Originally posted by MindTrigger

I'm not going to argue your "nonsense" claim, since Microsoft has a lot better experts than you or I, and they made the call.

More and more people are choosing mobile devices over full computers. The lines are being further blurred by devices such as Surface and Phablets.  Head-mounted and other types of hidden/ubiquitous computing will be here soon enough as well.  Depending on which sources you follow, some say tablets are killing laptops in sales, but also leading people to purchase desktops if a tablet is going to be their main "roaming" device.

By post-pc, no one means the PC is going away.  It is, increasingly, taking a back seat in pure numbers, to mobile devices.  I'm as big of a friggin geek as they come, and I use my iPad at home more than anything else. It replaced my livingroom laptop.  This is also common for my clients now.  Obviously type-heavy work is a different matter.

You can whine and be an old curmugeon about new operating systems if you want.  I've heard it about every Windows release since we went from 3.x to 95.  It's not going to change the way things are going.  I've read that as many as 80% of people won't ever own Windows 8.  I think this is more true in Enterprise than at home.  However, Windows 9,10 probably isn't going to return to the old start bar, so you might as well get over that now.

As for input, yeah clearly the keyboard/mouse will be here a long time.  However, as more people use other forms of input on their mobile devices, they will expect the same on their computers.  I can't tell you how many times I reach up to touch things on my regular LCD screens these days. Gesture is ancillary.  It works with touch and voice better than alone.

If you want to claim that Microsoft has the real experts, then you should realize that I'm only quoting them in claiming that it's a PC-plus era, not a post-PC era.

I'm not claiming that Microsoft shouldn't try to support tablets, cell phones, and whatever else anyone comes up with.  I'm only claiming that, in addition to supporting new types of input, they should continue to support older types.

Win 8 is just the next step in controlling what you can use on your computers. I thought Genuine Advantage (LOL) would have pushed people to start coding more software for Linux. It didn't so neither will Win8. 

Originally posted by spikers14

Originally posted by Quizzical

-----

As for the original post, thanks for sharing your experiences.  As I see it, there are three very different classes of cases where Microsoft will take criticism for changing things:

1)  You can still do something that you used to be able to do, but the way you do it now is different.  Not really better or worse, but just different.  The only real problem is that we're used to the old way and not the new one.

2)  You can still do something that you used to be able to do, but now it's much harder.

3)  There are things that you used to be able to do that you now cannot do at all.  This can be a big problem if you still want to do them.

Part of the problem is that on launch day, the distinction between the three classes isn't always immediately obvious.  Criticisms of the first type will soon blow over; once everyone is used to the new way, we won't miss the old way.

The second type is about trade-offs.  Any particular task could be made very easy by having a large button to do that particular task constantly visible in the center of the screen.  But you cannot do that for every task at once.  Good UI design is about making the things that you want to do a lot easy, while the things that you only infrequently want to do are relegated to the more awkward methods.

The third type is the problem.  Windows RT will probably come in for reams of criticism over it, once people buy Windows RT machines and then learn that most of the software they want to run can't run.  But Windows 8 might see a lot less of it.

-----

Microsoft touts a new search function, but I'm curious whether they've restored the great search functionality that Windows 98 had--and XP, Vista, and 7 all lacked.  With Windows 98, you could specify a string of text and a place to search and it would return all files area you specify (a folder and its subfolders) that contained the given string anywhere in the file.  More recent versions can't do that, or at least, I spent hours trying to figure out how in XP before giving up, and have likewise tried and failed to figure out how to do it in Vista and 7.

Windows 7 can find a file with a specified name, or a specified portion of a name, but that only helps if you remember what a file is named.  Windows XP couldn't even do that much; you could tell it to find all files with such and such name, and it would miss some.  I think that the difference was supposed to be performance optimizations; the Windows XP file search function ran much, much faster than the Windows 98 one.  The problem is that the way it got the performance increase is by not searching everything.  Fast and wrong is useless.

 Control Panel --> Folder Options --> Search Tab. Click "Always search file names and content"

Its always been there, albeit, its very "out of the way". Most of this has to do with indexing, which is a feature either missing or poorly implemented in earlier version of Windows.

 

By the way, I really liked your post, but all of that has applied since DOS, Windows 3.1. Every iteration leaves SOMETHING behind. This is not specifically a Windows 8 issue. Hell, even Unix, Mac OS X/9, and Linux suffer from the same problems. Its what software developers call "job security". 

It works.  Thank you.  I never dug into it as deeply in Windows 7 as I did with XP, as I had simply given up by the time I got 7.  It's unlikely that I'd have missed such an option when I was searching in XP, as I know that I did go through control panel and look at all of the folder options with a fine-toothed comb, probably on multiple occasions.

I view Windows 8 like Windows ME give it a 6 months they will have learned there lesson and have something else better.

Originally posted by Ividnaelax
I think Windows 8 will be the new Windows ME. I have not tried Windows 8, nor do I want to use it on any system that I have. I have seen screen shots and advertisements of the new OS and I think it will piss a lot of us old school Windows users off.

Am I the only person in the world that liked Windows ME?

---

Originally posted by bigsmiff

---

Originally posted by Ividnaelax I think Windows 8 will be the new Windows ME. I have not tried Windows 8, nor do I want to use it on any system that I have. I have seen screen shots and advertisements of the new OS and I think it will piss a lot of us old school Windows users off.

---

Am I the only person in the world that liked Windows ME?

---

Very likely.

Originally posted by bigsmiff

Originally posted by Ividnaelax
I think Windows 8 will be the new Windows ME. I have not tried Windows 8, nor do I want to use it on any system that I have. I have seen screen shots and advertisements of the new OS and I think it will piss a lot of us old school Windows users off.

Am I the only person in the world that liked Windows ME?

Me was the most buggy product I had ever seen Microsoft come out with.

At the time I was working for a drug chain any time we got a new PC in we formatted it to 98 Until the boss made the decision to go with XP only after 98 was discontinued and we could not get the licensing any more.

Honestly I don't know anybody who left ME installed more than a week.

Originally posted by Ridelynn

 

---

Originally posted by bigsmiff

---

Originally posted by Ividnaelax I think Windows 8 will be the new Windows ME. I have not tried Windows 8, nor do I want to use it on any system that I have. I have seen screen shots and advertisements of the new OS and I think it will piss a lot of us old school Windows users off.

---

Am I the only person in the world that liked Windows ME?

Very likely.

There was nothing really wrong with it for me, though it was buggy for some at launch.  It's just one of those versions people saw no point in switching to.  Windows 8 is very likely that for some people.  I'm interested to see what comes from the Windows 8 app store to enhance the experience.  I'm also looking at doing a little development for it.

I would argue, that as far as just plain old Operating Systems go, that Unix (and all it's variations) have handily won. It's not just AT&T Unix (which I guess now belongs to Novell), or Linux, or OS X, it's the culmination of all of these.

The fact that it did go open all those years ago. Now, people are using it without even realizing it's underneath powering everything. Nearly ~every~ NAS I've seen in the last 5 years has used some form of Linux on a SOC. Nearly ~every~ smartphone is running some variation of Unix (Android is Linux based, iOS is Mach Unix based). I can't count how many routers and other network devices are either directly or indirectly Unix-powered. Going past that, we see every-day devices like Blu-Ray players, incredible devices like Rasberry Pi, and the vast bulk of network server systems.

Unix/Linux may not have won on the desktop, but I'd argue they have handily won the fight that mattered. So in reality, I would call it a Post-PC world. Everyone uses computers in so many different ways that couldn't have even been imagined back in the 1980's, when we saw our first versions of Windows come out. Microsoft has long been the king of the desktop (and hence, the PC), but that hasn't been the fight that really mattered all along. To borrow (and bend) a SPJ metaphor - that's like being the king of the semi-trucks; sure it's important if you need to drive a truck, but in a world where the vast majority of vehicles aren't freight-hauling trucks, it's not quite as significant.

It doesn't matter if you call it Post-PC or Plus-PC, or whatever. People use desktop PC's in much the same manner they have for the past few decades - data entry, work, some entertainment & media consumption, but it hasn't overtaken or killed any of the previous industries (except possibly the print industry, but I don't know that the PC alone necessarily did that as much as the Internet did with all the various devices that can connect). The PC still exists, and will continue to exist, because it's very hard to replace a sit-down (or semi-mobile in the case of a laptop) workstation, where you can do data entry (writing a book, coding a program, updating a spreadsheet, entering items into a database, etc), or need to do lots of various generic tasks - all of which a PC will continue to excel at. But we've seen other devices come in and fill various niches, some take away from the PC, some compliment the PC, others do things that a PC could never do (for various reasons). The PC will chug along just fine, just like trucks are still out on the road - they serve an important function that you just can't quite perform the same with a bicycle or a Prius.

I've been using Win8 Pro through my MSDN for about a month now.  I like it and when I get permission I'll be using it at work.

The new start menu was the most jarring adjustment.  It took me a bit to figure out how to make it work for me.  I've got the apps customized now for my work flow.  I organize the apps I use into columns according to type or how I would use them.  So my database and coding tools are in one column, office in another, games, etc.

My most common apps I still pin to the task bar so I rarely leave the desktop.

I like how it integrates my Microsoft account and services.  The modern apps and the store haven't impressed me much.  For mobile apps they will mostly be fine.  There are a lot of the key services available (netflix, google, xbox music, hulu, messenger, etc), but they're aren't better than their desktop or browser based counterparts.

The ribbon in the file explorer threw me a little.  The other thing is how you access some configuration tools and the right hand flyout.  I like that the flyout is context sensitive so I get settings for snap-in / settings manager I'm using.  I don't like that the flyout closes when you interact with the desktop.  For example, I VPN a lot and using a password manager, like KeePass, and then plugging in user/password combos doesn't work.  The flyout close and reset the text fields when you tab back over to the desktop to copy/paste the password.  So there are some UI element issues to sort out, but nothing game breaking.

I did have the DNS server issue with Windows Update after installing Office 2010, SQLServer 2012, and Visual Studio 2010.  This install could cause a DNS resolution problem that required manually configuring the DNS to 4.4.4.2.  That seems to have been resolved in a subsequent update.

I'm more than happy to use Win8 and it is just as effective for what I do, than Win7 has been.  For a cheap upgrade, $40 or less, I would upgrade from Win7, but probably not if I had to pay more than that.

I just wish I had a WP8 instead of a Galaxy S3.

---

Originally posted by MindTrigger

---

Originally posted by Ridelynn  

---

Originally posted by bigsmiff

---

Originally posted by Ividnaelax I think Windows 8 will be the new Windows ME. I have not tried Windows 8, nor do I want to use it on any system that I have. I have seen screen shots and advertisements of the new OS and I think it will piss a lot of us old school Windows users off.

---

Am I the only person in the world that liked Windows ME?

---

Very likely.

---

There was nothing really wrong with it for me, though it was buggy for some at launch.  It's just one of those versions people saw no point in switching to.  Windows 8 is very likely that for some people.  I'm interested to see what comes from the Windows 8 app store to enhance the experience.  I'm also looking at doing a little development for it.

---

The fact that Win2k came out right before WinME, that it worked very well, and that ME had a very buggy launch. As long as you didn't have application compatibility issues with 2k, there was no reason to go to ME. Most people just thought of 2k as the "Professional" edition, and it really was just a continuation of NT, but then ME rolled out as the consumer product. 2k was full NT kernal, ME still had a lot of the 95/98 16/32-bit kernel mashup in it.

That, and the fact that XP shipped like a year later, it was short lived and seemed to serve no purpose. 2K was the successor to 98/NT4 for most people out in the business/enterprise world, and XP was right on it's heels. Really, the only thing that ME brought to the table was native USB support.

If it hadn't been so buggy at launch (Win98 was fairly stable, Win2k we still have some servers running on at work), it may have had a chance, or at least seen in a more positive light.

Depending on how fast Win9 comes out, you may be right about Win8 being the next WinME... although I doubt it. Win8 is largely based on the very stable Win7 core (with a few tweaks). The UI is the major difference, so I would be surprised if Win8 ends up being as buggy as WinME was, or as hard to support as Vista was (with all it's missing device drivers). It may very well be comparable though on the basis of the very severe UI changes alone - a lot of people bemoaned XP's (by Metro's standards) tame UI changes to the classic Win95/98/2k/ME theme, and that those changes were enough to delay XP's adoption for a long time - although they didn't stop the eventual onslaught of adoption and it's continued perseverance. Maybe we will see something similar with Win8. Hard to say this early on.

Originally posted by Yamota
I dont think this hybrid tablet-desktop OS is "where the wind is blowing". It just shows that Microsoft is out of touch as Apple was smart enough to realise that tablets/phones and desktops are vastly different animals and why they didnt bridge their desktop OS with their phone/tablet one. It is like trying to mimic driving a car like a motorcycle, sorry it cannot be done. They are too different.

still waiting on this interactive desktop experience :)

http://www.geeksofdoom.com/2010/06/02/is-the-minority-report-computer-technology-five-years-away/

Originally posted by Ridelynn

Let me preface this by: I like Windows 7. A lot. In fact, I like it almost as much as I like OS X.

 

Hipsters and senior citizens like OSX, which are you?  Seriously though that has got to be the most braindead stripped down OS i've ever used, we have in on our work computers and its nothing but a hassel.  We are constantly having to load up Windows or Linux VMs to get around its limitations.  Apple does mobile well, because mobile is best simple... but it sucks at desktops.

Anyway itt took me 15-30 minutes to acclimate to Windows 8's control scheme and layout and after that it was absolutely fine, it's actually improved on many fronts.  Stability is rock solid, I haven't had a single issue w/ software, and the customization levels are outstanding.

I was excited when we first learned that Windows 8 was doing away with the Start Menu as the intended hub of the Windows environment, since I used the Start Menu rather little in XP, much less in Vista, and have never once clicked ‘All Programs’ in Windows 7. I've never liked the Start Menu and find my navigation much faster without it. Especially in Windows 7 where I can just press the Windows key, twitch out a few characters from the software's name and have it open in a tiny fraction of the time it would take me to hunt it down in the Start Menu.

I have yet to actually try Windows 8, though. Might do so this weekend.

It actually is not hard to make any monitor a touch screen.  They have a sensor you can attach to your screen that detects if your finger crosses a certain point and treats it as a click on the screen at that point.  Its also a little useful since if you are careful you will not smudge the screen.  With current touch screens, capacitive touch is not important so a simple touching/not touching system works.

You have to remember that they are not expecting people to just use a keyboard and mouse with their PC anymore.  They are hoping for a game they also use Kinect for the PC to handle things like video-conferencing, voice chat, and gesture/voice commands.  Even though a keyboard is fast, saying something can be faster in a couple cases and can improve work flow.

The other thing I see this OS attempting is to tie all these technologies into a simple user interface to not overwhelm users or make them get adjusted to 3 different interfaces like they do now.  However, I find the attempt not so successful due to the incompatibility between Windows 8, Windows RT, and Windows Phone 8.  They require 3 seperate environments where they could have only needed to make 2.  This overcomplicates full support for developers across all 3 platforms.  I can see in future iterations of Windows they may tie these 3 environments closer together.

On Windows 8 and Windows RT, I think this could be a positive move as businesses do not need a robust computer.  Windows RT also offers stiffer competition in the CPU space where it currently is only Intel, AMD, and VIA.  However, if you are in IT this could be a nightmare.  Like people asking why their ARM cannot play Skyrim.

The thing I really want to see is Windows go into car infotainment.  After using Windows Phone 7 for so long, I would like it to be on a 10" touchscreen dash.  Right now my touchscreen dash uses Windows CE 5.0, and the Windows CE 7 component only recently came out.

---

Originally posted by Draemos

---

Originally posted by Ridelynn Let me preface this by: I like Windows 7. A lot. In fact, I like it almost as much as I like OS X.  

---

Hipsters and senior citizens like OSX, which are you?  Seriously though that has got to be the most braindead stripped down OS i've ever used, we have in on our work computers and its nothing but a hassel.  We are constantly having to load up Windows or Linux VMs to get around its limitations.  Apple does mobile well, because mobile is best simple... but it sucks at desktops.

Anyway itt took me 15-30 minutes to acclimate to Windows 8's control scheme and layout and after that it was absolutely fine, it's actually improved on many fronts.  Stability is rock solid, I haven't had a single issue w/ software, and the customization levels are outstanding.

---

It's a nice GUI on top of Mach. I guess if you can't figure out Mach it would be difficult, but many of the tools underneath are the same or very similar open source tools you have on Linux (apache, postgre, mysql, php, OpenLDAP, BIND, postfix, dovecot, VNC, etc etc etc). I don't think of myself as a hipster, and I can't draw social security yet, so sorry to not fit into your stereotype. The reason I like OS X so much is because there's a unix underpinning, and it's nice to be able to drop down and get something done (especially little things like ssh or rsync) that are just totally missing on a stock Windows install (sure, they exist third party, but working on client machines I don't always have access to a full suite of third party tools). Maybe if I knew PowerShell as well I wouldn't feel that way, but the fact that 95% of what works on Linux works also on OS X Terminal, makes it very handy for me.

Congratulations on picking up Win8 in 15-30 minutes.

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by Yamota
I dont think this hybrid tablet-desktop OS is "where the wind is blowing". It just shows that Microsoft is out of touch as Apple was smart enough to realise that tablets/phones and desktops are vastly different animals and why they didnt bridge their desktop OS with their phone/tablet one. It is like trying to mimic driving a car like a motorcycle, sorry it cannot be done. They are too different.

still waiting on this interactive desktop experience :)

http://www.geeksofdoom.com/2010/06/02/is-the-minority-report-computer-technology-five-years-away/

Much closer than 5 years away... February 2013 in fact:

https://leapmotion.com/

Back on topic... had a hell of a time upgrading to 8 from 7. Instalation stalled at the same spot (device driver load at the point where it asks you to pick a color--USB mouse and KB dead) and then it reverted to 7... finally tracked it down to the Cyborg MMO-7 devices...uninstalled them and update completed, then reinstalled them and all is well. Performance-wise it seems identical to 7. the interface does take some getting used... I miss the "X" to close windows, alt-f4 is a poor replacement. Luckily 7 is just lurking there at the bottom left corner.