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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The worst arguments against FFA PVP

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  Fusion

Old School

Joined: 5/21/03
Posts: 1364

10/23/12 5:17:01 PM#141
 

2004 ruined the mmo-community.

Currently playing: -

Waiting for: Class4.

Dead and Buried: ESO, NWO, GW2, SWTOR, Darkfall, AO, AC2, Vanguard, CoH/V, EnB, EVE, Neocron, FE, EQ, EQ2, DAoC, FFXI, FFXIV, SWG, WoW, and billions of eastern junks!

  Quirhid

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5537

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

10/23/12 5:26:45 PM#142
Originally posted by Biskop

OK, we have some additional arguments here it seems. Since I cba to reply to each individual post, I'll make another neat list of some of them.

"You're fighting strawmen here, and you don't even do it properly"

No I'm not and yes I am.

None of my arguments are strawmen (i.e. based upon imaginary opponents). This very thread has become ripe with exactly the type of arguments I list in the OP - arguments heard and seen in many different contexts and in many different places for a long time. None of them are imaginary or made up.

If you don't agree with my rebuttal of said arguments, fine. However, it does not mean I have not rebutted them. 

"You're being a horrible, condescending person because you use the word 'butthurt' once in your wall of text"

I am truly, deeply, very very sorry if I have hurt anyone's feelings. That was not my intention.

On the other hand, one could perhaps wish that the discussion could focus on the actual subject and not on a word commonly used to describe the over-sensitive kind of person who can not stand being owned in any type internet situation.

My post was not an attack on PVE players (and I can't understand how it can be read as such), only as a critique of the stupid arguments often made against one of my favorite playstyles.

"You FFA PVP people would cry of you got a taste of your own medicine"

Funny, I've been killed countless times in multiple games - often by superior players, often in an "unfair" way, and often by multiple opponents - and I've never, ever raged about it cried or sent angry PMs. Why would I? I knew what I was getting into, I played these games fully aware that I was going to get killed. Only an idiot gets angry because he dies in a computer game.

"People who play FFA PVP games are just snotty kids"

Not true at all. All the guilds and clans I've played with in FFA games have had an 18+ policy and strived to be as mature as possible. Sure there are pre-teens around in any game, but they usually flock to games like WOW, not EVE, DF and MO.

Running a big guild successfully in a territory control game is no easy matter. If some 13 year old can do it, kudos to him/her. Still, most of the best players in these types of games are generally well over 20. Some are even as old as I am, lol (not that I'm one of the best ofc).

"People who play FFA PVP games are scum, the worst of the worst, I'm happy they stay in their mental asylums and don't ruin my cuddly PVE games"

That is a very mature, non-condescending attitude, I wish more of you grown-up PVE-only enthusiasts could sport it more often. Makes you look really good.

"PVP communitites are not welcoming at all, PVE communites are all love and hugs"

Sorry, but that's just bs. There are plenty of nice, helpful, generous people in ALL games. And plenty of selfish, arrogant, immature pricks. In ALL games.

Stop generalizing so much people.

"I'm a really good PVPer myself and I dislike FFA PVP, which means FFA PVP sucks"

Well, most people think they're good. At least until they get owned.

Tastes differ, and whether a person likes or dislikes FFA PVP has nothing to do with skill, just preference. Some people excel at the type of skill involved in open world games, others melt faces in BGs and MOBAS. To each his own.

Note: nowhere do I state that FFA PVP is superior to all other playstyles. But it exists and people like it. Live with it.

"There must be something wrong with you if you like to inflict pain upon another person's pixels - instead you should strive to behave morally in all online situations, just like you would do irl"

Yeah, I'll start losing on purpose then, so that the other person will feel better. Just like I would do in a game of chess, or in a strategy game. I mean, we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings here, do we? Games are not played to win at all, but to be nice and sweet to each other, right?

Just like in war, right? The "good guys" fighting in a morally superior way, while the "soulless" enemy behaves like a Hollywood villain.

You're exactly the type of person you ridicule in the OP - you want all games to cater to your taste"

Not at all. I enjoy different types of games, and I love diversity. That's why I hate it when some people can not accept that others enjoy what they do not. I'm all for PVE games, SP RP games, FPS games, strategy games, and FFA PVP games. Let people play what they want, and don't make such a fuss about a playstyle you personally dislike.

Ranting about how 90% of the market (numbers pulled from someone's rear end btw) only wants PVE themeparks just goes to show how narrow-minded some of the posters here are.

"Well, there are some asshats out there, aren't there?"

There sure are. But they are everywhere, not only in games. Learn to accept that they're there, learn to beat them instead of crying about it.

 

Edit: added some stuff

Actually, you are creating strawmen left and right. And if the term is unknown to you, I suggest you refresh your memory here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4741

10/23/12 5:35:52 PM#143
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
Originally posted by Biskop

 

If we are talking about a sandbox game, how is FFA PVP fair for the non-combat oreinetd character? The only FFA PVP game I really ever tried on any level was Perpetuum Online for a few months when it released. Most people back then recommended 2 accounts. One for crafting and one for combat. Being a non combat oriented player was just not a good idea and yet, that was a role in the game. THis is my issue with FFA PVP.

you can PVE without ever getting attacked in perpetuum.  It doesnt have a sliding security scale like eve.  It has 100% pve areas, 100% pvp areas, like in a rvr game only its a sandbox.

which suggest you never played it.

Why on earth would I make up a lie about whether I played a craptastic, garbage EVE clone that nobody plays? If anything, I should be running around denying I ever knew of it's existence. Not to mention you took my post out of context. I never said anything about staying in Alpha vs going to Beta.

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  Purutzil

Elite Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 2860

The Critical Hit Pretzel!

10/23/12 5:39:14 PM#144

FFA PvP attracts griefers: Fact. Sorry it is, unless there a penalty on it, you WILL see high levels ganking lowbies and just over-all griefing those who stand no chance.

 

I wouldn't mind FFA if people weren't tools, but sadly, the human race has develoved quite a lot in MMos and a good majority of PvPers can be which just ruins the game. I just remember AoC the fact people would stand by waiting to kill someone purposely being at cap level of the starting area just to kill you as you walked through the door, which only got worst as you got to mainland and they would purpose jump you in areas much to low for their level. 

 

FFA pvp WITH purpose is fine... maybe I need to play a FFA PvP - RP server or something for me to like it. 

  Verik97

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/04/07
Posts: 8

10/23/12 5:55:06 PM#145
Originally posted by Biskop

"The devs will want to make money, so why don't they just remove the FFA PVP and attract more players?"

This line of reasoning is usually accompanied by some hobby economics bullshit, and just goes to show that sadly, many people believe money is the ultimate be-all end-all and that anyone not pursuing ultimate profit rates is out of his mind. These people can not understand that some devs primarily want to make a good game, a game they want to play, not make shitloads of money.

Of course, most devs need to make some money, or the game will die. But as mentioned above, all games do not need to have WOW-like numbers to be successful. Removing FFA and catering to the mainstream would be contrary to the core philosophy behind a game like DF, DayZ or Salem. It would not be the same game.

Also, it annoys me that some random forum people have the gall to try and tell devs (who have usually spent years developing the game) how to run their business - as if these entitled, spoiled, selfish internet brats knew better what the game in question needs. This of course goes for a lot of badly thought-out, opinionated bullshit floating around the gaming community, not only regarding FFA PVP games but games in general.

The part about the forum people telling devs how to make their games is especially annoying for me. If someone is developing a game they should have a clear vision of what the finished product will be and not need suggestions from the masses. If a dev needs feedback from their players to tell them that their game is turning out awful then that dev should find a new career.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

10/23/12 6:23:03 PM#146
Of course you never ever get asshats, greifers and jerks in raid guilds or on pve servers

  Mardukk

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/05/11
Posts: 1394

10/23/12 6:28:37 PM#147
How about ffa pvpers are adrenaline junkies. They always need that rush to be entertained. Also the problem I would think is more about these games having underdeveloped pve, basically glorified PvP arenas.
  User Deleted
10/23/12 6:38:31 PM#148
Originally posted by Thorqemada

True PvPers dont play MMOrpgs where Time and Gear be trumps above Player Skill.

FFA PvP does not work in a rpg wihtout rpg limitations and that is why most games fail as they be unlimited and also force players to adjust their living to the game instead of adjust the gaming to their live.

 

 

"True Skill" logic at its best.

  User Deleted
10/23/12 6:44:57 PM#149
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

I don't think many here are complaing that FFA PvP games do exist or that those games should try to change thier design focus. We are just trying to explain why FFA PvP games tend to be pretty unpopular, even with many players who enjoy other types of PvP.

 

While I don't care for PVP, I'll give people one simple reason out of the hundreds there are why PVP is unpopular.

They call every PVE player a carebear as a derogatory term. People are not welcomed in PVP communities, they are put down, in PVE communities they are welcomed with open arms.

What world do you live in CalmOceans? It seems everything you believe in every thread is entirely assumptions, void of actual life experience. My entire 15 years of hardcore MMORPG gaming and my degree in psychology are both in direct contradiction to almost everything you claim (incorrectly assume) about PvPers.

PvPers do not call every PvE player a carebear. That is a very small amount of players. Do you not know that those who post on forums or even those who talk in public chat are in the extreme MINORITY of the playerbase? Look up Battlefield Online and the developers vs. forum haters when introducing RMT (better weapons for IRL cash) to the FPS game. They ignored the forum ragers, became incredibly successful (and are making their second game bc of it), and found out that most players don't believe what the vocal minority shout so vehemently.

 

People are VERY welcome in PvP communities, just as much as people are NOT welcome in PvE communities.

You claim people are welcomed with open arms in PvE games, but that is not true at all. You claim people are not welcome in PvP communities, and this is also not true. In my experience which is quite vast in both, they are identical because the people are....people. PvP or PvE does NOT change their personality or social functioning like you so fasely believe (assume).

I can cite plenty of examples firsthand of PvP communities welcoming others with open arms, and give you an overwhelming amount of PvE communities who are extremely vicious to any newcomers. Hell, I'd rather join an extreme Darkfall PvP guild of thugs than to try to join a end-of-game (the game is dead now) DAoC PvE guild full of veteran elitists.

  User Deleted
10/23/12 6:51:03 PM#150
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Of course you never ever get asshats, greifers and jerks in raid guilds or on pve servers

Exactly, PvErs are saints compared to those PvP felons.

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

10/23/12 9:45:16 PM#151

"People who play FFA PVP games are sociopaths"

Unfortunately, the rest of the hate-soaked original post seems to only support this statement.

  User Deleted
10/23/12 10:04:36 PM#152
Originally posted by Fusion
Originally posted by grimgryphon

The problem with FFA PvP is that the community is only as good as the most vile member.

/thread

That is the scepter we walk with, because of ignorance.

Yes, we all know how misunderstood you poor FFA PvPers are. Boo hoo.

Actions speak louder than words, BTW.

  f0dell54

Novice Member

Joined: 4/16/12
Posts: 311

Sanity....
It's for the weak.

10/23/12 10:17:58 PM#153
Originally posted by Biskop

"This game would be great if it had a PVE server"

This argument usually comes from people who claim to be sandbox players. They want "a game like this" just without the FFA PVP, and so they come to the forums of said game clamoring for a PVE server, hoping that the devs will suddenly change their development focus just because these players want them to.

It is a very stupid argument and shows a total lack of understanding for game development. Usually the reasoning goes like this: "adding a PVE server is very easy and would not impact the PVP server in any way, so why are you guys so against it?"

Well, to begin with it's not that easy. A separate PVE server would require a lot of the devs' (often limited) resources, since it would differ in fundamental ways from the PVP server. A FFA game's whole core systems are built around PVP, so just changing them is no trivial matter. Designing and coding a separate ruleset for a game that is not designed for said ruleset would be a terrible waste of time and effort, and for what? So that people who don't even like the game to begin with can play it?

No, some gamers need to realize that games exist that do not cater to them - and never will. If you don't enjoy FFA PVP, don't play FFA PVP games. To each his own. You don't see FFA enthusiasts coming into the LOTRO forums demanding a FFA server, now do you?

Ultima Online added a PVE server to ever server with the introduction of Trammel. I guess the people at EA have a total lack of understanding for game development.

  Goll25

Novice Member

Joined: 1/19/10
Posts: 187

10/23/12 10:22:08 PM#154
I like FFA, it's relaxed and quick fun. However when playing an MMO and trying to be immeresed it makes no sense outside of a training ground situation. I guess it's hard to build an RP aspect around FFA when you really think about it. However I never understand why players make fun of players for playing a different style of the same thing. It's an idiotic arguement at best. Like pvpers vs pvers and so on... just play and have fun! 
  Biskop

Novice Member

Joined: 10/06/11
Posts: 731

 
OP  10/24/12 12:40:21 AM#155
Originally posted by Quirhid
Actually, you are creating strawmen left and right. And if the term is unknown to you, I suggest you refresh your memory here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

I know what a straw man is, dear.

But please do elaborate; in which way are any my arguments straw men?

I am listing actual statements, both from this thread and from elsewhere, and refuting them. None of them are misrepresentations or oversimplifications, and neither do I claim that they are representative for any single opponent. As a matter of fact, with the exception of this post I'm not even arguing with individuals or proposing some agenda here - I'm simply refuting certain common, general arguments (if you read my posts you'll see that I'm not attacking PVE or PVE players, nor do I claim FFA PVP is superior in any way).

So, while I may be generalizing to some extent - natural given the purpose of the thread - this does not mean that the arguments are straw men.

However, it's perhaps worth noting that some of the more venomous replies in this thread construct straw men, along the lines of "just look at how hateful and condescending the OP is; he's a typical PVPer and thus PVP sucks".

  IfrianMMO

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/21/12
Posts: 212

10/24/12 12:49:49 AM#156

Great thread, OP.

I will make sure to slap this thread into the whiner´s faces everytime they bish about being killed in a PVP game.

You should see the whinestorm that developed even in WoW once they opened the xross server zones and world pvp came back to life, literally thousands of pages of people complaining about pvp happening in pvp servers.

sigh...

 

 

 

  Malcanis

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/17/09
Posts: 3206

"A very special kind of stupidity"

10/24/12 3:55:17 AM#157
Originally posted by Fusion

Worst argument against FFA PVP = every argument!

If you cannot deal with it, don't play! Your cries mean nothing if a game is meant to have FFA PVP, DO NOT CRY ABOUT IT. it's meant to be there, however unjust you might feel it is.

I do not understand people that join/play an FFA PVP / FULL LOOT game and WHINE about it, i just simply cannot fathom that kind of person, what goes inside such a persons head besides kokoo-birds?

 

I have asked several people about that on the EVE forums. Why join a game which is famous for the unrestricted PvP and intense metagame. Their argument goes something like:

(1) EVE is the only successful sci fi game

(2) It has a really complex crafting system and a genuine player driven economy

(3) Therefore it's wrong of CCP to "waste" it on sociapathic PvPers

(4) Also CCP would make more money by turning it into yet another PvE grinder, and if a game makes more money it's by definition better (This is why a whore's kiss is better than one from your girlfriend)

Give me liberty or give me lasers

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

10/24/12 5:18:49 AM#158
Calm oceans:

Hilarious that you moan about the childish but let's face it rather trivial term "carebear"

When YOU describe players who like to pvp in a game as sociopaths, wannabe torturers, psychopaths and various other terms on several threads.

Which is more offensive, association with a cartoon bear with only love in its heart or deranged murderers, rapists and other sickos.
  rounner

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/07/06
Posts: 534

10/24/12 5:53:32 AM#159
Originally posted by Biskop
Originally posted by Quirhid
Actually, you are creating strawmen left and right. And if the term is unknown to you, I suggest you refresh your memory here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

I know what a straw man is, dear.

But please do elaborate; in which way are any my arguments straw men?

I am listing actual statements, both from this thread and from elsewhere, and refuting them. None of them are misrepresentations or oversimplifications, and neither do I claim that they are representative for any single opponent. As a matter of fact, with the exception of this post I'm not even arguing with individuals or proposing some agenda here - I'm simply refuting certain common, general arguments (if you read my posts you'll see that I'm not attacking PVE or PVE players, nor do I claim FFA PVP is superior in any way).

So, while I may be generalizing to some extent - natural given the purpose of the thread - this does not mean that the arguments are straw men.

However, it's perhaps worth noting that some of the more venomous replies in this thread construct straw men, along the lines of "just look at how hateful and condescending the OP is; he's a typical PVPer and thus PVP sucks".

Going on about non issues and ignoring glaring ones is pretty much what a straw man is. How about answering the two real concerns which have been posted in this thread several times but you havent answered. My paraphrased versions:

- Consequences for killing is too low/ or its a lot easier to break something than make something

- If you can pk loot then it devalues items and completely removes the item collection progression mechanic

Notice these concerns are centered around game mechanics and not around you.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12254

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Project Gorgon, and Combat Arms

10/24/12 6:08:37 AM#160
Originally posted by CalmOceans

While I don't care for PVP, I'll give people one simple reason out of the hundreds there are why PVP is unpopular.

They call every PVE player a carebear as a derogatory term. People are not welcomed in PVP communities, they are put down, in PVE communities they are welcomed with open arms.

You've obviously never spent much time around raiding guilds.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

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