Originally posted by Wizardry

There is a really big factor that proves perma death is not a good idea.it encourages large groups to protect each other.This can lead to a massive server wipe by one large faction/group/guild.

often i see people trying to make an excuse for it,however they are not looking at it realistically.When you mention the RUSH,is there a rush if one player is say using example ...level 50 and the other guy is level 5?There is no rush there,more so an obvious outcome that would make pvp literally a waste of time.

Or how about a gorup of 30 friends attacking 15,they could most likely wipe all 15 sending them packing back to noob status,while those 30 continue to further themselves from the server level/skill gap.

Those things exactly u describe ,are elements missing from current mmo scene. First of all the what could possiblt happen every time u login makes the game way more intresting from any other mmorpg. Secondly all the things u describe bring all players to a whole new interactivity and sociallity level. U have friends that your own avatar's life will be in their hands and theirs on u (dungeon fighting as groups,guild runs,friends u make inside the game..etc etc etc.These will not be friendships for the shake of friendships.

So u have have immersion,real interactivity and social lvl in good doses in this game.Good and bad things could happen.Bring it on !!!!

Originally posted by tazarconan

Originally posted by Wizardry

There is a really big factor that proves perma death is not a good idea.it encourages large groups to protect each other.This can lead to a massive server wipe by one large faction/group/guild.

often i see people trying to make an excuse for it,however they are not looking at it realistically.When you mention the RUSH,is there a rush if one player is say using example ...level 50 and the other guy is level 5?There is no rush there,more so an obvious outcome that would make pvp literally a waste of time.

Or how about a gorup of 30 friends attacking 15,they could most likely wipe all 15 sending them packing back to noob status,while those 30 continue to further themselves from the server level/skill gap.

Those things exactly u describe ,are elements missing from current mmo scene. First of all the what could possiblt happen every time u login makes the game way more intresting from any other mmorpg. Secondly all the things u describe bring all players to a whole new interactivity and sociallity level. U have friends that your own avatar's life will be in their hands and theirs on u (dungeon fighting as groups,guild runs,friends u make inside the game..etc etc etc.These will not be friendships for the shake of friendships.

So u have have immersion,real interactivity and social lvl in good doses in this game.Good and bad things could happen.Bring it on !!!!

that and with the bounty/criminal systems you could have everyone else put bountys on all these guys heads.. you think they will all play together at all times? i say no and then you work together and take them out

Originally posted by neosapience
Permadeath sounds like an interesting idea on paper. Hardcore players want that adrenaline rush that comes with the fear of loss. However, not everyone feels that way, as there are practical problems with permadeath.

For starters, most people are aware that in an online game you will experience connection issues. Nobody wants to lose 100's of hours of work to lag or a disconnect. There is no real way to prevent players from experiencing these issues and, given enough time, you will eventually lose your character to them.

Then there's the issue of risk VS. reward. Many people will 'play it safe' and simply grind lower level encounters to prevent untimely deaths. This causes the game to become really boring and people end up quitting. To prevent this, you have to reward people appropriately. This however, is almost impossible, as you have to make any single encounter worth as much as every single previous encounter combined.

You may think that's a bit unfair, and I agree, to an extent. While people enjoy playing video games, without any sort of progression, the game becomes little more than a fantasy FPS; die, respawn, die, respawn... etc. Progression means work, and people will tire of working for the same things over and over again, especially if the reward for success is little more than their previous encounter.

I think people are just tired of zero or near-zero death penalties in MMO's. That doesn't mean the solution is to implement its polar opposite, as that will cause just as many problems for most players.

 Hm, permadeath. That sounds interesting but most of the players wishing this as a feature in games have no clue what perma death is. Well lets say next game comes with perma death,maybe everquest next or guildwars 2 maybe rift 4.

If you have permadeath that means if you die in the game   it is game over for you, you may never more play this game,there is no second chance if you die. That is death as in rl no second chanse if you die therfore permadeath.

Originally posted by Vidir

 

 Hm, permadeath. That sounds interesting but most of the players wishing this as a feature in games have no clue what perma death is. Well lets say next game comes with perma death,maybe everquest next or guildwars 2 maybe rift 4.

If you have permadeath that means if you die in the game   it is game over for you, you may never more play this game,there is no second chance if you die. That is death as in rl no second chanse if you die therfore permadeath.

no one in their right mind thinks that what permadeath in a game means...

Well I watched the video, and yeah, the dude handled it extremeley well. The only thing that turned me off to it was the bond it broke. Obviously those two dudes played a lot together, now because of a fluke mob, they can't go dungeon crawling together anymore until he catches back up, which could take a while by the looks of it. By the way, it looks like a great game.

So my question to SoE is, why not have a separate server for those who want permadeath, so that those who don't want it can still have fun playing it? Is there really a need to force it?

Originally posted by Talemire

Well I watched the video, and yeah, the dude handled it extremeley well. The only thing that turned me off to it was the bond it broke. Obviously those two dudes played a lot together, now because of a fluke mob, they can't go dungeon crawling together anymore until he catches back up, which could take a while by the looks of it. By the way, it looks like a great game.

So my question to SoE is, why not have a separate server for those who want permadeath, so that those who don't want it can still have fun playing it? Is there really a need to force it?

this sort of goes back to the darkfall pve server or gw2 pvp server.. when an entire games ruleset including xp, drops, enemies, and all systems are based off a main concept it doesn't make much sense to make another server that destroys all that and completely changes the game you are making.. not only does that server not follow the dev's vision it also would make a huge issue with supporting a server and all aspects of it.. It wouldn't be as simple as just turning off permadeath on one server and have it on in another

While Perma Death may not be for everyone. I do think there is a crowd for it. That is why so many people gravitated towards the DayZ mod.

Perma Death is a challenge. It is not the only kind of challenge. Completing a raid can be a challenge as well. but it is a challenge none the less. Some people will risk Perma Death just to see if they can survive.

Originally posted by Johnie-Marz

While Perma Death may not be for everyone. I do think there is a crowd for it. That is why so many people gravitated towards the DayZ mod.

Perma Death is a challenge. It is not the only kind of challenge. Completing a raid can be a challenge as well. but it is a challenge none the less. Some people will risk Perma Death just to see if they can survive.

very much agreed it's all about variety which imho we don't have enough of in the MMO genre

Permadeath can work, just depends on how its impletmented, SWG has perma death for Jedis and it worked perfectly fine.

Side note: Who is getting disconnected? I havent been disconnected from a MMO in years except when the server itself shuts down and thats not really gonna hurt you any, are people still unable to get reliable internet these days?

Originally posted by Dalgor

Permadeath can work, just depends on how its impletmented, SWG has perma death for Jedis and it worked perfectly fine.

 

Side note: Who is getting disconnected? I havent been disconnected from a MMO in years except when the server itself shuts down and thats not really gonna hurt you any, are people still unable to get reliable internet these days?

yea on the DC issue usually once game is out of beta and as long as it just doesn't have an extreme amount of players trying to content or do something in the same area that no current hardware can reliably support I never have DC problems

Originally posted by Talemire

So my question to SoE is, why not have a separate server for those who want permadeath, so that those who don't want it can still have fun playing it? Is there really a need to force it?

Yes, there is a need to force it.

As the official webcast by soe of couple days ago stated, "you won't find the 12-years old, leeroy jenkins type around you. Those will never make it out the starting zone. The higher you progress, you will find dedicated people who take their gaming seriously. You'll have to band up, make friends, game will be impossible to solo" (more or less literally quoting community manager / brand manager / producer ).

Everyone else can go corpse-running and throw their bodies in the face of bosses in that other game. That other game that obviously is not for me, and I accept that fact and stay the hell away from it.

To each its own?

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by Talemire

Well I watched the video, and yeah, the dude handled it extremeley well. The only thing that turned me off to it was the bond it broke. Obviously those two dudes played a lot together, now because of a fluke mob, they can't go dungeon crawling together anymore until he catches back up, which could take a while by the looks of it. By the way, it looks like a great game.

So my question to SoE is, why not have a separate server for those who want permadeath, so that those who don't want it can still have fun playing it? Is there really a need to force it?

this sort of goes back to the darkfall pve server or gw2 pvp server.. when an entire games ruleset including xp, drops, enemies, and all systems are based off a main concept it doesn't make much sense to make another server that destroys all that and completely changes the game you are making.. not only does that server not follow the dev's vision it also would make a huge issue with supporting a server and all aspects of it.. It wouldn't be as simple as just turning off permadeath on one server and have it on in another

yes it would be that simple.  its done in reverse all the time for pvp servers (for otherwise PVE oriented games).

you can argue all you want that its not ideal, and that the resulting experience isn't nearly as good as if it had been designed for that, bla bla bla.....

but it IS that simple and there ARE people who do play on those servers and have fun.

many of the people playing Darkfall (such as myself) never PVP (in the past cuz the progression gap, currently because there's basically nobody to fight if you wanna remain clanless), and we STILL enjoy the PVE.  regardless of the game creators designs or intentions.  

Doom wasn't designed as a mulltiplayer game, and they just kinda threw in multiplayer just for the novelty, not expecting it to be one (if not THE) of the main ways the game was played.  for 15 years i've played Quake 2 on the "single player maps"....IN MULTIPLAYER.  i prefer them to the "deathmatch" maps which were designed for that purpose.  heck, Q2 wasn't even "designed for multiplayer" like Quake 3 was, and yet i find it to be have superior multiplayer gameplay.  they added those 8 DM maps later in a patch.

does not matter one bit to me WHAT Aventurine had in mind, or what their designs were.  it doesn't stop Darkfall from being a fun PVE game even with basically no other players around, and even with loot/items/etc that was "designed for PVP".

haven't we all learned that there is often a HUGE discrepancy between design/intention and the REALITY of how a specific combination of mechanics and content actually turn out?  isn't that one of the MAIN THEMES around here?  and yet people seem completely oblivious to that fact in threads like this.

a lot of the best game experiences (especially in multiplayer) ARE the best because of emergence.   undesigned things that emerge (unplanned) out of a complex system of interactions.  thats the beauty of games above other forms of entertainment.  especially multiplayer games.

Originally posted by corpusc

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by Talemire

Well I watched the video, and yeah, the dude handled it extremeley well. The only thing that turned me off to it was the bond it broke. Obviously those two dudes played a lot together, now because of a fluke mob, they can't go dungeon crawling together anymore until he catches back up, which could take a while by the looks of it. By the way, it looks like a great game.

So my question to SoE is, why not have a separate server for those who want permadeath, so that those who don't want it can still have fun playing it? Is there really a need to force it?

this sort of goes back to the darkfall pve server or gw2 pvp server.. when an entire games ruleset including xp, drops, enemies, and all systems are based off a main concept it doesn't make much sense to make another server that destroys all that and completely changes the game you are making.. not only does that server not follow the dev's vision it also would make a huge issue with supporting a server and all aspects of it.. It wouldn't be as simple as just turning off permadeath on one server and have it on in another

 

yes it would be that simple.  its done in reverse all the time for pvp servers (for otherwise PVE oriented games).

 

you can argue all you want that its not ideal, and that the resulting experience isn't nearly as good as if it had been designed for that, bla bla bla.....

 

but it IS that simple and there ARE people who do play on those servers and have fun.

many of the people playing Darkfall (such as myself) never PVP (in the past cuz the progression gap, currently because there's basically nobody to fight if you wanna remain clanless), and we STILL enjoy the PVE.  regardless of the game creators designs or intentions.  

Doom wasn't designed as a mulltiplayer game, and they just kinda threw in multiplayer just for the novelty, not expecting it to be one (if not THE) of the main ways the game was played.  for 15 years i've played Quake 2 on the "single player maps"....IN MULTIPLAYER.  i prefer them to the "deathmatch" maps which were designed for that purpose.  heck, Q2 wasn't even "designed for multiplayer" like Quake 3 was, and yet i find it to be have superior multiplayer gameplay.  they added those 8 DM maps later in a patch.

does not matter one bit to me WHAT Aventurine had in mind, or what their designs were.  it doesn't stop Darkfall from being a fun PVE game even with basically no other players around, and even with loot/items/etc that was "designed for PVP".

 

haven't we all learned that there is often a HUGE gap between design/intention and the REALITY of how a specific combination of mechanics and content actually turn out?  isn't that one of the MAIN THEMES around here?  and yet people seem completely oblivious to that fact threads like this.

a lot of the best game experiences (especially in multiplayer) ARE the best because of emergence.   undesigned things that emerge (unplanned) out of a complex system of interactions.  thats the beauty of games above other forms of entertainment.  especially multiplayer games.

the archchair developer approach.. it is not just that simple and if it was companies would do it as it would bring more players overall..  also it's just as bad trying to cater to the masses as it is trying to cater just ot a select few people.. but at least when concentrating on the type of game you envisioned it has a better chance to come out that way other than catering to what you believe everyone else wants.. problem is everyone wants differn't things so who do you listen to? if you are a developer this is a hard question to answer..

This just in!

The carebear crowd is appalled that one game wasn't made with them in mind!

People cheat.

That is why I don't see the point in playing a game with permadeath. Like in any activity, if you feel challenged then it is fun, if not then there is little point in the activity. The only game I ever played that had a true permadeath system was in a hardcore NWN persistant world. I left the game not because my character died, but because my character died to a GM who cheated.

I have played table top RPG's for the last 34 years and have lost more characters then I can remember, the costliest was just over 3 years of regular game time (6 hours a week for 3 years). It was a great death, I knew it was coming, we still talk about it to this day. Anotehr character died in just under an hour (after speding 4 hours making him) and we still talk about it to this day because the GM wanted the character dead and everyone felt bad for me.

If losing a character to a friend (who had a bad day) felt shitty then losing it to someone who cheats is just an effort in pointlessness. I don't mind risk, I don't mind punishment for bad play, but having the options taken away by cheating is not my idea of fun. So until a game can guarantee that cheating doesn't happen I will gladly accept the title 'Carebear' or whatever and have fun playing a game where risk and reward work. Figting another person who cheats is not a good risk/reward scenario and why I have yet to play a game with FFA PvP any fun. .

Originally posted by Maelwydd

People cheat.

That is why I don't see the point in playing a game with permadeath. Like in any activity, if you feel challenged then it is fun, if not then there is little point in the activity. The only game I ever played that had a true permadeath system was in a hardcore NWN persistant world. I left the game not because my character died, but because my character died to a GM who cheated.

I have played table top RPG's for the last 34 years and have lost more characters then I can remember, the costliest was just over 3 years of regular game time (6 hours a week for 3 years). It was a great death, I knew it was coming, we still talk about it to this day. Anotehr character died in just under an hour (after speding 4 hours making him) and we still talk about it to this day because the GM wanted the character dead and everyone felt bad for me.

If losing a character to a friend (who had a bad day) felt shitty then losing it to someone who cheats is just an effort in pointlessness. I don't mind risk, I don't mind punishment for bad play, but having the options taken away by cheating is not my idea of fun. So until a game can guarantee that cheating doesn't happen I will gladly accept the title 'Carebear' or whatever and have fun playing a game where risk and reward work. Figting another person who cheats is not a good risk/reward scenario and why I have yet to play a game with FFA PvP any fun. .

this is a good point and really up to the developers to really be on top of this type of stuff for a game like this to work well

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by corpusc

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by Talemire

Well I watched the video, and yeah, the dude handled it extremeley well. The only thing that turned me off to it was the bond it broke. Obviously those two dudes played a lot together, now because of a fluke mob, they can't go dungeon crawling together anymore until he catches back up, which could take a while by the looks of it. By the way, it looks like a great game.

So my question to SoE is, why not have a separate server for those who want permadeath, so that those who don't want it can still have fun playing it? Is there really a need to force it?

this sort of goes back to the darkfall pve server or gw2 pvp server.. when an entire games ruleset including xp, drops, enemies, and all systems are based off a main concept it doesn't make much sense to make another server that destroys all that and completely changes the game you are making.. not only does that server not follow the dev's vision it also would make a huge issue with supporting a server and all aspects of it.. It wouldn't be as simple as just turning off permadeath on one server and have it on in another

 

yes it would be that simple.  its done in reverse all the time for pvp servers (for otherwise PVE oriented games).

 

you can argue all you want that its not ideal, and that the resulting experience isn't nearly as good as if it had been designed for that, bla bla bla.....

 

but it IS that simple and there ARE people who do play on those servers and have fun.

many of the people playing Darkfall (such as myself) never PVP (in the past cuz the progression gap, currently because there's basically nobody to fight if you wanna remain clanless), and we STILL enjoy the PVE.  regardless of the game creators designs or intentions.  

Doom wasn't designed as a mulltiplayer game, and they just kinda threw in multiplayer just for the novelty, not expecting it to be one (if not THE) of the main ways the game was played.  for 15 years i've played Quake 2 on the "single player maps"....IN MULTIPLAYER.  i prefer them to the "deathmatch" maps which were designed for that purpose.  heck, Q2 wasn't even "designed for multiplayer" like Quake 3 was, and yet i find it to be have superior multiplayer gameplay.  they added those 8 DM maps later in a patch.

does not matter one bit to me WHAT Aventurine had in mind, or what their designs were.  it doesn't stop Darkfall from being a fun PVE game even with basically no other players around, and even with loot/items/etc that was "designed for PVP".

 

haven't we all learned that there is often a HUGE gap between design/intention and the REALITY of how a specific combination of mechanics and content actually turn out?  isn't that one of the MAIN THEMES around here?  and yet people seem completely oblivious to that fact threads like this.

a lot of the best game experiences (especially in multiplayer) ARE the best because of emergence.   undesigned things that emerge (unplanned) out of a complex system of interactions.  thats the beauty of games above other forms of entertainment.  especially multiplayer games.

the archchair developer approach.. it is not just that simple and if it was companies would do it as it would bring more players overall..  also it's just as bad trying to cater to the masses as it is trying to cater just ot a select few people.. but at least when concentrating on the type of game you envisioned it has a better chance to come out that way other than catering to what you believe everyone else wants.. problem is everyone wants differn't things so who do you listen to? if you are a developer this is a hard question to answer..

wrong.

i'm an actual game developer.

i talk about actual mechanics, and actual play experiences.  not just theories about designs like you are doing.  

YOU are the armchair developer, thinking that just because you can grasp certain concepts that it actually dictates reality.

nope.  HUMANS FAIL at their intentions.  ALL THE TIME.

talk is cheap.  just like all your theorizing.  you can talk about concepts all day long, and this was designed for this, and that was designed for the other.

ALL THAT MATTERS at the end of the day is the REALITY of the game experience.  REGARDLESS of human design/intention.

This system will work easy.

When you die theres only a chance of permadeath and even if you do die, you keep your soul level so your progression is saved.

Soul Level = Its like in League of Legends your summoner level. All the stuff you have done with all characters combined.

So, OP if you don't like it don't play. Many of us will and enjoy it.

Permadeath, War Z is doing it, Darkfall is, this game is and many more.

EQ Next  is gonna be sandbox, Elder scrolls will have action combat and a lot of PVP and neverwinter will be another old school rpg with S&S stuff.

The old school and hardcore is coming back and will be taking over very soon.

Originally posted by corpusc

 

 

wrong.

i'm an actual game developer.

i talk about actual mechanics, and actual play experiences.  not just theories about designs like you are doing.  

YOU are the armchair developer, thinking that just because you can grasp certain concepts that it actually dictates reality.

 

nope.  HUMANS FAIL at their intentions.  ALL THE TIME.

talk is cheap.  just like all your theorizing.  you can talk about concepts all day long, and this was designed for this, and that was designed for the other.

ALL THAT MATTERS at the end of the day is the REALITY of the game experience.  REGARDLESS of human design/intention.

i once created pong with barber poles in java.. think that qualifies me as a developer.. oh forgot i invented the swiffer as well.. true story.. what bothers me most is when developers cave and ruin their own games such as SWG and so many others...