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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Are/Did Developers take MMORPG's in the wrong direction?

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132 posts found
  VengeSunsoar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4850

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

10/29/12 4:47:05 PM#121

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Zylax
Successful indie mmos.
Uo - ea bought them later
Daoc - ea bought them later
EQ - Sony bought them later
Eve - still is
Wow - blizzard were independent at the time.

 

UO was bought by EA in 1992, UO was released in 1997.

EQ - was first planned and developed by 989 studios, then verant left, then came back to Sony.  So Sony had a hand in EQ from the very start.

I guess it depends on what you consider Indy.

If you consider it a small company than no UO, EQ, WoW were not Indy.

If you consider them just as a company developing and publishing on their own than EA, SOE and Blizzard are Indy as well.

NCSoft publishes and developes it's own games, they are just as indy as blizzard in that sense, and SOE

At what point do we not consider CCP indy, when they get to a certain size?  I mean after all they develop and publish their own games just like SOE does for it's games. 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

10/29/12 5:07:21 PM#122
Originally posted by Apraxis
But i personally think anyway, that we should just scrap the Massive part of MMOs, because i dont see a huge advantage in it.. Worlds/Servers with just a few hundred ppl are absolutely fine, and you will then have some sort of community, and you can do it a lot easier.

I'm sympathetic to the idea.  We lost a lot as the game grew too large.

Otoh, I really doubt you can run a game on the mud model any more, either.

Obviously, we'd need a small game that attracts big attention for Quality, yet doesn't open its doors to unlimited growth.  Good luck getting a corporate bean-counter to vote for game integrity over profit.

May not even be possible.  Budget vs expectations again.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Ozmodan

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/07
Posts: 6740

10/29/12 5:25:12 PM#123

The best example of the horrible state MMO's are in is SWTOR.  The Bioware team set out to create a completely guided tour of Star Wars, with voice overs and cut scenes galore.  It was a huge and expensive effort and they made the exact game they set out to make.  Except they forgot what happens when people are done with the tour, they move on.  Taking the tour more than a couple times gets boring.  There was nothing else to do, but take the tour.  

That is exactly why SWTOR will also fail as a f2p.  After people take the tour, they will leave.  Probably the best example of how not to make a MMO.

I would be willing to bet that the Bioware team set out to show how they could make a much better game than SWG without having a clue what made SWG the game it was.  The open world, detailed crafting, non linear play, ability to define what skills your character had, even to change them if you so desired.

UO, EQ, DAoC and even Wow somewhat were made by small independent developers, none of the shops were very big, even Blizzard was not that big when Wow came out.  So the guy is right above.  Even SWG was somewhat indie as it was a small shop and even SOE and LA did not really understand what they were doing with it.

  mikecackle

Novice Member

Joined: 4/05/12
Posts: 157

I'm a player not a gamer.

 
OP  10/29/12 5:30:53 PM#124
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Apraxis
But i personally think anyway, that we should just scrap the Massive part of MMOs, because i dont see a huge advantage in it.. Worlds/Servers with just a few hundred ppl are absolutely fine, and you will then have some sort of community, and you can do it a lot easier.

I'm sympathetic to the idea.  We lost a lot as the game grew too large.

Otoh, I really doubt you can run a game on the mud model any more, either.

Obviously, we'd need a small game that attracts big attention for Quality, yet doesn't open its doors to unlimited growth.  Good luck getting a corporate bean-counter to vote for game integrity over profit.

May not even be possible.  Budget vs expectations again.

What I found amazing no one has tried to make a RPG game run like a classic multiplayer FPS game on its own dedicated server with its owners playing with their friends and controlling it.. (aside from NW2) i guess thats close, but not a dedicated server. and of course those WoW emulators, thought that would spark the idea... Guess it comes down to controlling the IP and the $ncome... heh.. greed greed greed

  SaintPhilip

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/12
Posts: 729

10/29/12 5:39:08 PM#125
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Apraxis
But i personally think anyway, that we should just scrap the Massive part of MMOs, because i dont see a huge advantage in it.. Worlds/Servers with just a few hundred ppl are absolutely fine, and you will then have some sort of community, and you can do it a lot easier.

I'm sympathetic to the idea.  We lost a lot as the game grew too large.

Otoh, I really doubt you can run a game on the mud model any more, either.

Obviously, we'd need a small game that attracts big attention for Quality, yet doesn't open its doors to unlimited growth.  Good luck getting a corporate bean-counter to vote for game integrity over profit.

May not even be possible.  Budget vs expectations again.

Ice- I 100% think you hit the nail on the head.

 

  Vardahoth

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/28/07
Posts: 108

10/30/12 5:09:31 PM#126
Originally posted by mikecackle
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Apraxis
But i personally think anyway, that we should just scrap the Massive part of MMOs, because i dont see a huge advantage in it.. Worlds/Servers with just a few hundred ppl are absolutely fine, and you will then have some sort of community, and you can do it a lot easier.

I'm sympathetic to the idea.  We lost a lot as the game grew too large.

Otoh, I really doubt you can run a game on the mud model any more, either.

Obviously, we'd need a small game that attracts big attention for Quality, yet doesn't open its doors to unlimited growth.  Good luck getting a corporate bean-counter to vote for game integrity over profit.

May not even be possible.  Budget vs expectations again.

What I found amazing no one has tried to make a RPG game run like a classic multiplayer FPS game on its own dedicated server with its owners playing with their friends and controlling it.. (aside from NW2) i guess thats close, but not a dedicated server. and of course those WoW emulators, thought that would spark the idea... Guess it comes down to controlling the IP and the $ncome... heh.. greed greed greed

Diablo 2 and 3.

Signature

Played Ragnarok online (3 years), WoW (6 months off and on), Priston Tales (a month), Lineage 2 (6 years),every mmorpg on the game list for 1-3 months, every single player rpg from nintendo up to playstation.

  Helleri

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/26/08
Posts: 775

“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.”- Henry Ford

10/30/12 6:05:14 PM#127

@Vardahoth

I don't know if it will be a holy grail game exactly. I think at the very least it will raise the standard. I think once it comes out, and shortly before or after yogventures (which is basically modern graphics, with all the stuff you usually have to mod in already present in the mechanics). That the two will be popular enough that they may end up breaking this same-ole' trend.

a quick re-summarization of these two upcoming games for any who missed it:

- ArchAge will be coming out in late 2013-2014 and it's makers have been striving to include all the best features various MMO's have while droping the bad ones. They are doing nothing inovative, merely top quality with what exists already. Say you grabbed any MMO you have PLayed a long time and have an indepth list of things you would change, add, remove, leave the same, or other wise improve...you just thought up ArcheAge.

- Yogventures is basically made under the whim and direction of two guys who have played and reviewed a lot of games (due to their popularity they have gotten to play a lot of games we still haven't even seen previews for). They are basically paying people to make an MMO the way think it should be. This...could turn out disasterous. But what if you could sit down with a gaming buddy on a video confrence to a game studio and basically tell them what kind of MMO to make?

But, I compair all MMO's to Runescape. I won't get into why (unless prompted) because I have done that enough on these forums lol... It is simply my measuring stick (not just for it's positives but it's negatives as well).

  User Deleted
10/30/12 6:09:52 PM#128
Originally posted by ShakyMo

biggest problem, to detriment of mmos imo is INSTANCING

instanced dungeons, tupperware pvp, solo story phases, multiple shards of the same world zone

these things are killing MMOS, they stop them being massive and multiplayer

 

im not against zoning for performance reasons, providing thoose zones are singular and persistent.  but i am against instancing.

Instancing solved a lot of problems though, and opened up the idea of dungeons and raids beyond what could be done in the "open world."  I think some games take instancing too far, such as GW2, but the basic principle behind an instance works pretty well from a performance and design perspective.

  Quasimojo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/28/07
Posts: 32

10/30/12 6:31:27 PM#129
Originally posted by aesperus

MMOs are expensive. Developers aren't going to make MMOs they aren't sure people will play. Would you? Frontlining some of these projects means putting your neck & credibility on the line for 10s or 100s of millions of dollars.

More importantly though, we as players are very fickle in what we play. We are very reluctant to try new types of MMOs. Many of us are constantly trying to 'rediscover' games we've already played. And many of us will easily abandon a developer who is trying new things, rather than to try and support those new ideas with feedback, money, or encouragement.

 

I can tell you unoquivacally that I have never bailed on an MMO because the developer was trying new things.  I bailed on them because they were trying stupid and poorly conceived new things that cater to the least common denominator, which is the problem with pretty much all new MMO's that have come out in the last few years.

I don't blame any dev shop that is in it to make money.  I would be too.  However, just how many greatly hyped and near record-breaking launches followed by drastic drop-offs within the first six months does it take for them to figure out that all of these mewling mouth-breathers they're designing for aren't going to stick around playing for very long?  It's the people arguing against the conventionally envisioned "accessibility" that are their bread and butter.  It's like they'd rather have a million players for a year than 250k-500k for ten.

Also, I think it's no coincidence that the slide of the MMORPG genre has been proportional to the efforts to incorporate PvP in each and every title.  There, I said it.  Somebody had to.

 

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

10/31/12 4:44:39 PM#130
Quasi:
Mmos have moved in a MORE PVE direction.

Let's take the pre wow aaa mmos
Uo pvp heavy
Daoc pvp heavy
Eve pvp heavy
Planetside pvp heavy
Ao balanced
Ac balanced
Swg balanced
EQ pve heavy
Coh pve heavy

Compare with post wow

Eq2 pve heavy
Lotro pve heavy
Aoc pve heavy
Swtor pve heavy
Rift pve heavy
Tsw pve heavy
Gw2 balanced
War pvp heavy
Aion pvp heavy

This is how mmos have gone in general post wow.
More pve less pvp
More instancing less open world
More solo less massive
More themepark less sandbox
More gamey less immersive
More pop culture less rpg
  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

10/31/12 5:07:23 PM#131
Originally posted by ShakyMo


This is how mmos have gone in general post wow.

More pop culture less rpg

My UO and AC characters told me they want some of what your smoking.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  rungard

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1037

The Sandbox Foundation does not exist!

10/31/12 5:39:55 PM#132

they were.. but now  mmo's shall be dragged, kicking and screaming out of the darkness that was the age of WOW and into the the shining light that is the Second Age of Everquest.

Embrace the light, Embrace the light!

 

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