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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The worst arguments against FFA PVP

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286 posts found
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

10/25/12 12:41:09 PM#221
Which is fine. If you don't like it you don't like it.

But if you notice, he mentioned the amateur psychologist pro pve white knights (not you) that come out with crap like pvpers are mentally deranged for liking such a playstyle, and a few of those stuck their big noses into this thread in a misguided attempt to dissuade us from our evil pvp choice before we go out and buy a machine gun and now down a bunch of people in real life.
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19496

10/25/12 12:59:18 PM#222
Originally posted by RefMinor
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Disatisfied9
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Of course you never ever get asshats, greifers and jerks in raid guilds or on pve servers

Exactly, PvErs are saints compared to those PvP felons.

The difference is that they can't affect my enjoyment much.

Jerks in raid guilds .. just raid on LFR and PUGs .. don't like the group .. hit the quit button. I don't have to suffer anyone.

 

In the same way, if you don't like FFA, hit the quit button.

I do it a better way. Don't play FFA in the first place.

  Anthara

Novice Member

Joined: 8/14/06
Posts: 76

10/25/12 1:00:13 PM#223

While I agree in what the op says in most cases... I can't avoid saying that the term "wow dueling" is kinda falling into the same cheap criticism.

I don't play wow since TBC, except the first month of every expansion cause I like to check the new stuff. And I have to say, I've seen more world pvp this expansion in a couple new zones than all the ten mmo's that launched since then.

Also I fail to see any recent game with "decent" ffa pvp. No... spawn ganking lowbies in early zones with a high tune is not ffa pvp. And I doubt any hardcore pvper enjoy beeing spawn ganked 24/7 by a vet. Even for the most brave, chilled, hardcore pvper there isn't any "fun" envolved.

FFA pvp is not just free for all, you need to build something logical and organized... well planned.

That's where I believe EVE pvp wins all over the competition.

Anyway, all valid points but you couldn't avoid bringing the word "WoW" to the table wich is pretty ridiculous.

And about someone else saying he knows guys in the military that play pvp... "so they are not cowards for sure"... like if beeing in the military this days have anything to do with bravery.

 

  GrumpyMel2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1813

10/25/12 1:04:58 PM#224
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Grumpy:

So say on a pve wow server

How do you deal with that bot that's mining all your nodes?
How do you get back that guy that kicked you right at the end of the boss fight so he could ninja the loot?
How do you stop the guy that trained a bunch of mobs onto you?
How do you stop the guy that watches you clear a path to the named quest mob then rushes in and grabs it at the last minute for the lolz?
How do you do the raid progression without encountering gear score nazis?

I can't speak for WoW since I haven't played it in many years....but I can speak for LOTRO which I played more recently..

Nodes - Not really much of a problem, nodes replenish so quickly and there are so many different areas you can get them that it easy enough just to pick them up in another spot. Plus you can report them and something WILL be done about it. Worst casr scenario, you work on something else in the game for a little bit.

Ninja - Just put them on your list to never group with again. No big deal.

Mob Trains - Not an issue. Mobs stick to who-ever aggro'd them...meaning trains are not possible.

Named Mob - No big deal. You'll grab the next spawn. Worst case scenario you go work on another quest or thing in the game for a bit. If the person follows you and does it again...REPORT. That sort of harrasment is a BANNABLE offense in PvE.

Raids - No big deal. Just Raid/Group with people you enjoy grouping with.

All the things you mention are simply minor temporary inconveniences that one can avoid by just avoiding that player or doing something else. If that player follows you around to continue to interrupt your play, that's considered HARRASSMENT...it's a violation of TOS and can be REPORTED and result in that person being BANNED.

In FFA PvP what would be considered HARRASSMENT in a PvE game is a normal function of play....a player 50 levels higher then you can corpse camp you, follow you around and generaly make your life hell and there's nothing you can do about it because it all falls within the normal rules of play. In a PVE game you'd report that person and they'd be yanked. Most people simply don't want to deal with that sort of $ss-hattery when playing a game for entertainment.

Rather then pretend no problem exists, I think you guys might be better served reckognizing the problem and thinking about what mechanisms might be used to deal with that. Either that or accept that your FFA PvP games will have a very limited player base. Clearly PvP itself is not unpopular (all the people playing FPS games are testamount to that). Even the concept of FFA PvP isn't.... ALOT of people actualy do try FFA PvP games but ALOT of those people quit very soon after trying them. Even a game like EvE which seems to have a pretty decent handle on FFA PvP gets a huge amount of people trying and then quiting. There is a REASON why so many FFA PvP games have tiny player bases and get very few new players joining.  It's not because people don't like the color of the box the game comes in.

  BadSpock

Elite Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7699

Logic be damned!

10/25/12 1:12:11 PM#225
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

In FFA PvP what would be considered HARRASSMENT in a PvE game is a normal function of play....a player 50 levels higher then you can corpse camp you, follow you around and generaly make your life hell and there's nothing you can do about it because it all falls within the normal rules of play. In a PVE game you'd report that person and they'd be yanked. Most people simply don't want to deal with that sort of $ss-hattery when playing a game for entertainment.

Rather then pretend no problem exists, I think you guys might be better served reckognizing the problem and thinking about what mechanisms might be used to deal with that. Either that or accept that your FFA PvP games will have a very limited player base. Clearly PvP itself is not unpopular (all the people playing FPS games are testamount to that). Even the concept of FFA PvP isn't.... ALOT of people actualy do try FFA PvP games but ALOT of those people quit very soon after trying them. Even a game like EvE which seems to have a pretty decent handle on FFA PvP gets a huge amount of people trying and then quiting. There is a REASON why so many FFA PvP games have tiny player bases and get very few new players joining.  It's not because people don't like the color of the box the game comes in.

This is a great post.

I agree completely.

As I've said, FFA PvP is really the only way to do PvP "right" in a MMORPG, but no one has ever done FFA PvP right thus far - as it is right now it is a horribly, horribly designed system.

Instead of trying to make the design actually work, anyone who asks questions and demands better/innovation is labelled a care bear and told to go back to WoW.

Now Playing:
Looking Towards: Destiny

  Kenze

Novice Member

Joined: 4/24/07
Posts: 1235

10/25/12 1:28:05 PM#226
nm.. i dont want to get in to the conversation

Watch your thoughts; they become words.
Watch your words; they become actions.
Watch your actions; they become habits.
Watch your habits; they become character.
Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.
—Lao-Tze

  GrumpyMel2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1813

10/25/12 1:32:17 PM#227
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Or you could just kill them and take all their gear.

Which....

A) Isn't really possible if they are 50+ levels above you.. (P.S. This is why people say that PvP in many MMO's stinks... compared  to a FPS game or Strategy Game where it's ALL about player skill and game-play decisions, in the progression based MMO it's ALOT about Levels)

B) Doesn't actualy do anything to stop them from wrecking your play experience since they can just come back and mess with you again and on and on in an endless cycle. What you don't get is that it's NOT about who kills who or anything stupid like that,  it's that you don't want to be forced to interact with or play with $sshats. In a PvE game you pretty much choose who you want to interact with and who effects your play....in a FFA PvP game...you don't. People get to mess with you and you can't avoid/ignore them.... even killing their characters is STILL being forced to interact with them and really not all that much better from many peoples perspectives then being killed by them. After All it's just a stupid bunch of pixels being killed/destroyed...that is NOT what's important to most people....what's important is that they are DISRUPTING your entertainment time.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

10/25/12 1:37:51 PM#228
In a FRIKIN GAME!

It's not real life. Do I go around killing people in real life and taking all there stuff, do I even want to, no do I hell.

Honestly you anti pvp amateur psychologist white knights are like Mary Whitehouse or something.
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

10/25/12 1:41:01 PM#229
Grumpy:
Only you find the greifers tend to be the biggest cry babies of the lot when you get them back.

That is one aspect where ffa pvp is like real life. Those that dish it out moan the most when they have to take it back.
  RefMinor

Novice Member

Joined: 7/16/11
Posts: 3542

Hipster

10/25/12 1:41:52 PM#230
Originally posted by ShakyMo
In a FRIKIN GAME!

It's not real life. Do I go around killing people in real life and taking all there stuff, do I even want to, no do I hell.

Honestly you anti pvp amateur psychologist white knights are like Mary Whitehouse or something.

For the US Citizens - Mary Whitehouse = an extreme version of Tipper Gore

  Rossboss

Novice Member

Joined: 10/26/10
Posts: 241

10/25/12 1:44:01 PM#231
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Grumpy:

So say on a pve wow server

How do you deal with that bot that's mining all your nodes?
How do you get back that guy that kicked you right at the end of the boss fight so he could ninja the loot?
How do you stop the guy that trained a bunch of mobs onto you?
How do you stop the guy that watches you clear a path to the named quest mob then rushes in and grabs it at the last minute for the lolz?
How do you do the raid progression without encountering gear score nazis?

There are generally controlled ways of solving these problems in PvE games:

Bots: In recently developed games, minimaps display the nodes you need. You can simply find another node and do that. Besides, bots don't generally have gear past the bare essentials and carry little aside from necessities. If they aren't actual people, killing them will not prove a point nor will it stop the bot from rezzing and making their way back to do their function.

Ninja-Looting: Blacklists are a thing of wonder if used properly. I might miss my one chance at that special item but most newer games have drop chances that are higher than 5% for those special items. You can just blacklist the person and run with other people. These players generally have a bad reputation with the community and are well known for their actions.

Mob-trainers: Simply put, be cautious like you would be in a FFA PvP game. If someone looks evil or seems to be doing something abnormal, walk away from that person. If they persist, do something else where that person isn't. These people generally are just looking for some "lulz" and will leave you alone if you don't just take it in the face.

Ninja-mob-killer: Do something else until said buttmuncher has left you alone. Most games have a multitude of other quests and/or objectives that will last you hours. These people are essentially e-bullies.

Gear-Score-Nazis: Generally you can spot these players from a crowd anyways. They pretty much are in love with stats and their flashy armor. Just don't group or associate yourself with them like people do in real life.

In the end, FFA PvP is not the only answer to buttmunchers. Sometimes, it's best just to wait for your opportunity to take it on a later date.

I played WoW up until WotLK, played RoM for 2 years and now Rift.
I am F2P player. I support games when I feel they deserve my money and I want the items enough.
I don't troll, and I don't take kindly to trolls.

  dave6660

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/26/08
Posts: 2338

"Next time I see you, remind me not to talk to you."

10/25/12 1:45:30 PM#232
Originally posted by ShakyMo
In a FRIKIN GAME!

It's not real life. Do I go around killing people in real life and taking all there stuff, do I even want to, no do I hell.

Honestly you anti pvp amateur psychologist white knights are like Mary Whitehouse or something.

You can shout that from the roof tops, it's going to fall on deaf ears.

"Why so serious?"
-- The Joker

  GrumpyMel2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1813

10/25/12 1:48:48 PM#233
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Killing them and taking all their gear does

For some it might, assuming you actualy have the capability of doing so which most of thier victems don't, but for the real griefers it doesn't. They aren't even playing the same game as you. They are playing the "Let me find a way to ruin someone elses day" game. They don't care about thier characters or thier stuff. Everything is simply a tool to allow them to make someone else miserable. For those guys, the only thing that works is the ban-hammer. They exist in PvE games too...but under those rulesets it's very difficult for them to hide thier true intentions of griefing. In FFA PvP, the ruleset lets them easly hide griefing as a legitimate form of play.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10550

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

10/25/12 1:56:45 PM#234


Originally posted by ShakyMo
Grumpy:Only you find the greifers tend to be the biggest cry babies of the lot when you get them back.That is one aspect where ffa pvp is like real life. Those that dish it out moan the most when they have to take it back.


I have found this to be true as well. They are also the most likely to run away, combat log, use exploits to win, and whine excessively when they get caught doing any of these things. There's a post near the current end of this thread saying that those people aren't even playing the same game, and I think it's true. I don't know what game they are playing, but it doesn't look like a fun one.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  dave6660

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/26/08
Posts: 2338

"Next time I see you, remind me not to talk to you."

10/25/12 2:01:59 PM#235
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Killing them and taking all their gear does

For some it might, assuming you actualy have the capability of doing so which most of thier victems don't, but for the real griefers it doesn't. They aren't even playing the same game as you. They are playing the "Let me find a way to ruin someone elses day" game. They don't care about thier characters or thier stuff. Everything is simply a tool to allow them to make someone else miserable. For those guys, the only thing that works is the ban-hammer. They exist in PvE games too...but under those rulesets it's very difficult for them to hide thier true intentions of griefing. In FFA PvP, the ruleset lets them easly hide griefing as a legitimate form of play.

How do you know what other players are thinking and what their motivation is for playing?

 

"Why so serious?"
-- The Joker

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10550

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

10/25/12 2:10:40 PM#236

It occurs to me that if we're going to call people sociopaths, we should at least make sure we understand the term. There's a checklist of behaviors that sociopaths exhibit.

At least 3 of the following:

  • Callous unconcern for the feelings of others.
  • Gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for social norms, rules, and obligations.
  • Incapacity to maintain enduring relationships, though having no difficulty in establishing them.Very low tolerance to frustration and a low threshold for discharge of aggression, including violence.Incapacity to experience guilt or to profit from experience, particularly punishment.Markedly prone to blame others or to offer plausible rationalizations for the behavior that has brought the person into conflict with society.


There's a LOT more to diagnosing people with antisocial personality disorders, including the different types of psychopathy, but nobody here is a psychologist, so nobody here is really qualified to diagnose anyone with anything, but we can at least get an idea of what the term means. :-)

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  dave6660

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/26/08
Posts: 2338

"Next time I see you, remind me not to talk to you."

10/25/12 2:20:27 PM#237
Originally posted by lizardbones

It occurs to me that if we're going to call people sociopaths, we should at least make sure we understand the term. There's a checklist of behaviors that sociopaths exhibit.

At least 3 of the following:
[list]
[*[Callous unconcern for the feelings of others.
[*]Gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for social norms, rules, and obligations.
[*]Incapacity to maintain enduring relationships, though having no difficulty in establishing them.
[*]Very low tolerance to frustration and a low threshold for discharge of aggression, including violence.
[*]Incapacity to experience guilt or to profit from experience, particularly punishment.
[*]Markedly prone to blame others or to offer plausible rationalizations for the behavior that has brought the person into conflict with society.
[/list]

There's a LOT more to diagnosing people with antisocial personality disorders, including the different types of psychopathy, but nobody here is a psychologist, so nobody here is really qualified to diagnose anyone with anyone with anyone, but we can at least get an idea of what the term means. :-)

We're talking about a video game for crying out loud.

Players killing other players pixels in an internet game that is supposed to be fun.

You guys are overthinking this to such an extreme I'm practically speechless.

"Why so serious?"
-- The Joker

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

10/25/12 2:23:27 PM#238
There's no need bothering with training people to be psychiatrists for 5 years, you can spot the nutters easily by seeing which people like using their set of pixels to blow up other peoples sets of pixels.

;)
  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10550

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

10/25/12 2:33:57 PM#239


Originally posted by dave6660

Originally posted by lizardbones It occurs to me that if we're going to call people sociopaths, we should at least make sure we understand the term. There's a checklist of behaviors that sociopaths exhibit. At least 3 of the following:
  • Callous unconcern for the feelings of others.
  • Gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for social norms, rules, and obligations.
  • Incapacity to maintain enduring relationships, though having no difficulty in establishing them.
  • Very low tolerance to frustration and a low threshold for discharge of aggression, including violence.
  • Incapacity to experience guilt or to profit from experience, particularly punishment.
  • Markedly prone to blame others or to offer plausible rationalizations for the behavior that has brought the person into conflict with society.
There's a LOT more to diagnosing people with antisocial personality disorders, including the different types of psychopathy, but nobody here is a psychologist, so nobody here is really qualified to diagnose anyone with anyone with anyone, but we can at least get an idea of what the term means. :-)
We're talking about a video game for crying out loud.

Players killing other players pixels in an internet game that is supposed to be fun.

You guys are overthinking this to such an extreme I'm practically speechless.




That's silly. You're not practically speechless...you typed out three whole sentences there. You're practically terse at best.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Vunak23

Novice Member

Joined: 11/27/10
Posts: 659

In your house Eatin' your Cookies!

10/25/12 2:36:44 PM#240

Solid post OP. The gaming community has degenerated, just look at XBOX Live. Sadly that gaming community has been invading the more intelligent and respected gaming community for years. People don't understand what it is to have an actual community in a game anymore. That simple fact has killed a lot of FFA PvP games in development and release. 

Richard Bartle had it right, you have to have all the different groups of gamers to create a successful online FFA PvP game. You need your achievers, killers, explorers, and socializers. More importantly you need the expanded list. You need your reds and your blues. You need your griefers and your anti-griefers. Unfortunately, that hasn't been reached in a Fantasy style FFA PvP sandbox in a long time. All you have is an overabundance of Reds...because its easy. 

The Blue players should be more abundant than the Reds, or a close balance. But with bad design decisions making it to easy to be a successful Red, that balance has been scewed the wrong way. 

If you started punishing the Reds like they did in older games. Lineage II, UO etc. you would have a decent game and a majority of the Anti-FFA hate would go away. The newer gamers would understand that the games they have now are just incomplete.

~~~~~~

A solid community will keep the Reds at bay through communication between the Blue players and the rest of the non PvPing community. The Reds will push back through innercommunication between each other, and at times will wage war on each other. Its a cycle that was seen in the older games that just isn't in the newer games anymore sadly. 

And as unfortunate as it is to say, will probably never be again because of the way the gaming community has changed these past several years.

"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then we’ve got another one that is actually going to be – so we’re going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what we’re targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you can’t hold me to it. But what we’re targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo

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