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Wizardry Online

Wizardry Online 

General Discussion  » Why permadeath can't work.

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108 posts found
  Robokapp

Elite Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4509

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

11/03/12 3:50:28 PM#61

of course, being mainstream, there's another 200 gaming companies going after the same consumers you're going after...

 

if you can find a loyal fanbase, mainstream or niche, you're going to do well in today's mainstream industry. If you aim where everyone else is...there'll be a lot of dead companies who couldn't keep up in terms of "fun per dollar".

 

permadeath automatically puts you into tat (fictive) 2%. Now the question comes, is everything else in the game good enough to attract these 2% ?

 

permadeath alone means nothing. EVE does it. it's not eve's #1 selling point.

  Yamota

Elite Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6497

"Only cunts name their swords" -The Hound

11/03/12 3:50:54 PM#62
Originally posted by defector1968

permadeath good or not

one thing is sure

only 2% of game force like it, so companies dont bother with it

  3-4thElf

Elite Member

Joined: 6/03/12
Posts: 474

11/03/12 3:51:32 PM#63
Originally posted by defector1968

permadeath good or not

one thing is sure

only 2% of game force like it, so companies dont bother with it

More than 2% of the gaming force has played Super Mario Bros. 1 and was more than happy to start over at 1-1 when they couldn't make their jumps in 8-2.

People think they can whine their way into winning now and I'm glad to see MMOs take a stand against the cry babies.

a yo ho ho

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

11/03/12 3:52:20 PM#64
Originally posted by Robokapp

of course, being mainstream, there's another 200 gaming companies going after the same consumers you're going after...

 

if you can find a loyal fanbase, mainstream or niche, you're going to do well in today's mainstream industry. If you aim where everyone else is...there'll be a lot of dead companies who couldn't keep up in terms of "fun per dollar".

^ also not sure but seems many haven't watched the dev talk about this subject and just assume in this game when you die you character and all progression is gone which is not true at all

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  GN-003

Novice Member

Joined: 10/22/10
Posts: 78

11/03/12 3:53:22 PM#65
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by neosapience
Permadeath sounds like an interesting idea on paper. Hardcore players want that adrenaline rush that comes with the fear of loss. However, not everyone feels that way, as there are practical problems with permadeath.

Which is why people should realise that not every game is aimed at every gamer. If a specific crowd enjoy permadeath, then they play permadeath games. If people don't, well they don't.

Nailed it.

 

Originally posted by Jakdstripper
i really dont understand why people would want the game it'self to foce permadeath on them. do you really want permadeath? go play any game you want and delete your character every time you die.....there, you are playing perma death game, fun hu?
You can't understand how some people might find certain gameplay mechanics interesting or entertaining, even though they differ from your personal tastes? That's rather unfortunate. I've seen this sort of attitude all over this place. "I don't like/agree with this style of gameplay, therefore, it shouldn't exist!" What's it to you? If you don't like that style of game, don't play it. Instead, you cough up some snide remark towards those who'd love to have that sort of experience. It's not as if perma-death-esque games oversaturate the current MMO market. Are you anti-choice?
  Karteli

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/09/12
Posts: 2704

11/03/12 5:21:26 PM#66
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by Robokapp

of course, being mainstream, there's another 200 gaming companies going after the same consumers you're going after...

 

if you can find a loyal fanbase, mainstream or niche, you're going to do well in today's mainstream industry. If you aim where everyone else is...there'll be a lot of dead companies who couldn't keep up in terms of "fun per dollar".

^ also not sure but seems many haven't watched the dev talk about this subject and just assume in this game when you die you character and all progression is gone which is not true at all

Then whats the purpose of having permadeath?  I suppose with each death, it will be a tad easier to level back up to the point you were at, if some form of a characters internal or external assets get carried over to their decendants..

 

It seems more of a nuissance to require dead players to continually find new names that haven't been used yet.  Perhaps it's a clever way for people to pay in the cash shop in order to avoid permadeath and retain the original name they really like.

 

Permadeath works well in sp-RPG's for many people because there is a definite beginning and end.  Completing the game gets the player a little bit of bragging rights, and a feeling of acomplishment.

When someone perma-dies in an MMO it often times ends up with a feeling of "Oh hmm ahh .. I don't feel like playing this game anymore."  Which is bad for the developer, because with a game that never ends, it's not if you will ever perma-die .. it's when.  A perma-death after months or even years of hard work amounts to an irrecoverable loss, and also a sudden loss of interest.

 

So enough of the "don't like it, don't play it" comments.  Some will play it - I'll try it.  But I don't think it will have a very big active user base after awhile.

Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11894

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

11/03/12 6:23:30 PM#67
Originally posted by Karteli
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by Robokapp

of course, being mainstream, there's another 200 gaming companies going after the same consumers you're going after...

if you can find a loyal fanbase, mainstream or niche, you're going to do well in today's mainstream industry. If you aim where everyone else is...there'll be a lot of dead companies who couldn't keep up in terms of "fun per dollar".

^ also not sure but seems many haven't watched the dev talk about this subject and just assume in this game when you die you character and all progression is gone which is not true at all

Then whats the purpose of having permadeath? 

It's a different type a challenge. It changes how players approach different obstacles.

I suppose with each death, it will be a tad easier to level back up to the point you were at, if some form of a characters internal or external assets get carried over to their decendants..

 Exactly.

It seems more of a nuissance to require dead players to continually find new names that haven't been used yet.  Perhaps it's a clever way for people to pay in the cash shop in order to avoid permadeath and retain the original name they really like.

 Reuse the same name?

Permadeath works well in sp-RPG's for many people because there is a definite beginning and end.  Completing the game gets the player a little bit of bragging rights, and a feeling of acomplishment.

Much of the game is modeled after the Wizardry CRPGs, so for people unfamiliar with the franchise, it's a new type of challenge. For people familiar with it, it is another faithful carryover from the original game.

When someone perma-dies in an MMO it often times ends up with a feeling of "Oh hmm ahh .. I don't feel like playing this game anymore."  Which is bad for the developer, because with a game that never ends, it's not if you will ever perma-die .. it's when.

What MMOs are you referring to in that statement?

So enough of the "don't like it, don't play it" comments.  Some will play it - I'll try it.  But I don't think it will have a very big active user base after awhile.

Only 34,000 subscribe to Puzzle Pirates. If you don't like it, don't play it. Or is your stance that it doesn't make a difference what the target number of players is for a successful game and healthy player community, if it doesn't meet your arbitrary number, it's not an active playerbase?

 

  AdamTM

Novice Member

Joined: 5/05/05
Posts: 1395

I'M PUNCHING YOUR SALAD!!!!

11/03/12 6:39:15 PM#68
Originally posted by defector1968

only 2% of game force like it, so companies dont bother with it

50% of this sentence is completely made up.

  Robokapp

Elite Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4509

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

11/03/12 6:39:52 PM#69

I think the purpose of permadeath is simply to put more value on life. I'm talking about pvp'ing tactically rather than 'charging in spamming aoe".

 

purpose of permadeath isn't to make you lose progression, it's to make life and death meaningful. In just about anyone's fantasy, life is good, death is bad, you want to stay alive and dont want to die. When the costs of death are a 30sec runback and nothing else, it sort of doesnt matter if you die or not.

 

I mean what's the opposite of perma-death? immortality.

  Torgrim

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 12/15/05
Posts: 2125

11/03/12 6:44:35 PM#70

I bet most people in this thread haven't really played a true permdeath game before.

They just want to belong to that small neice hardcore group.

Besides this game don't have a true permadeath system anyway so the topic is kinda moot so is the selling point of this game.

If it's not broken, you are not innovating.

  Robokapp

Elite Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4509

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

11/03/12 6:48:34 PM#71
is a 'true permadeath' the same as a character wipe or ... can you write us a thesis separating true permadeath and false permadeath ?

  Torgrim

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 12/15/05
Posts: 2125

11/03/12 6:53:28 PM#72
Originally posted by Robokapp
is a 'true permadeath' the same as a character wipe or ... can you write us a thesis separating true permadeath and false permadeath ?

 

True permadeath is as it sounds like you die the toon is gone.

False permadeath is you getting a second chance to revive your toon and can continue playing.

If it's not broken, you are not innovating.

  defector1968

Novice Member

Joined: 6/16/10
Posts: 400

Real Animal lovers are ONLY the vegetarians

11/03/12 6:55:11 PM#73
Originally posted by 3-4thElf
Originally posted by defector1968

permadeath good or not

one thing is sure

only 2% of game force like it, so companies dont bother with it

More than 2% of the gaming force has played Super Mario Bros. 1 and was more than happy to start over at 1-1 when they couldn't make their jumps in 8-2.

People think they can whine their way into winning now and I'm glad to see MMOs take a stand against the cry babies.

man, when a player cant pass a quest, mission, e.t.c. goes to cheat pages or quit the game, no matter how many they play the game. And i assure u that those ppl u say, are lesser than 2%

And look from all the MMOs so far, which have permadeath and which are still have it or are alive. I know only 4 games with permadeath and the MMOs are more than 200 (open & canceled). so do the math.

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

11/03/12 8:00:07 PM#74
Originally posted by defector1968
Originally posted by 3-4thElf
Originally posted by defector1968

permadeath good or not

one thing is sure

only 2% of game force like it, so companies dont bother with it

More than 2% of the gaming force has played Super Mario Bros. 1 and was more than happy to start over at 1-1 when they couldn't make their jumps in 8-2.

People think they can whine their way into winning now and I'm glad to see MMOs take a stand against the cry babies.

man, when a player cant pass a quest, mission, e.t.c. goes to cheat pages or quit the game, no matter how many they play the game. And i assure u that those ppl u say, are lesser than 2%

And look from all the MMOs so far, which have permadeath and which are still have it or are alive. I know only 4 games with permadeath and the MMOs are more than 200 (open & canceled). so do the math.

permadeath works fine for many people in MMOs if there are systems in place that don't make you start from square zero each time like EVE and from the sounds of it this game.. think as long as gameplay is solid it should do decently well

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  SlickShoes

Novice Member

Joined: 3/01/06
Posts: 1040

11/03/12 8:00:41 PM#75

This game will be an acquired taste for sure, not just because of the death mechanics. I have been playing the beta today and it looks very dated, the character movement is horrible and the animations are very poor, the quest dialog is drier than the sahara.

Hopefully there is a LONG closed beta phase before this game is out.

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

11/03/12 8:02:40 PM#76
Originally posted by SlickShoes

This game will be an acquired taste for sure, not just because of the death mechanics. I have been playing the beta today and it looks very dated, the character movement is horrible and the animations are very poor, the quest dialog is drier than the sahara.

Hopefully there is a LONG closed beta phase before this game is out.

that's the sort of stuff that will really kill attention to the game.. hopefully it's still very early beta...

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  SlickShoes

Novice Member

Joined: 3/01/06
Posts: 1040

11/03/12 8:10:56 PM#77
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by SlickShoes

This game will be an acquired taste for sure, not just because of the death mechanics. I have been playing the beta today and it looks very dated, the character movement is horrible and the animations are very poor, the quest dialog is drier than the sahara.

Hopefully there is a LONG closed beta phase before this game is out.

that's the sort of stuff that will really kill attention to the game.. hopefully it's still very early beta...

It also has built in gamepad support for a PS3 controller, which is interesting, don't know if there is any chance of it landing on console at any point.

  corpusc

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1366

CHATTANOOGAN

contact me if you are seriously interested in
* C#
* making an old schoolish FPS

11/04/12 5:39:27 PM#78
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by corpusc

and i'd really like to hear of the complications involved in turning off PVP.

does your coding experience give you some technical insight as to why that is so difficult?

already explained numerous times.. you design a game with something in mind.. now you completely change what makes that game and now your are stuck supporting, adding, dealing with constant whiney customers for this.. If you design many systems like territory control and such specifically for PVP then they are missing in a PVE server the design of the maps and game just don't work and are pointless.. you design equipment easier to get as you know people will need easier ways to get equip due to the PVP rules and now the PVE customer base bitches equip is to easy to obtain among other things.. just to many variables you need ot worry about and just more and more headaches to deal with.. if I was a developer I would stick to my goal and vision of what sort of game I'm trying to create

 

no, this is no explanation.  this is completely ignoring just about everything i said on the topic. 

how convenient to stick your head in the sand and ignore how reality does not match up with your concepts about developer intentions, and does not erase the reality that a players enjoyment of games is not always dependent on how the game was deliberately designed.

people bitch about everything.  

that changes nothing about the reality that (for example) Darkfall, as it CURRENTLY exists (& you keep ignoring the fact that nothing needed to be changed, unlike your assertions) is a good PVE game and people enjoy playing it that way, DESPITE the lack of PVP.   even tho this flies in the face of all your concepts about game design.

The End
---------------------------
i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

11/04/12 5:45:10 PM#79
Originally posted by corpusc
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by corpusc

and i'd really like to hear of the complications involved in turning off PVP.

does your coding experience give you some technical insight as to why that is so difficult?

already explained numerous times.. you design a game with something in mind.. now you completely change what makes that game and now your are stuck supporting, adding, dealing with constant whiney customers for this.. If you design many systems like territory control and such specifically for PVP then they are missing in a PVE server the design of the maps and game just don't work and are pointless.. you design equipment easier to get as you know people will need easier ways to get equip due to the PVP rules and now the PVE customer base bitches equip is to easy to obtain among other things.. just to many variables you need ot worry about and just more and more headaches to deal with.. if I was a developer I would stick to my goal and vision of what sort of game I'm trying to create

 

no, this is no explanation.  this is completely ignoring just about everything i said on the topic. 

how convenient to stick your head in the sand and ignore how reality does not match up with your concepts about developer intentions, and does not erase the reality that a players enjoyment of games is not always dependent on how the game was deliberately designed.

people bitch about everything.  

that changes nothing about the reality that (for example) Darkfall, as it CURRENTLY exists (& you keep ignoring the fact that nothing needed to be changed, unlike your assertions) is a good PVE game and people enjoy playing it that way, DESPITE the lack of PVP.   even tho this flies in the face of all your concepts about game design.

me and a large group of my friends want a 100x wow server.. why should blizzard not give us this? all it would take is them to adjust the loot tables.. so why not do it?

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  corpusc

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1366

CHATTANOOGAN

contact me if you are seriously interested in
* C#
* making an old schoolish FPS

11/04/12 5:53:58 PM#80

wow.  do i really need to explain this.   8)

The End
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i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

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