Originally posted by Wizardry

I'll start by saying i love pvp,i played a ton of quake/Unreal/Cod.

However in a rpg permadeath isa really bad idea.First of all the original Wizardry,if your player/s died,you could not use them but they could be resurrected by another group of players you made.

I would accept that in that you could be resurrected,however even under those circumstances,the choice of who and what you fought was YOUR choice.In an open pvp game,the so called adrenaline rush is almsot non existant because more times than not,the fight is NOT fair,so you have no comabt,no excitement,you might as well have an auto button that says "kill me",because the outcome is obvious.

If a glowing red-eyed monster with a giant axe is running down the hall at me, I don't care if it's PC or NPC, I'm running. There is absolutely no difference between a roaming mob and a PK other than, in some cases, the PK is smarter.

Part of the problem is that mobs in most MMOs suck. They spawn on their X, stand around waiting to get killed and have what seems like no more than the most basic AI possible. For TEN YEARS that has been the predominant mob experience. I can't really elaborate on the mobs or other aspects of the Wizardry Online dungeons, however I can say that the game is designed so you are constantly on your toes. Something somewhere is always looking to kill you, and sometimes the best option in a situation is run your ass to safety, and no I'm not just talking about PKs.

To your points on death, recovery and the original Wizardry... I think you might like WO. :)

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Part of the problem is that mobs in most MMOs suck. They spawn on their X, stand around waiting to get killed and have what seems like no more than the most basic AI possible. For TEN YEARS that has been the predominant mob experience.

Its been a lot longer than 10 years, 1997 Ultima Online, read about it!

I don't see how WO addresses any of this.  Its exactly that same model.  Even worse really in that even bosses are restricted to their spawn unlike many games that have roving bosses and incidentals that are completely random.

As to "Wizardry"'s post, wtf does FPS have to do with Permadeath?  PVP comes in the form of RPGs too, try the Original Darkfall, for instance.  Or even Rakion.  Those are PVP mmos.  FPS shooters might be call PVP, but with an eyeball and a gun, what else are you going to do but kill things?  Maybe you meant you like competition some times?

Anyway.

How hard is it to wrap our brains around the idea that you might lose your toon, but the majority of progress and all the really important stuff is at the account level?  Its not rocket science, you have characters that are your extention and they can be made rather easily, regardless of level if your grow at the account level is high enough.  I bet 10 minutes after I post this, the next guy will be in here crying about his potential losses and how unfair it will be... not conceiving of any of this aspect of WO.

Originally posted by Psyentist

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Part of the problem is that mobs in most MMOs suck. They spawn on their X, stand around waiting to get killed and have what seems like no more than the most basic AI possible. For TEN YEARS that has been the predominant mob experience.

Its been a lot longer than 10 years, 1997 Ultima Online, read about it!

I'm very familiar with UO. I was being kind with the number of years. :)

I don't see how WO addresses any of this.  Its exactly that same model.  Even worse really in that even bosses are restricted to their spawn unlike many games that have roving bosses and incidentals that are completely random.

I was addressing his distinction between getting killed by a mob and a player in PVP. The glowing red-eyed monster in Wizardry is a PK.

Originally posted by Vunak23

This just in!

The carebear crowd is appalled that one game wasn't made with them in mind!

This is gold.

Originally posted by asmadeous

Originally posted by Vunak23

This just in!

The carebear crowd is appalled that one game wasn't made with them in mind!

This is gold.

Indeed.  If one doesn't like it, don't play it. 

I have just finished my second day of playing this game. I find it have a weird and inviting appeal to it. I usually get bored quickly of MMOs because they are so predictable and i feel like it's just doing the same thing over and over again. This game offers me a challenge. I know i can't rush forward for no reason, i usually tend to avoid fights if i can help it and stick with my quest and most of the time, quests alone are good enough for you to level. They are well calculated.

I died over 10 times now. Today, i feared for my character and im level 6. Each time i have to head back toward that statue to revive, i get anxious and worry. I get this real feeling of frustation and don't tell myself: "Oh well.. ill just head back after." I ask myself... "Will i be able to get back?" Once there, i have a stiff 91% chance of reviving. IT seems nothing, but when your character is on the line, even those 9% chance is scary... because what if? I am geniunly doing my best not to die. I use my head and gouge my opponent. This game force me to do that, it give me the impression that each fight is worth something and that i have to work for each of them. I have to concentrate and not simply watch a video while i click and cast the same spells over and over again.

What make this game good with permadeath, is that it is complemented by other factors. The game is built around challange. The fact that your life and mana dont regen automatically. The scarse amount of loot, gold teamed with the expensive price for potions and healing items. The amount of damage the enemy make and their ferocity. They use skills, they are unpredictable and they can suprise you. Thjey will gang on you, they will block, they will dodge. Traps are deadly, sometimes hard to see. Its a combination of all those factors that make it a good and hard game. It is not a casual game. It's made for those who are bored of the doing the same thing over and over again, of sure victories. You can hardly solo bosses in this game. Only rogues have some chances because they can be stealth and that would take a long, long time.

Permadeath is well implemented, if you can sacrifice some gears you will not get your character taken. Just dont die too often and think carefully and you will not loose it. Be reckless, solo everything and be impatient. And well... there goes it. The reward is not in the loot, but in the genuine feelings you get for what you have and what you can loose. A feeling that you hardly get in videogames. It can be unforgiving, but this is what make this game so good.

Originally posted by AdamTM

Originally posted by neosapience
Permadeath sounds like an interesting idea on paper. Hardcore players want that adrenaline rush that comes with the fear of loss. However, not everyone feels that way, as there are practical problems with permadeath.

For starters, most people are aware that in an online game you will experience connection issues. Nobody wants to lose 100's of hours of work to lag or a disconnect. There is no real way to prevent players from experiencing these issues and, given enough time, you will eventually lose your character to them.

Then there's the issue of risk VS. reward. Many people will 'play it safe' and simply grind lower level encounters to prevent untimely deaths. This causes the game to become really boring and people end up quitting. To prevent this, you have to reward people appropriately. This however, is almost impossible, as you have to make any single encounter worth as much as every single previous encounter combined.

You may think that's a bit unfair, and I agree, to an extent. While people enjoy playing video games, without any sort of progression, the game becomes little more than a fantasy FPS; die, respawn, die, respawn... etc. Progression means work, and people will tire of working for the same things over and over again, especially if the reward for success is little more than their previous encounter.

I think people are just tired of zero or near-zero death penalties in MMO's. That doesn't mean the solution is to implement its polar opposite, as that will cause just as many problems for most players.

The "perma" in permadeath in WO is greatly exeggerated. You have two chances at a revive and a percentage chance of survival in accordance to your soul-level and items you sacrifice.

But nevermind that, its just a quick correction.

 

The problem is, you (and many others) see WO as a "traditional" MMORPG or RPG.

However, its a MMORoguelike (like Realm Of The Mad God, also permadeath, but far more fast-paced).

Its blending RPG elements with roguelike mechanics, which isn't surprising, since the oldskool RPG games like the Gold Box games did exactly that.

Roguelikes live and die by permadeath mechanics, its their essence, their core. Its where the fun comes from for the people that play them. Its the no-win dick-moves the game pulls on you (instadeath traps, vastly overleveled mobs, etc) that make the game fun.

Roguelikes need a different mindset to play than RPGs. You have to abandon your feelings of character progression and the gratification it evokes. Roguelikes are about beating the -game-, overcomming it, not having an amazing character.

Its about crafting a unique and amazing adventure and narrative of your character, not instant gratification for success.

Its why I play FTL, NeoScavenger and DoD.

I even feel that WO made it too much newskool with their percentage survival mechanics, but its still a better and fairer system that I saw from other hybrids.

tldr: Disconnects are part of the roguelike mindset and just another random dick move the game can pull on you, deal with it.

 

I was about to make a post where I wanted people to convince me about the virtues of perma-death. But your post just did that, I see the point and I'll be trying WO. Nice one