At least I can respect this guys opinion on the game.

However, WvWvW is not pointless. It is very fun with a good group/guild that takes it serious and tries to come out on top as the best server week in and week out. War is a zerg my friend so get used to the zerging.

I don't think people are burned out on MMOs (some are of course), just sick of how each new game is shallower than the next. I know at least I want some depth brought back into MMOs. I've said it before, the games use to have 4 or 5 roles, then down to a trinity, then 2 and even 1.

Everyone can do everything! And everyone gets a prize just for showing up! Bleh.  Next probably just get gear for having a character made, lol.

Also, the games don't need to be raid based, hardcore gear progression to work, but there has to be something to keep people wanting to play. Even in EQ, many people didn't really do the top raiding and were happy to group and kill crap. They still got gear, but the AAs they got helped them progress even further, customize their characters more. Same with RAs in daoc.

Even WoW has been simplified, which is probably part of the reason they keep bleeding subs. Sure it went up with MOP, but most likely start to go down again because it is even more simplified than ever.

For a while I thought I was burned out on MMOs, because every new game I tried didn't last. Then I went back to old ones I use to play and sustained longer play periods than I have in any game post WoW.

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by aesperus

To some degree yes.

However, times are VERY different now. The mentallity most players had back then, is much different from the ones we have now. In the 'golden days' of MMOs, people were more interested in exploring this new form of gaming. It was more social, but it wasn't always due to game design. It was because things were still new, and players were much more willing to work together trying to figure out this new type of game. It was still a fronteir to explore. Games were also a lot more simple back then. They didn't have as many features, as big of a world, combat was generally fairly simple as well, inspite having a large skillset.

People now expect WAY more from an MMO than what we had back then. The shining example of sandbox atm, is still Eve. It's the only sandbox MMO still going strong. Yet it still doesn't have the same numbers as most of the themeparks. Just being a sandbox isn't going to be enough. Even if we were to bring back UO with modern graphics, I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't enough for most players.

Wait what? Eve has more than 350.000 subs and have been over 300.000 for years. There are only two sub-based MMOs which can best that and that is WoW and Aion and the latter one is F2P hybrid. All other ThemeParks have dwindling subs. such as TERA, Secret World, WAR, AoC, DCU and even SW:TOR has drastically lost subs and is headed for F2P.

If anything Eve shows that there is a demand for sandbox games and not like ThemeParks where they only stay for a few months but rather years. Ofcourse that does not mean a UO copy would be automatically a success, games have evolved since then and ofcourse sandbox MMOs need to also evolve. And imo it is the future of MMO', ThemeParks will soon all go the F2P route and it will only be sandbox MMO's which can provide the reason to sub to an MMO because they will have longetivity, ThemeParks do not.

Correct. ~350k subs.

Again, 350k subs for the current 'shining example' of sandbox MMOs. This is the most successful game you can point to when referencing a sandbox atm.

As for games that can best that, if you limit it to current subscription models. You have WoW, and Aion, yes. While it's hard to know which numbers to trust, SWTOR also seems to meet that mark (though barely). If you expand your themeparks out of 'sub only' models, you will also find yet more games that meet that population marker.

However, if you were to look within the 'true sandbox' category of MMO. What's the next highest sandbox MMO's population?

Finding GW2 boring after 1.5 months !=  MMO burnout.

You expressed much of how I felt recently with GW2, Spock.  But I did go in not expecting any longevity, so I'm not leaving with any disappointment.  I had some fun and felt it was worth the money spent.  I felt the same way you did about feeling weaker as I got higher level, especially in the 70+ areas.  I forced myself to reach 80, but didn't enjoy a moment of the final stretch, especially not being able to take two steps without being attacked in Orr.  And once I dinged, I just stopped logging in.

A lot of charm in the world, and I appreciate the love ANet poured into the game.  But as others have said, we each enjoy different game styles and I expect GW2 to continue to do well even though it wasn't for me.  So back to my old MMO.

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by Yamota

 

 

 

for me PVP, huge world to explore,  multiple branching stories, classes that all have unique playstyles all add to the longevity for me.. i'm playing 3 classes in PVE currently and each has had a very differn't play and experience through my playthrough.. i also use my other slots as PVP exclusive characters for now but want to try to hit 80 with each race...I enjoy WvW and sPVP and while I think they both need ot be more fleshed out they both provide a much better foundation imho than all the other themeparks out right now

I'm glad you clearly love it but I am not seeing any real viable longer term mechanics there (not saying you are wrong ofc).

Doing the same stuff over again on an alt doesn't seem like a great form of longevity to me personally. Nor does pvp that has zero connect with the game world, when I can get (to my mind) a superior version of it in dedicated pvp games.

For me some mechanics which promote longevtiy (outside of gear/score grinds) in an mmo would be:

(I) Direct investment and engagement with the game world on a persistent basis. Putting down buildings, controlling territories.

(II) Dynamic content within the game world, i.e. player driven mechanisms meaning that when I log in, the political, territorial and physical landscape of the game world might be different from when I last logged in and may stay that way unless I, or others do something about it.

(III) A close knit player community. Knowing your friends and enemies on the server, not just the people in your guild and treating most others like ships that pass in the night.

Those three can be achieved via a variety of mechanics, but instead we see rinse and repeat content and accessibilty pushed as the prime gameplay features.

Originally posted by aesperus

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by aesperus

To some degree yes.

However, times are VERY different now. The mentallity most players had back then, is much different from the ones we have now. In the 'golden days' of MMOs, people were more interested in exploring this new form of gaming. It was more social, but it wasn't always due to game design. It was because things were still new, and players were much more willing to work together trying to figure out this new type of game. It was still a fronteir to explore. Games were also a lot more simple back then. They didn't have as many features, as big of a world, combat was generally fairly simple as well, inspite having a large skillset.

People now expect WAY more from an MMO than what we had back then. The shining example of sandbox atm, is still Eve. It's the only sandbox MMO still going strong. Yet it still doesn't have the same numbers as most of the themeparks. Just being a sandbox isn't going to be enough. Even if we were to bring back UO with modern graphics, I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't enough for most players.

Wait what? Eve has more than 350.000 subs and have been over 300.000 for years. There are only two sub-based MMOs which can best that and that is WoW and Aion and the latter one is F2P hybrid. All other ThemeParks have dwindling subs. such as TERA, Secret World, WAR, AoC, DCU and even SW:TOR has drastically lost subs and is headed for F2P.

If anything Eve shows that there is a demand for sandbox games and not like ThemeParks where they only stay for a few months but rather years. Ofcourse that does not mean a UO copy would be automatically a success, games have evolved since then and ofcourse sandbox MMOs need to also evolve. And imo it is the future of MMO', ThemeParks will soon all go the F2P route and it will only be sandbox MMO's which can provide the reason to sub to an MMO because they will have longetivity, ThemeParks do not.

Correct. ~350k subs.

Again, 350k subs for the current 'shining example' of sandbox MMOs. This is the most successful game you can point to when referencing a sandbox atm.

As for games that can best that, if you limit it to current subscription models. You have WoW, and Aion, yes. While it's hard to know which numbers to trust, SWTOR also seems to meet that mark (though barely). If you expand your themeparks out of 'sub only' models, you will also find yet more games that meet that population marker.

However, if you were to look within the 'true sandbox' category of MMO. What's the next highest sandbox MMO's population?

Not for nothing but your whole preseption on the subject is warped at best. as much as i would like to point out to you why, Its been done 100 times before in a 100 other threads.

Just fyi... 350k subs for a sandbox game that old should be all the info you need.

Originally posted by grimal

Finding GW2 boring after 1.5 months !=  MMO burnout.

 

of course not but seeing the same people play every single themepark and getting bored after a month to me is themepark burnout.. i too crave a good sandbox hybrid but still find GW2 the best themepark out there

Originally posted by xAPOCx

Not for nothing but your whole preseption on the subject is warped at best. as much as i would like to point out to you why, Its been done 100 times before in a 100 other threads.

Just fyi... 350k subs for a sandbox game that old should be all the info you need.

So.. 350k subs for a sandbox game that old is all the info we need. But 9million for a themepark game even older is irrelevant.

Got it, guess I really do have a warped sense of perspective.

I probably shouldn't bring up some of the other themeparks that have also been out for a while (though not quite as long as Eve). If you look at some of the graphs (like MMOData) you may notice a trend. There are no sandboxes over 1mil subs. There is only 1 sandbox over 150k subs, and all other sandboxes charted fall below that mark.

(correction, there is 1 sandbox that surprasses Eve (but not that 1mil mark). Second Life)

It's not just you, welcome to the club. It's a club that's growing rapidly and if devs don't take notice they'll be out of jobs soon enough.

You can only go so many rounds in the Skinner Box before you realize you've already done that before. 

Originally posted by aesperus

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by aesperus

 

Correct. ~350k subs.

Again, 350k subs for the current 'shining example' of sandbox MMOs. This is the most successful game you can point to when referencing a sandbox atm.

As for games that can best that, if you limit it to current subscription models. You have WoW, and Aion, yes. While it's hard to know which numbers to trust, SWTOR also seems to meet that mark (though barely). If you expand your themeparks out of 'sub only' models, you will also find yet more games that meet that population marker.

However, if you were to look within the 'true sandbox' category of MMO. What's the next highest sandbox MMO's population?

I'm not entirely sure how relevant popularity is to the longevity premise this thread is built upon.

You can have casual gamers galore buying mmos and then dropping them a month later for the next shiny on the market. Not sure how that then impacts upon the argument that sandbox style systems offer mechanics which are better suited to promote longevity.

If someone came along and built a top quality sandbox game you could probably bet your ass that it would get nowhere near WoW numbers. But you could also stake your house on the fact that that sandbox would still be there, with a large player retention rate, whilst countless themeparks have come and gone in the mean time.

Whats is the population marker btw? As long as a game has enough subs to fund the game and for the game world to be populous enough that the games systems work optimally, then surely that is the "marker", not some arbitrary figure that allows you to say "haha my games got 100k more subs than yours!".

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by grimal

Finding GW2 boring after 1.5 months !=  MMO burnout.

 

of course not but seeing the same people play every single themepark and getting bored after a month to me is themepark burnout.. i too crave a good sandbox hybrid but still find GW2 the best themepark out there

this is true. have to keep in mide that were talking about theamparks. and the best one out is gw2. followed by rift. just my opinion mind you =)

This is the problem with all the themeparks lately. A couple of months in and you get bored. I can understand what OP is feeling right now. I log in for W v W for an hour or two and then log off. PVE side has really disappointed me especially once i reached Cursed Shore.

But i got my money's worth out of GW2.

Originally posted by xAPOCx

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by grimal

Finding GW2 boring after 1.5 months !=  MMO burnout.

 

of course not but seeing the same people play every single themepark and getting bored after a month to me is themepark burnout.. i too crave a good sandbox hybrid but still find GW2 the best themepark out there

this is true. have to keep in mide that were talking about theamparks. and the best one out is gw2. followed by rift. just my opinion mind you =)

which shares mine:) find Rift the best p2p themepark out their but find GW2 a better game for me:)

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by grimal

Finding GW2 boring after 1.5 months !=  MMO burnout.

 

of course not but seeing the same people play every single themepark and getting bored after a month to me is themepark burnout.. i too crave a good sandbox hybrid but still find GW2 the best themepark out there

Completely agree Aer. Been here long enough to see so many of them do this very same thing, like mobs of farmers with pitchforks and torches chasing the "monster game" that's trying to take away their fun in their gaming life. It's the in thing to do now. 

I came here not 40 minutes ago, and boy did this one post by badspock bring out the trolls. Holy crimminy. There was 1 page his post for like 5 minute and then 30 minutes later BAM 7 pages of people going..."I want all the terrible things the other games forced on us for years as the only means of progression!" and "I want the horrible combat styles of the older games that caused us all to be pressing just three buttons while standing still" Seriously this is what people want?

Then tell me this, if that was REALLY the case, if people REALLY wanted the crappy old school gear treadmill stuff then why is it that every major WoW/EQ raid only lobby game (minus Rift)  has failed in the past few years? Anyone?.....  didn't think so. So please, at least have the decency to be as honest as our good friend Badspock here. He admitted that it could be the themepark burnout and not the game. 

Originally posted by aesperus

Originally posted by xAPOCx

Not for nothing but your whole preseption on the subject is warped at best. as much as i would like to point out to you why, Its been done 100 times before in a 100 other threads.

Just fyi... 350k subs for a sandbox game that old should be all the info you need.

So.. 350k subs for a sandbox game that old is all the info we need. But 9million for a themepark game even older is irrelevant.

Got it, guess I really do have a warped sense of perspective.

I probably shouldn't bring up some of the other themeparks that have also been out for a while (though not quite as long as Eve). If you look at some of the graphs (like MMOData) you may notice a trend. There are no sandboxes over 1mil subs. There is only 1 sandbox over 150k subs, and all other sandboxes charted fall below that mark.

(correction, there is 1 sandbox that surprasses Eve (but not that 1mil mark). Second Life)

is the 9 mil refering to wow?

reason i ask is because eve came out a full year and a half before wow.

Your trying to compare 1960 us car sales in the US to 2012 foreign car sales in the US.  Back in the 60s American made cares were everyhwere. in 2012 i could throw a rock in a parking lot and be lucky to hit one.

But well see in the coming years where to quality of MMO gaming will lay. With the current crop of hybrids and sandboxes on the horizon only time will tell.

But for me Theams dont do anything for me in terms of depth or longevity.

To me BadSpock's OP boils down to a lack of "meaningful" progression.

Of course, what gives a game meaning differs between players, so of course GW2 is received differently.

I know myself, the power progression must never stop, or I will lose interest.

I knew GW2 did its best to completely remove not only power progression but even competition between players outside of a few controlled avenues.

This is not for me.

I prefer a title like EVE where wealth translates to power, more skill training translates to power (esp in terms of versatility) and the progression really never ends.

I like struggling against the gankers, the scammers, the power players, the just plain downright nasty, by teaming up with like minded players and taking on the universe.

Even as I approach my 4th year in game, I realize there's so much more I can still do toward my goals, and I'm really glad I have one title out there to satisfy my play style.

ANET did its best to "tame" MMORPG's and remove as much pain as possible.

I find I enjoy the pain. 

Originally posted by itgrowls

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by grimal
 

 

Completely agree Aer. Been here long enough to see so many of them do this very same thing, like mobs of farmers with pitchforks and torches chasing the "monster game" that's trying to take away their fun in their gaming life. It's the in thing to do now. 

I came here not 40 minutes ago, and boy did this one post by badspock bring out the trolls. Holy crimminy. There was 1 page his post for like 5 minute and then 30 minutes later BAM 7 pages of people going..."I want all the terrible things the other games forced on us for years as the only means of progression!" and "I want the horrible combat styles of the older games that caused us all to be pressing just three buttons while standing still" Seriously this is what people want?

Then tell me this, if that was REALLY the case, if people REALLY wanted the crappy old school gear treadmill stuff then why is it that every major WoW/EQ raid only lobby game (minus Rift)  has failed in the past few years? Anyone?.....  didn't think so. So please, at least have the decency to be as honest as our good friend Badspock here. He admitted that it could be the themepark burnout and not the game. 

Not sure if serious.

Originally posted by itgrowls

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by grimal

Finding GW2 boring after 1.5 months !=  MMO burnout.

 

of course not but seeing the same people play every single themepark and getting bored after a month to me is themepark burnout.. i too crave a good sandbox hybrid but still find GW2 the best themepark out there

Completely agree Aer. Been here long enough to see so many of them do this very same thing, like mobs of farmers with pitchforks and torches chasing the "monster game" that's trying to take away their fun in their gaming life. It's the in thing to do now. 

I came here not 40 minutes ago, and boy did this one post by badspock bring out the trolls. Holy crimminy. There was 1 page his post for like 5 minute and then 30 minutes later BAM 7 pages of people going..."I want all the terrible things the other games forced on us for years as the only means of progression!" and "I want the horrible combat styles of the older games that caused us all to be pressing just three buttons while standing still" Seriously this is what people want?

Then tell me this, if that was REALLY the case, if people REALLY wanted the crappy old school gear treadmill stuff then why is it that every major WoW/EQ raid only lobby game (minus Rift)  has failed in the past few years? Anyone?.....  didn't think so. So please, at least have the decency to be as honest as our good friend Badspock here. He admitted that it could be the themepark burnout and not the game. 

Well when you make such exaggerated claims it sucks all the fun out of discussion. But then this is MMORPG.COM. People have so many versions of word 'failure'.

Also it would be foolish to claim that all these MMOS failed because of gear treadmill because if it was true Rift would be a failure too (intrestingly you decided to leave it out) which alones contradict your point.

A game fails because a lot of factors and not just because of gear treadmill. You guys focus on gear grind a little too much as if that is the only reason for the failures of recent MMOS.