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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The worst arguments against FFA PVP

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  dave6660

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/26/08
Posts: 2338

"Next time I see you, remind me not to talk to you."

10/25/12 2:44:48 PM#241
Let us have a moment of silence for all the mmorpg players who have suffered soul crushing, life altering loss of pixels at the hands of sociopaths...

"Why so serious?"
-- The Joker

  Waterlily

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/26/08
Posts: 2885

10/25/12 2:48:37 PM#242
Why do PVP players care so much to be accepted by PVE players, go play your games and stop trying to drag people into your drama-ridden cesspools.
  Zadawn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/04/10
Posts: 672

10/25/12 2:51:31 PM#243
Pretty much my thoughts on the matter.I love ffa fool loot games and always will.

  GrumpyMel2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1813

10/25/12 2:52:40 PM#244
Originally posted by dave6660
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Killing them and taking all their gear does

For some it might, assuming you actualy have the capability of doing so which most of thier victems don't, but for the real griefers it doesn't. They aren't even playing the same game as you. They are playing the "Let me find a way to ruin someone elses day" game. They don't care about thier characters or thier stuff. Everything is simply a tool to allow them to make someone else miserable. For those guys, the only thing that works is the ban-hammer. They exist in PvE games too...but under those rulesets it's very difficult for them to hide thier true intentions of griefing. In FFA PvP, the ruleset lets them easly hide griefing as a legitimate form of play.

How do you know what other players are thinking and what their motivation is for playing?

 

You don't need insight into anyones thoughts.. that's irrelevant to the discussion.... you simply judge them by thier BEHAVIOR. In PvE (and even in Faction based PvP) most of the BEHAVIOR involved in griefing falls outside the legitimate ruleset of play. In FFA PvP alot of the behavior in griefing falls within or is very close to the legitimate ruleset of play...thus not really something that is actionable.

Think about organized sports. Putting a hard hit on somebody is fully legitimate as long as they have the ball and the play is still active. The person could secretly be a sadist who secretly enjoys inflicting pain but hides it well or they could be a completely decent guy who is just trying to help his team win. As long as the guy is BEHAVING like a decent player...making fair hits, shaking hands at the end of the game, etc... it doesn't really matter what's going on in the guys head because no one is negatively effected by that. One the other hand a guy that is consistantly making cheap, late hits after the whistle has blown and then dancing around taunting the guy he just clocked...well he's probably a complete Punk but it's remotely possible that inside his head he's really a decent guy who's just being thoughtless and idiotic. Doesn't matter because he's BEHAVING like a Punk and that's wrecking the game for the other players...the Ref is going to EJECT him for his BEHAVIOR. Now if there are no rules against late hits and taunting, then you can't eject the Punks and the Idiots...the game suffers and ALOT fewer people are going to be interested in playing.

  Latella

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/27/09
Posts: 190

10/25/12 2:52:59 PM#245
Originally posted by Waterlily
Why do PVP players care so much to be accepted by PVE players, go play your games and stop trying to drag people into your drama-ridden cesspools.

 

Actually it´s the only way around.

It´s PVE players joining PVP games and attempting to convert both the game and community into a PVE one by whining and complaining and demanding changes in the name of "moral and fairness"

We would let you be if you just ate your half of the cake, but when you reach for our strawberries we defend ourselves.

Rawr.

  Vunak23

Novice Member

Joined: 11/27/10
Posts: 659

In your house Eatin' your Cookies!

10/25/12 2:57:31 PM#246
Originally posted by Waterlily
Why do PVP players care so much to be accepted by PVE players, go play your games and stop trying to drag people into your drama-ridden cesspools.

Its the other way around most of the time. PVE players jumping to bite the hand of any PvP game or PvPer, because it has a sense of competition you don't like or can't understand. 

Those last few words are kinda funny... Drama-ridden cesspools. So you don't enjoy drama, yet your creating it by stating what you did. Not to mention your on a forum that is nothing but drama, 2000+ posts as well, and I am sure they are all Drama Free like the one above. /Sarcasm

"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then we’ve got another one that is actually going to be – so we’re going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what we’re targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you can’t hold me to it. But what we’re targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

10/25/12 3:17:26 PM#247
Dave:
Perhaps we should launch some of those rubber bracelet things and call it pixel aid. Then could make a fortune flogging them to white knights so they can wear them in support if the poor downtrodden losers of pixels.
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

10/25/12 3:18:50 PM#248
Every raid guild I've been in has been a drama ridden cesspool.
  rungard

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1037

The Sandbox Foundation does not exist!

10/25/12 3:25:21 PM#249
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Every raid guild I've been in has been a drama ridden cesspool.

 pretty much the same. The greed is, for me, unnacceptable.

that said im not against raids per say, but i am against greed, so i avoid raiding in these games because they embody it. I have always thought that raids would be alot more fun, interesting and reasonaqble to people if raid events gave raid rewards and not individual rewards. That promotes teamwork and community in my opinion.

im sure not every guild is a greed infested powertrip, but in my experience its pretty common.

 

  GrumpyMel2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1813

10/25/12 3:26:04 PM#250
Originally posted by Latella
Originally posted by Waterlily
Why do PVP players care so much to be accepted by PVE players, go play your games and stop trying to drag people into your drama-ridden cesspools.

 

Actually it´s the only way around.

It´s PVE players joining PVP games and attempting to convert both the game and community into a PVE one by whining and complaining and demanding changes in the name of "moral and fairness"

We would let you be if you just ate your half of the cake, but when you reach for our strawberries we defend ourselves.

Um...actualy it's BOTH ways...I've EASLY seen just as much gnashing of teeth from PvP'ers or FFA PvPers when a new game gets announced with a PvE focus...that the game should include PvP or have FFA PvP or screaming and yelling that PvP is only restricted to certain zones/areas. Come on...go into any mostly PvE game or games with constricted PvP and tell me you don't see a bushell full of those posts?

For me I'm happy that there are different types of games made for different audiences. I'm happy that FFA PvPers have games that they can play. I'm especialy happy that there will be less of the type of behavior I don't enjoy dealing with in the games I like to play...because people who aren't looking for the same thing that I have will have a place to go.

However, what I DO see is ALOT of complaints from FFA PvP'ers about why so FEW games are made in that format. Why those games tend to be poorly funded, why more people aren't playing those games (so you have more folks to play with) and why some of those Dev's even try to shift the focus of thier games a bit.

Well that's because those games have a VERY LIMITED audience appeal...so there is only room for very few of them and those aren't going to be operating with much budget because they can't get enough players for a high revenue.

If you want to know a secret though...PvP isn't unpopular at ALL. ALOT of people enjoy it in the right context (witness the audience for FPS games)...I myself enjoy it in the right context. ALOT of people who enjoy PvE also enjoy PvP in the right context. ALOT of people are even willing to accept the concept of FFA PvP if it's implimented in a certain way (looking forward to PFO myself which techicaly has FFA PvP but is being designed to limit some of the most negative aspects).

However, very, very few of those people are willing to deal with $sshats who gank them as soon as they come out of the character manager and then corpse camp them to infinity while spewing rubbish. That's not entertaining for most folks. So if you want more FFA PvP games to be made and better funding for them, you're going to need to find a way to deal with the negative aspects of them, so you can actualy get some of those folks who MIGHT be willing to play them if they weren't complete griefests.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  stayontarget

Guide

Joined: 10/04/08
Posts: 6127

Girlfriends come and go but Epic battles are Soulbound

10/25/12 3:28:14 PM#251

This is the argument I hate the most.

 

"They are forcing me to pvp"

 

(no one is forcing you to buy the game silly)

Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...

  BadSpock

Elite Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7699

Logic be damned!

10/25/12 3:31:20 PM#252
Originally posted by stayontarget

This is the argument I hate the most.

"They are forcing me to pvp"

(no one is forcing you to buy the game silly)

Well that's the argument I hate the most.

There are no sandbox games (not really) where forced PvP isn't an option.

Some of us love sandbox, don't love forced PvP, and so are left with... memories of SWG and UO post-Trammel.

Now Playing:
Looking Towards: Destiny

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

10/25/12 3:34:29 PM#253

i don't mind pvp restricted to certain areas, providing they are areas of the open world.

I love daoc, I like perpetuum & gw2, I had some fun with warhammer and aion.

I also love eve, but that is pvp anywhere.

What i hate is where PVP gets ghettoed off in to little tupperware boxes, and then they maybe make flip a switch pvp servers without making any actual pvp content.  Then the rules of the game making plainly clear that raiding and having to join a raid guild is the pinacle of the game.

But guess what, I just don't buy games that have instanced raiding anymore, problem solved.  Some people look at a game for what features it has, I look at a game specifically for not having that 1 feature.

I'm not against daoc / coh / gw2 style raiding though where its more of a community building / community effort thing rather than a closed club for elitist jerks.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

10/25/12 3:35:38 PM#254
Originally posted by BadSpock
Originally posted by stayontarget

This is the argument I hate the most.

"They are forcing me to pvp"

(no one is forcing you to buy the game silly)

Well that's the argument I hate the most.

There are no sandbox games (not really) where forced PvP isn't an option.

Some of us love sandbox, don't love forced PvP, and so are left with... memories of SWG and UO post-Trammel.

you can play perpetuum without ever pvping

to elaborate, if your on the alpha isles they work like SWG, you can only pvp by flagging yourself on

the beta isles work like lowsec in eve.

now if your an industrialist you will need some materials from beta isles, but thats where been in a mixed guild comes in great, pveers need materials from pvpers, pvpers need materials from pveers from running missions.

  dave6660

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/26/08
Posts: 2338

"Next time I see you, remind me not to talk to you."

10/25/12 3:40:21 PM#255
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2
Originally posted by dave6660
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Killing them and taking all their gear does

For some it might, assuming you actualy have the capability of doing so which most of thier victems don't, but for the real griefers it doesn't. They aren't even playing the same game as you. They are playing the "Let me find a way to ruin someone elses day" game. They don't care about thier characters or thier stuff. Everything is simply a tool to allow them to make someone else miserable. For those guys, the only thing that works is the ban-hammer. They exist in PvE games too...but under those rulesets it's very difficult for them to hide thier true intentions of griefing. In FFA PvP, the ruleset lets them easly hide griefing as a legitimate form of play.

How do you know what other players are thinking and what their motivation is for playing?

 

You don't need insight into anyones thoughts.. that's irrelevant to the discussion.... you simply judge them by thier BEHAVIOR. In PvE (and even in Faction based PvP) most of the BEHAVIOR involved in griefing falls outside the legitimate ruleset of play. In FFA PvP alot of the behavior in griefing falls within or is very close to the legitimate ruleset of play...thus not really something that is actionable.

Think about organized sports. Putting a hard hit on somebody is fully legitimate as long as they have the ball and the play is still active. The person could secretly be a sadist who secretly enjoys inflicting pain but hides it well or they could be a completely decent guy who is just trying to help his team win. As long as the guy is BEHAVING like a decent player...making fair hits, shaking hands at the end of the game, etc... it doesn't really matter what's going on in the guys head because no one is negatively effected by that. One the other hand a guy that is consistantly making cheap, late hits after the whistle has blown and then dancing around taunting the guy he just clocked...well he's probably a complete Punk but it's remotely possible that inside his head he's really a decent guy who's just being thoughtless and idiotic. Doesn't matter because he's BEHAVING like a Punk and that's wrecking the game for the other players...the Ref is going to EJECT him for his BEHAVIOR. Now if there are no rules against late hits and taunting, then you can't eject the Punks and the Idiots...the game suffers and ALOT fewer people are going to be interested in playing.

Now you're talking about cheating.  Killing other players in a PvP game is not cheating.

Your previous post stated, "Let me find a way to ruin someone elses day" and "They don't care about thier characters or thier stuff".  I've played most of the FFA PvP games and I've never heard anyone say that.  Where are you getting this insight from?

"Why so serious?"
-- The Joker

  Rayshe

Novice Member

Joined: 11/30/11
Posts: 1295

10/25/12 3:45:17 PM#256

As a Face of Mankind Vet, i can say that FFA PVP does work. but you need a deterent. The game needs to be about more than just MURDER MURDER KILL DESTROY MURDER.  If thats all you want in a game i suggest Call of Duty or Battlefield, They are games where you are MENT to just do that.

 

By deterent i mean something like what Face of Mankind had. Unless you are actually at war with another faction if you kill somone you gain penalty points. The higher PP you get the more the player cops get when they arrest you. When you Hit a certian Level of PP you get Most Wanted, suddenly EVERYONE in the game get payed for killing you. To get rid of your PP you need to get yourself arrested and work it off inside the prison. Depending on what Milestone Patch the game was apart of it could be everything from Mining Rocks with a mining gun, Doing Prison only missions, or just standing around until the timer ran out.

 

There was also the ability to escape prison or break somone out. This deterent kept the game from becoming a "gankfest" it still isnt really, However the factions no longer think about diplomacy they just think about who they are gonna go to war with next. Which is why i dont play it anymore.

Because i can.
I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
Logic every gamers worst enemy.

  IfrianMMO

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/21/12
Posts: 212

10/25/12 3:48:08 PM#257
Originally posted by Rayshe

As a Face of Mankind Vet, i can say that FFA PVP does work. but you need a deterent. The game needs to be about more than just MURDER MURDER KILL DESTROY MURDER.  If thats all you want in a game i suggest Call of Duty or Battlefield, They are games where you are MENT to just do that.

 

By deterent i mean something like what Face of Mankind had. Unless you are actually at war with another faction if you kill somone you gain penalty points. The higher PP you get the more the player cops get when they arrest you. When you Hit a certian Level of PP you get Most Wanted, suddenly EVERYONE in the game get payed for killing you. To get rid of your PP you need to get yourself arrested and work it off inside the prison. Depending on what Milestone Patch the game was apart of it could be everything from Mining Rocks with a mining gun, Doing Prison only missions, or just standing around until the timer ran out.

 

There was also the ability to escape prison or break somone out. This deterent kept the game from becoming a "gankfest" it still isnt really, However the factions no longer think about diplomacy they just think about who they are gonna go to war with next. Which is why i dont play it anymore.

 

This sounds interesting, actually.

  Thupli

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/25/11
Posts: 403

10/25/12 3:57:38 PM#258

I think people use the word sociopath not because they think that someone really is IRL.  I think it is simply because you have a person that is simply enjoying "griefing"... which really just amounts to bullying.

 

I love opern world PVP, and pvp that matters.  I think if you could get a game that really dealt with getting rid of gear differences and level differences that usually just make the bullying/griefing into a real issue, I bet you wouldn't see NEARLY as many complaints about FFA.  It's the stuff that is just pointless that people wont put up with: getting camped by a high level that you can do nothing about, getting camped by a guy that is in gear that took years of gameplay to get that makes it impossible to even compete with them. 

 

Anyhow, that being said, I really liked Shadowbane's set up.  Could you be ganked?  Yeah.  Was it still one of the most enjoyable pvp set ups that I have played?  Yeah.  I just wish it was re-made as a level-less game that had gear differences, but only like a +5-10% better advantage for higher end gear.  No FFA loot, but damage taken on death leading to replacement when broken, in order to have a cash sink, but not stopping your pvp time like when people loot gear off of you.  Player driven cities and strategies and forum social pvp to keep ther reason to pvp there. 

And lastly, a way to even kill a guildie/ally if they are being a douche.  Some sort of flagging over-ride pop up.

 

That's my ideal FFA pvp.

  GrumpyMel2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1813

10/25/12 3:57:42 PM#259

Let me give you guys some insight into my UO experience. Bought it wat back in the day. Was pretty new to MMO's (had briefly tried Meridian 59).  Installed, connected, rolled up a character. Was trying to figure out some of the basics of play...move, talk, check inventory, equip a weapon, etc. I believe I had just figured out how to move a bit. I was killed within 2 minutes of getting out of the character manager. Didn't even know how to talk yet or draw a weapon, let alone fight. No big deal, I figured I would just respawn....killed again within a few seconds....respawn, killed again. I think I was killed about a dozen times within the first 5 minutes of player....never learned how to talk or equip an item let alone fight..I wasn't given any opportunity to do so.

So I figured, "This isn't working...let me log out for a few hours."  Logged in 3 hours later...killed again within the first minute.

Logged out and waited 2 days this time.....killed again within a couple minutes of logging in.

Is that what you guys define as "Quality PvP" or "Entertainment"?

Any guess what I did next?  What any sane person would do...I concluded that UO was pretty much a waste of my time where it was impossible to get started,  and certainly not any fun to be had. I uninstalled it from my hard drive and threw away the box.

Now my experience may have been the exception....I may have just had horrible luck..... there may have been great aspects to the game....however the only thing the experience I had of it was that it just wasn't worth trying to play.

Every player that has that sort of experience in a FFA PvP game is a player the game COULD have had but never will.

Now I don't care that a bunch of digital pixels I had was slaughtered repeatedly...I do care that I was being prevented from even TRYING to learn or play the game. YMMV.

  rungard

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1037

The Sandbox Foundation does not exist!

10/25/12 3:59:24 PM#260
Originally posted by Rayshe

As a Face of Mankind Vet, i can say that FFA PVP does work. but you need a deterent. The game needs to be about more than just MURDER MURDER KILL DESTROY MURDER.  If thats all you want in a game i suggest Call of Duty or Battlefield, They are games where you are MENT to just do that.

 

By deterent i mean something like what Face of Mankind had. Unless you are actually at war with another faction if you kill somone you gain penalty points. The higher PP you get the more the player cops get when they arrest you. When you Hit a certian Level of PP you get Most Wanted, suddenly EVERYONE in the game get payed for killing you. To get rid of your PP you need to get yourself arrested and work it off inside the prison. Depending on what Milestone Patch the game was apart of it could be everything from Mining Rocks with a mining gun, Doing Prison only missions, or just standing around until the timer ran out.

 

There was also the ability to escape prison or break somone out. This deterent kept the game from becoming a "gankfest" it still isnt really, However the factions no longer think about diplomacy they just think about who they are gonna go to war with next. Which is why i dont play it anymore.

 i think thata is the core problem. the examples used for why world pvp is so bad are from games that have failed to generate a good set of rules for pvp. You cant go by the games that are devoid of any rules at all.

this is why i think there is massive potential for open world pvp with a strong set of rules.

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