conversation is not tolerated.

Topic Hijacking

  • Posting comments within a thread which severely disrupts the original conversation is prohibited at MMORPG.com.
    Example: Asking whether a game has PvP in a thread about crafting materials found in a new expansion is Topic Hijac

Guess this acceptable however..... as this thread has gone way off topic at this point. 

I can' t change my rating since I never played, but I will state that any rating that is in the extremes is being dishonest, regardless what end of the spectrum it lies in.

 

Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, you speak as if these are bad things?
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Pilnkplonk

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/02/10
Posts: 1566

10/27/12 6:08:59 PM#80
Originally posted by Yamota

[mod edit]

I am sorry to burst your bubble mate but, inspite of the meaning of RPG, very very few are actually doing any role playing in MMOs. And this is a fact which has been studied and proven many times, since the release of UO.

But if you are making the argue of role playing progression, heck that is infinite. You can have no leveling, no weapon or skills progress and continue with role playing progression forever because that is such an abstract activity.

And dungeon and map completions is now role playing? Come on man, you are talking to a nerd who used to actually role play those pen and paper games when I was a kid. Role playing is not about finishing maps or dungeons but rather fleshing out the role of you as a virtual character and sadly very little of that is going on in MMORPGs and has been like that for over a decade.

On the last one we can agree, I'm an old hand at PnP's as well. However, in the RPGs I've run, the no1 rule was that each character's motivation is his own. As a game master I wouldn't ever presume on my players to follow some designed pre-set path I've made for them. (We were a punkish, anarchist nerd bunch back then. We had some special names for GMs who couldn't handle freeform and were stuck with reading boxed descriptions in TSRs modules, but I digress...)

If we consider a PC to be the equivalent of a game master, then todays standard in RPGs is not much better than "canned adventures" right out of Dungeon magazine (that's your standard themepark nowadays). To me the level above that would be " the perfect freeform" - a GM who has the whole world in his mind/notebook and just lets the players roam about and do weird stuff... But in them old days such sessions invariably ended in rapine, pillage and falling off the edge of the world, one way or another. (aka what passes for sandboxes in mmos). Imo the third level and the ultimate one is a combination of the two - a GM which provides full freedom to his players and yet is competent enough to design a riveting story on the fly, no matter what the players choose to do... and if the world and the whole system is rich enough, the players will naturally and spontaneously start behaving "in character" and they will have epic adventures without being led by their noses.

In all my 20+ years of weekly gm-ing (I've let off a bit though in the past few years, RL family stuff etc) I've maybe had 5-6 such sessions, so... Imo we are demanding pretty high standards from something that is, when you get down to it, just dumb machines executing limited sets of instructions designed by mere mortals.

Peace.

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