Originally posted by Zylaxx

Originally posted by SaintPhilip

Originally posted by Souldrainer

Originally posted by Vardahoth

Originally posted by mikecackle

Good responses, but ShakyMo.. What is tupperware pvp? :D

 

I would use the term instanced pvp. I remember Lineage 2 (2003 - 2006) and being involved in clan wars. Deaths meant losing exp (and gear if you were red from pking an unflagged player) which gave the wars meaning. It forced you as a player to be a part of a group in order to survive in the world of players. There were no instances in this game and it was completely community driven. There were sieges, open raid bosses with 8hr - 1week respawn times (depending on the type of raid boss it was). openworld dungeons usually took a party to help the player get down to the spot to exp at and it took about 20-40 mins to get there. There was plenty of crafting, buying and selling from player shops, and other things to do. There was over 40 classes and you chose your roll in the game and the type of people you wanted to play with. It also wasn't faction based. Clans formed their own alliances to control exp spots and castles to put tax rates on npc's in towns. I really miss those times.

The example you cite here is lame and unimaginative.  Negative reinforcement doesn't force people to group.  It forces people to not play the game, at all.

Big companies aren't very imaginative though.  Therein lies the problem.  Most MMOs are huge, big-budget affairs.  When you have that, you lose innovation in lieu of sales and propaganda.  Team Meat, for example, was a team of two people.  They were quoted as saying that Call of Duty and Halo were shitty games.  Then, they came out with an action platformer which nailed one of the highest Metacritic scores in recent years and is one of the top selling indie games, ever.

But to make the game, they had to sacrifice a lot.  It took them years, and they had to program and test day and night.  One guy's wife complained that she never saw anything but the back of his chair, even though he programmed the game with her in the same room.

If you want a painting on your wall to just EXIST, buying one from Big Lots is fine, but if you need a painting to be AMAZING, you might want to start buying from actual artists.  If games are ever to become art, we need to stop supporting the large mass-producing companies as much, and start buying from smaller starving artists.

Don't get me wrong.  Tastes will vary, but by and large, these mass-produced games are lacking in imagination.

Damn brother- very well said. Truley a superb reponse.

Disagree because 99% of all innovation come from the big boys and not from starving artists.

 

Name me one successful indie MMO?  NONE, cause they are all F2P crap, only the good stuff comes from well named studios.

Eve Online

A indie company can make a good game just as good as any AAA company as long as they have a devoted player base.

Originally posted by mbd1968

I agree with whoever said that inovation comes from inde developers but their lack of fund means a great idea goes nowhere. AAAs just look at $$$ in profit, which is reasonable as they are a business.

A great idea is often indistinguishable from a completely atrocious idea until it is actually functioning in its designated environment, surrounded by every other mechanic and ruleset that will affect it.

Originally posted by Zylaxx

Name me one successful indie MMO?  NONE, cause they are all F2P crap, only the good stuff comes from well named studios.

• Puzzle Pirates
• EVE Online
• Wizard 101
• A Tale in the Desert
• Saga

Now, I am fully aware that you won't consider those successful, but that's fine. It's further reinforcement of my earlier post.

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Zylax
Successful indie mmos.
Uo - ea bought them later
Daoc - ea bought them later
EQ - Sony bought them later
Eve - still is
Wow - blizzard were independent at the time.

According to this list, 'Independant' seems to mean, 'Not the largest game company in existance at the time'.  

Most of those games were developed by major gaming companies 'at the time'.

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Zylax
Successful indie mmos.
Uo - ea bought them later
Daoc - ea bought them later
EQ - Sony bought them later
Eve - still is
Wow - blizzard were independent at the time.

Blizzard wasnt independent at the time. Became a part of Vivendi in 1998.

LotrO is a better example of an indie MMO :)

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Developers listened to gamers and made the games based on their feedback. Whether they did that because they are diehard gamers making games for fellow gamers or they are lazy, greedy monsters is immaterial. They made games that most people want to play. How could that be the wrong direction?

Few here would realize there have been many MMOs that have gone in the right direction because of their hypocritical stance of wanting innovation and fresh ideas but rejecting anything that falls outside of their personal definition of what an MMO 'should be'.

• Lineage 2
• Maple Story
• Travian
• Habbo Hotel
• Club Penguin
• DOFUS
• Flyff
• A Tale in the Desert
• ACE Online
• Wizard 101
• Vindictus
• Mabinogi
• Free Realms
• Ikariam/Evony/Grepolis/etc
• Perfect World International
• Atlantica Online
• Clone Wars Adventures
• Hello Kitty Online
• Marvel Super Hero Squad
• Eden Eternal
• Dragonica

How many of those are considered 'the right direction' by people here?

• "that's just a korean grinder"
• "those are kids games"
• "that's not a real MMO"

If anything, the right direction seems to be to designing an MMO for the people that don't have a preconcieved notion of what an MMO should be and are just looking for a massively multiplayer online game. Maybe that's why there are a lot of games there that cater to parents and kids. They judge the game on the entertainment and fun it delivers. They approach each game for what it is, not for what category it fits in.

I don't think there will ever be an MMO in 'the right direction' for most of the gamers that would specifically identify with being an MMORPGer. In the past few years a lot of devs have realized that, which is why we don't have many traditional MMORPGs in development right now. There's simply too much baggage that goes with it.

 

Some of those titles used to be good games. The problem is they have all been re-vamped to appease the WoW Generation. It's great for 12-21 year olds now, but for an older generation (i'm 29, and we like our games that take time, effort, and making you think on how to build your character, all the while giving you the choice to decide your characters development, story, and reputation) it just leaves us dissappointed with a game we once loved and watched it turn into $h!t.

Yeah I know, "well it's a way for companys to make money, and when you come down to it, the company would rather do whatever it takes (even if it makes it into an "everybody wins a trophey" game). It is a business." Fine if mmorpg's are nothing more than "a business" instead of a game to enjoy, then I want no part of it.

Originally posted by Papadam

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Zylax
Successful indie mmos.
Uo - ea bought them later
Daoc - ea bought them later
EQ - Sony bought them later
Eve - still is
Wow - blizzard were independent at the time.

Blizzard wasnt independent at the time. Became a part of Vivendi in 1998.

LotrO is a better example of an indie MMO :)

This was discussed in detail in http://www.overstock.com/Books-Movies-Music-Games/The-Ultimate-History-of-Video-Games/168155/product.html?cid=202290&kid=9553000357392&track=pspla&kw={keyword}&adtype=pla and also in the book (cant remember the name) written by the EQ Dev.

Now, I cannot remember the exact story but WOW WAS in fact more of an idie project- Was never expected to be a "success" and even had placed an Artist on the job who was a writer for Blizz (I think he was a writer- he worked for them but not as an artist)- it was concieved and put together by a "small team" and was expected to be a failure...It was an EXPERIMENT with no goals of making huge money but a "practice run" if I recall correctly.

-There is more to it (wish I had time to refresh the old memory) but many books cover this.,..

Originally posted by Vardahoth

Originally posted by Loktofeit

 

Some of those titles used to be good games. The problem is they have all been re-vamped to appease the WoW Generation. It's great for 12-21 year olds now, but for an older generation (i'm 29, and we like our games that take time, effort, and making you think on how to build your character, all the while giving you the choice to decide your characters development, story, and reputation) it just leaves us dissappointed with a game we once loved and watched it turn into $h!t.

Yeah I know, "well it's a way for companys to make money, and when you come down to it, the company would rather do whatever it takes (even if it makes it into an "everybody wins a trophey" game). It is a business." Fine if mmorpg's are nothing more than "a business" instead of a game to enjoy, then I want no part of it.

That how i feel about all modern MMO.

Still waiting for ONE.

Originally posted by Souldrainer

If you want a painting on your wall to just EXIST, buying one from Big Lots is fine, but if you need a painting to be AMAZING, you might want to start buying from actual artists.  If games are ever to become art, we need to stop supporting the large mass-producing companies as much, and start buying from smaller starving artists.

The primary reason big corporations run the show, and starving artists don't?

Starving artists rarely get their products out of vaporware.

This Anti-Corporatism is a hokey backwater religion, at best.  Garage startups really don't deliver any superior art, to speak of.

You know that Steve Jobs guy?  Left college, went to work in a garage startup?  Bill Gates?

They didn't end up running tiny little shops at all.  They ended up the Chief Evils.  Huh, how did that happen?

Plants vs Zombies? Angry Birds? Possibly the closest thing the industry has seen to "garage startup hits" in recent memory...but their 'high art' consisted primarily of brevity and simplicity...kind of the opposite of what we preach on this site, every day.

think of it as a journey. We started ok but had to wade through years of crap to get to here.. on the cusp of what might be the real golden age of mmo's in the next few years.

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by Souldrainer

If you want a painting on your wall to just EXIST, buying one from Big Lots is fine, but if you need a painting to be AMAZING, you might want to start buying from actual artists.  If games are ever to become art, we need to stop supporting the large mass-producing companies as much, and start buying from smaller starving artists.

The primary reason big corporations run the show, and starving artists don't?

Starving artists rarely get their products out of vaporware.

This Anti-Corporatism is a hokey backwater religion, at best.  Garage startups really don't deliver any superior art, to speak of.

You know that Steve Jobs guy?  Left college, went to work in a garage startup?  Bill Gates?

They didn't end up running tiny little shops at all.  They ended up the Chief Evils.  Huh, how did that happen?

Plants vs Zombies? Angry Birds? Possibly the closest thing the industry has seen to "garage startup hits" in recent memory...but their 'high art' consisted primarily brevity and simplicity...kind of the opposite of what we preach on this site, every day.

Honestly? Piracy and very bad ethics is how this happened... In fact most of these :"great" Corporations were Pirates and Theives AT FIRST (again, outlined in the link above)

Even Atari got huge through very deceptive practices and...Piracy.

Steve Jobs was a prick who ripped off his own partner (would have stolen from his own Mother)

EDIT: And lets not forget the very cheap chinese labor who produces Apple products and GOVERNMENT (i.e. Taxpayer funded) subsidies and obligations to buy Apple products for school... My School System just bought half a million in IPADS (really) for the "special ed" department. Thgis is nationwide and why Apple is so succesful.

Slave labor + Government contracts= Most profitable company in HISTORY

EDIT 2: Atari was so fucking cheap during its rise (and ubur profitable time) they had the "lowest of the low" working there for peanuts- They had a Jar in their office to "donate" to an abortion fund so if one of their workers got pregnent they wouldnt have to miss much work. =/

No Health Insurance was offered and most who built Atari were fired.

Atari also created "front companies" to compete with Itself so it looked less profitable (and kept the employee bitching to a minimum) and keep its competition from truly understanding its assets.

-Oh there is so much more... And dont let me get started on Nintendo =P

Originally posted by Loktofeit

A great idea is often indistinguishable from a completely atrocious idea until it is actually functioning in its designated environment, surrounded by every other mechanic and ruleset that will affect it.

A great idea to survive this industry's doom prophets...needs all of the good PR it can get.

In the case of game publishers, that usually only works for the first game published.  After that, you're EvilCorp.

Originally posted by SaintPhilip

Even Atari got huge through very deceptive practices and...Piracy.

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by Loktofeit

A great idea is often indistinguishable from a completely atrocious idea until it is actually functioning in its designated environment, surrounded by every other mechanic and ruleset that will affect it.

A great idea to survive this industry's doom prophets...needs all of the good PR it can get.

In the case of game publishers, that usually only works for the first game published.  After that, you're EvilCorp.

Not nessasarily...But generally- Yes.

Greed corrupts and its the story of our modern Corporations- EL Hunt was the Worlds richest man and BOY what a story... He started by winning an Oil Field at a Card game- made some money, bought more Oil fields... THEN made a Corporatioon with friends and got laws passed (through $$$) which only allowed drilling for oil if you owned X amount of land (the exact amount hgis "corporation")-

As his corporation grew the law continually changed tio only allow drilling iif you owned (surprise) the NEW amount his corporation owned... Less and less drilling meant he bought claims for pennies on the Dollar.

-Then his Sons nearly took over the entire Worlds Silver market- Really... And by deception.

-Good story that- And shows how greed really does corrupt andcost us all.

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by SaintPhilip

Even Atari got huge through very deceptive practices and...Piracy.

Please name a corporation you do not hate.

I wouldnt hate corporations if they were under the Old laws.

Last Century a Corporation had to be chartered by Congree for a finite AMOUNT OF TIME- They had to show benefit to the American people or would be disbanded.

-No. Cannot think of a one.

Enjoy your GMO food corporations have lobbied to not allow labeling so you havnt a clue what you eat- Considering Monsanto Scientists refuse to eat their own GMO food.

-But we go off topic- I understand your Love for Corporations- This entire generation has lost sight of reality.

Originally posted by SaintPhilip

-No. Cannot think of a one.

Zero, huh?

The problem is not that they made games more casual-friendly, because the levelling part usually is the most enjoyable part of the game. The problem is that PvE-endgame mostly is a repetition of other games, combat is the same old tab-target system and the games are too shallow to make us invest in a new game.

Give me a better combat system, and a PvE-endgame where I can improve my character in multiple new ways, because current PvE-endgame with dailies, heroic dungeons and raiding simply aint fun enough anymore, and I already quit multiple games because of it.

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by SaintPhilip

-No. Cannot think of a one.

Zero, huh?

Yes. I do not like slave labor, unfair competition and subsidies. I do not support Profit above people.

-There were corporations I liked - GM for instance... Get a bailout (taxpayer funded) and watch what happens http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=Lvl5Gan69Wo

So do you support Slave labor, unfair Competition, taxpayer funded ass fuckings and the like?