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Wizardry Online

Wizardry Online 

General Discussion  » Why permadeath can't work.

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108 posts found
  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12240

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Project Gorgon, and Combat Arms

11/04/12 5:54:22 PM#81
Originally posted by SlickShoes

Hi. I don't give a crap about the NDA I agreed to.

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

11/04/12 6:09:02 PM#82
Originally posted by corpusc

wow.  do i really need to explain this.   8)

no but there is no reason one should expect DF to add a PVE server in the same sense there is no reason Wizardry should have a no permadeath server in the same sense GW2 should not have a PVP server..

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  SlickShoes

Novice Member

Joined: 3/01/06
Posts: 1040

11/04/12 6:27:01 PM#83
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by SlickShoes

Hi. I don't give a crap about the NDA I agreed to.

 

I am sure SOE are trawling these forums, then trying to match my account here to one with them and then banning my account.

I haven't given a crap about SOE since they ruined 2 of my favourite games, I am sure they don't give a crap about me.

 

  corpusc

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1378

CHATTANOOGAN

contact me if you are seriously interested in
* C#
* making an old schoolish FPS

11/04/12 7:06:45 PM#84
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by corpusc

wow.  do i really need to explain this.   8)

no but there is no reason one should expect DF to add a PVE server in the same sense there is no reason Wizardry should have a no permadeath server in the same sense GW2 should not have a PVP server..

 

reasons seem to be lost on you.  8)

 

 

The End
---------------------------
i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

  AdamTM

Novice Member

Joined: 5/05/05
Posts: 1395

I'M PUNCHING YOUR SALAD!!!!

11/05/12 10:16:53 PM#85
Originally posted by SlickShoes

This game will be an acquired taste for sure, not just because of the death mechanics. I have been playing the beta today and it looks very dated, the character movement is horrible and the animations are very poor, the quest dialog is drier than the sahara.

Hopefully there is a LONG closed beta phase before this game is out.

I dont put too much stock into animations and visuals as long as the gameplay offers the engagement im looking for.

Does WO do that? For me, yes.

Would I like it to look like Dark Souls? Fuck yes, but lets be realistic here... thats not gonna happen.

 

I can ignore certain flaws if the rest makes up for it, and by celestias beard does it make up for it.

  Talemire

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/01/06
Posts: 753

Jesus is Lord.

11/06/12 2:55:42 PM#86

True, ok, I can jive with a lot of the comments made since my own, but how about this idea: We all participate in permadeath regardless of server choice, but instead of having your character deleted when you die, get transferred to a world only accessable by the fallen and become able to continue playing the game with "your story" to tell other fallen players, and still be able to keep tabs on who the last man standing is in the main world. Ideas?

This way, all the rules and sense of urgency remain, but only in your initial fight to stay alive. Maybe theme the other world/server/what have you, "The world of the fallen" or something. Just a few more pennies to throw at the idea. I'm not doggin it at all, I'd give permadeath a shot, no doubt, but there has to be some sort of backdrop when you die instead of deletion. Also, you and your old "running partner" can share experiences on the fallen side, rather than a whole new chooseable server.

I think the issue lies in the word "permadeath" itself. Permadeath doesn't have to literally mean permanent death as much as it describes a "mode" or "ruleset" of play. It's just a word that we've adopted to be able to describe a concept that doesn't necessarily have to be in stone.

------------------------------
MMORPGs are great to look forward to after a hard day of work, but heaven is the ultimate reward for those who live Christ-like.

  wrightstuf

Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/09
Posts: 714

11/08/12 6:51:09 PM#87
Originally posted by SlickShoes
Originally posted by neosapience
Permadeath sounds like an interesting idea on paper. Hardcore players want that adrenaline rush that comes with the fear of loss. However, not everyone feels that way, as there are practical problems with permadeath.

For starters, most people are aware that in an online game you will experience connection issues. Nobody wants to lose 100's of hours of work to lag or a disconnect. There is no real way to prevent players from experiencing these issues and, given enough time, you will eventually lose your character to them.

Then there's the issue of risk VS. reward. Many people will 'play it safe' and simply grind lower level encounters to prevent untimely deaths. This causes the game to become really boring and people end up quitting. To prevent this, you have to reward people appropriately. This however, is almost impossible, as you have to make any single encounter worth as much as every single previous encounter combined.

You may think that's a bit unfair, and I agree, to an extent. While people enjoy playing video games, without any sort of progression, the game becomes little more than a fantasy FPS; die, respawn, die, respawn... etc. Progression means work, and people will tire of working for the same things over and over again, especially if the reward for success is little more than their previous encounter.

I think people are just tired of zero or near-zero death penalties in MMO's. That doesn't mean the solution is to implement its polar opposite, as that will cause just as many problems for most players.

Underlined and Italics.

If you feel that way then why bother even trying to play a permadeath game? There are many games that don't have this feature available. This game is designed to have permadeath, it doesn't care how you feel about that.

It should care....with the permadeath feature it will weed out all but a hanful of hardcore pvpers that will hang in there for its 2 month tops life span

  Talemire

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/01/06
Posts: 753

Jesus is Lord.

11/09/12 11:12:38 AM#88
I like this thread, gonna have to give it a bump.

------------------------------
MMORPGs are great to look forward to after a hard day of work, but heaven is the ultimate reward for those who live Christ-like.

  BigCountry

Novice Member

Joined: 5/31/05
Posts: 480

11/13/12 8:40:00 AM#89

The permadeath is part of Wizardry. :D

More mmos need it. :D

You have to be careful. This game is hardcore like it was in the 80s and 90s

:D

Risk vs Reward

BigCountry | Head Hunters | www.wefarmpeople.com

  Boraell

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/17/06
Posts: 83

11/19/12 11:28:52 AM#90
Been playing over the weekend and it does have some intresting concepts and will appeal to some people but it is very much a niche game. For me personally I wont be playing when released, not because of the 'cashdeath' (higher chance of permadeath the higher soul level you are, unless you use cash) itsself but because you are forced into going everywhere in a group unless you want ganking by the prick twice your level (granted its only beta so people care even less but criminal status doesnt punish enough).
  BigCountry

Novice Member

Joined: 5/31/05
Posts: 480

11/20/12 12:21:54 PM#91
Originally posted by Boraell
Been playing over the weekend and it does have some intresting concepts and will appeal to some people but it is very much a niche game. For me personally I wont be playing when released, not because of the 'cashdeath' (higher chance of permadeath the higher soul level you are, unless you use cash) itsself but because you are forced into going everywhere in a group unless you want ganking by the prick twice your level (granted its only beta so people care even less but criminal status doesnt punish enough).

 

pks are out and about because there are "throw away" chars for beta. noone cares about their criminal status/timers with a beta. on release people will not be pkn on low level toons I would think, not unless they just dont' care for progressing that character any further.

 

and the group gameplay is part of the PvE also. heck its a necessity of you ask me. past level 8 you will need to be in groups to progress the dungeons (they get hardcore as crap!!!!)

 

BigCountry | Head Hunters | www.wefarmpeople.com

  skeaser

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/13/07
Posts: 3689

Don't die mad, just die.

11/22/12 4:44:44 AM#92
I don't see why something like WO's perma-death with a ghost chance to get your corpse couldn't work. Demon Souls and Dark Souls has shown that there's a VERY viable playerbase for people who want challenge and punishment.


A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.
-Friedrich Nietzsche

  Psyentist

Novice Member

Joined: 10/19/12
Posts: 49

11/25/12 4:48:57 AM#93

After a week of playing in the CB, I can assure the Permadeath opponents that WO is not permadeath in the way most people are implying in this thread.  I dont know how much I am at liberty to say at this juncture, but be assured, this argument is more a philosophical one for future titles than an actual issue with this title.  

While permadeath is a possibility for your characters, the actual schema of the account/character relationship is different than in most mmos making the vast majority of the arguments here moot.  You can take risks with resurrection and the worst case scenario is permadeath resulting from various degrees of death in line with the Wizardry folklore.  Edit:  Its really no different than people who break items crafting, some of us have devastating losses because of the gamble, but anyone can avoid those risks altogether and play just fine.

  Psyentist

Novice Member

Joined: 10/19/12
Posts: 49

11/25/12 5:00:51 AM#94
Originally posted by BigCountry
 on release people will not be pkn on low level toons I would think, not unless they just dont' care for progressing that character any further.

I will be. The rest of my guild wil be too. Frankly, criminal behavior is being set up as a sort of faction system with the criminal town still allowing access to grinding and all emenities of non-PKers.  In terms of progress, there is no problem with going into the normal town, I sneak into the normal area and turn in quests, get keys etc. constantly, there's no real incentive unless you're a priest or someone who can't avoid gaurds.  If someone attacks me in the town, I kill em.  Additionally, taking people's items, even if you didn't kill them and just happen upon a body, yields ridiculous amounts of gold, loot, and even quest items, but if you're a goody goody you get no bonuses other than being lackadaisical in the towns.  And its not like its hard to get drops, everything drops loot and most of it is junk.  Expect me to be on the wanted board day one.

  IfrianMMO

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/21/12
Posts: 212

11/25/12 5:06:14 AM#95
Attempting to change a game that offers mechanics you dislike into something you want instead of either adapting to it or searching for a game that caters to your gamer type should ban you from the internet for half a year.

  Arcondo87

Novice Member

Joined: 11/02/12
Posts: 99

11/25/12 5:16:27 AM#96
Originally posted by SlickShoes
Originally posted by neosapience
Permadeath sounds like an interesting idea on paper. Hardcore players want that adrenaline rush that comes with the fear of loss. However, not everyone feels that way, as there are practical problems with permadeath.

For starters, most people are aware that in an online game you will experience connection issues. Nobody wants to lose 100's of hours of work to lag or a disconnect. There is no real way to prevent players from experiencing these issues and, given enough time, you will eventually lose your character to them.

Then there's the issue of risk VS. reward. Many people will 'play it safe' and simply grind lower level encounters to prevent untimely deaths. This causes the game to become really boring and people end up quitting. To prevent this, you have to reward people appropriately. This however, is almost impossible, as you have to make any single encounter worth as much as every single previous encounter combined.

You may think that's a bit unfair, and I agree, to an extent. While people enjoy playing video games, without any sort of progression, the game becomes little more than a fantasy FPS; die, respawn, die, respawn... etc. Progression means work, and people will tire of working for the same things over and over again, especially if the reward for success is little more than their previous encounter.

I think people are just tired of zero or near-zero death penalties in MMO's. That doesn't mean the solution is to implement its polar opposite, as that will cause just as many problems for most players.

Underlined and Italics.

If you feel that way then why bother even trying to play a permadeath game? There are many games that don't have this feature available. This game is designed to have permadeath, it doesn't care how you feel about that.

^ this...if you cant handel losing your stuff and all your hard work...easy sulution is dont play it. This type of game isnt for you.  What game is? WoW, Rift, GW2, SWTOR....ppl that dislike permadeth and generally thempark players.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12240

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Project Gorgon, and Combat Arms

11/25/12 5:41:18 AM#97
Originally posted by AdamTM

The "perma" in permadeath in WO is greatly exeggerated. You have two chances at a revive and a percentage chance of survival in accordance to your soul-level and items you sacrifice.

But nevermind that, its just a quick correction.

 

The problem is, you (and many others) see WO as a "traditional" MMORPG or RPG.

However, its a MMORoguelike (like Realm Of The Mad God, also permadeath, but far more fast-paced).

Its blending RPG elements with roguelike mechanics, which isn't surprising, since the oldskool RPG games like the Gold Box games did exactly that.

Roguelikes live and die by permadeath mechanics, its their essence, their core. Its where the fun comes from for the people that play them. Its the no-win dick-moves the game pulls on you (instadeath traps, vastly overleveled mobs, etc) that make the game fun.

Roguelikes need a different mindset to play than RPGs. You have to abandon your feelings of character progression and the gratification it evokes. Roguelikes are about beating the -game-, overcomming it, not having an amazing character.

Its about crafting a unique and amazing adventure and narrative of your character, not instant gratification for success.

Its why I play FTL, NeoScavenger and DoD.

I even feel that WO made it too much newskool with their percentage survival mechanics, but its still a better and fairer system that I saw from other hybrids.

tldr: Disconnects are part of the roguelike mindset and just another random dick move the game can pull on you, deal with it.

Excellent post. The game really does go back to CRPG roots and bring them into a 3D massively multiplayer environment. Lookng forward to when I can say more. :)

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  theAsna

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/16/09
Posts: 303

11/25/12 5:43:13 AM#98
Originally posted by neosapience
Permadeath sounds like an interesting idea on paper. Hardcore players want that adrenaline rush that comes with the fear of loss. However, not everyone feels that way, as there are practical problems with permadeath.

For starters, most people are aware that in an online game you will experience connection issues. Nobody wants to lose 100's of hours of work to lag or a disconnect. There is no real way to prevent players from experiencing these issues and, given enough time, you will eventually lose your character to them.

Then there's the issue of risk VS. reward. Many people will 'play it safe' and simply grind lower level encounters to prevent untimely deaths. This causes the game to become really boring and people end up quitting. To prevent this, you have to reward people appropriately. This however, is almost impossible, as you have to make any single encounter worth as much as every single previous encounter combined.

You may think that's a bit unfair, and I agree, to an extent. While people enjoy playing video games, without any sort of progression, the game becomes little more than a fantasy FPS; die, respawn, die, respawn... etc. Progression means work, and people will tire of working for the same things over and over again, especially if the reward for success is little more than their previous encounter.

I think people are just tired of zero or near-zero death penalties in MMO's. That doesn't mean the solution is to implement its polar opposite, as that will cause just as many problems for most players.

 

You have to see a permadeath mechanic within the context of the game's combat, resting/exhaustion mechanics and AI of computer controlled opponents.

 

 

If you take the AI of opponents in your generic MMO you'll most often find some aggro mechanics implemented. Thus the opponents' reactions get really predicatble. In such an environment it is really safe to farm low level content. But let's be honest, even without permadeath players are farming "low level content". Just take the raiders/farmers. They repeatedly visit the same content until they have collected some equipment set. With each repetition they get slowly better and better equipped. A different approach to opponent's AI will make things more unpredictable and could even lead to lower level content to have some dramatic moments.

 

The game mechanics of most generic MMOs by default invalidate lower level content. How far do you get these days? Level 50? Level 70? Level 80? Even a 5 level difference in levels gives a noticeable boost. On top of that the equipment adds its own weight to that. Let's say it as bluntly as it is: some players want rewards and these should be handed out more often.  This has led to the game mechanics we have today. Take SWTOR as example. Do a low level Flashpoint when you are 10 levels higher. I tried it with a tank build. Opponents will have a hard time harming you (miss you most of the time).

 

If the game mechanics allow in-combat regeneration this helps in farming content. You don't need to sit down after an encounter, instead you can go on and pull the next group. The same applies for abilities with cooldowns. Players will simply time their abilities accordingly then. On the other hand if you cannot regain your abilities that easily after combat/during combat (e.g. being forced to rest) then players will use abilities more carefully and even be more careful with pulling large crowds of opponents.

 

Encounters and the game world will have to be designed in a very different way. As it is now quest areas are plastered with opponent groups. The density depends on how many players the company expects (players shouldn't  wait too long for respawns). The drawback of such an approach is that if the area is deserted it's really annoying, even to the point where retreat is not that easy.

 

Class design. Let's be honest. Most MMOs have a set of predefined archetypes. In order for those archetypes to be distinguishable they all have different abilities and restrictions (e.g. equipment restrictions). If you prefer a stealthy gameplay then you are forced to take a certain archetype. It's not start with a character and mold it to fit to your playstyle, instead it's choose your class first and stick with that or reroll.

 

Permadeath require players to adapt to a different playstyle. How is it today? You just run up to the opponent and if you win you win. If you lose you revive your character nearby and try again. With permadeath you'll have to decide a lot earlier if you can make it alive or not. If you want to see if you can defeat a strong opponent you'll have to test your opponent's strength first. Go up to him. See how hard the opponent hits. Retreat in time. Don't go there alone. Sooner or later players will come up with some fitting strategy. Melees will of course need to take care and retreat from melee if they are too badly injured., etc.

 

PvP is a different story. But how is PvP today? More often it's charge, get killed, respawn, charge in again. If you think this is meaningful PvP then please enjoy it. That's what you see most often in PUGs/quick matches. Let's be honest. In today's games if there were no rewards for PvP then only the diehard PvPers would participate there. And PvP would have a different quality.

 

 

Permadeath on its own is just a nuisance. The whole philosophy of a game must fit the challenge idea. Permadeath is not really required as feature, instead some form of death penalty or no instant reviving would do the same trick. And it can only work if the community welcomes new players. If players help each other. Etc.

  User Deleted
11/25/12 8:30:21 AM#99
Originally posted by corpusc
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by corpusc

wow.  do i really need to explain this.   8)

no but there is no reason one should expect DF to add a PVE server in the same sense there is no reason Wizardry should have a no permadeath server in the same sense GW2 should not have a PVP server..

 

reasons seem to be lost on you.  8)

 

 

I've yet to see one valid reason put forward as to why games should fundamentally alter their core mechanics in order to appeal to audiences they were never aiming at in the first place.

  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6732

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

11/25/12 8:36:43 AM#100

I'll start by saying i love pvp,i played a ton of quake/Unreal/Cod.

However in a rpg permadeath isa really bad idea.First of all the original Wizardry,if your player/s died,you could not use them but they could be resurrected by another group of players you made.

I would accept that in that you could be resurrected,however even under those circumstances,the choice of who and what you fought was YOUR choice.In an open pvp game,the so called adrenaline rush is almsot non existant because more times than not,the fight is NOT fair,so you have no comabt,no excitement,you might as well have an auto button that says "kill me",because the outcome is obvious.

In Unreal Tournment for example,even yoru latency was not a guarantee of death,at least not until you got to feel the skill level of your opponent..The point is aside fro mlatency,it was ALWAYS a level playing field,so the adrenaline rush was always there in every fight.

In RPG's it is really simple,you need rules and restrictions,you cannot treat it like a level playing field because it is not.

 

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