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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The worst arguments against FFA PVP

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286 posts found
  Yodi2007

Novice Member

Joined: 6/30/12
Posts: 166

10/24/12 12:57:15 PM#181

I Have something that may intrest both sides if devs can follow it correctly in my post a few months back! 

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5164689#5164689

Below is where we can disscuss and come up with new ideas for Sandparks!

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5164689#5164689

  RefMinor

Novice Member

Joined: 7/16/11
Posts: 3541

Hipster

10/24/12 1:04:36 PM#182
I would be interested in hearing what FFA games the naysayers have played, I am guessing for many it will have been the PvP server of their PVE themepark which has not been designed from the ground up to accommodate the FFA game style.
  rungard

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1037

The Sandbox Foundation does not exist!

10/24/12 1:07:52 PM#183
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Node stealers
Mob stealers
Quest item stealers
Ninja looters
People who kick you from group just before final boss dies
Dictatorial raid leaders
Crappy dkp systems
Ass kissers that get given the spoils
Gearscore / dps meter pedants

No everything is rosey in pve land.

The good thing with pvp games you can go kill these guys hard afterwards

 aka Justice.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

10/24/12 1:12:57 PM#184
Exactly ref.

"pvpers" in raid orientated games like wow tend to be far more greify.

Also they look at full loot and got "what I loose all my hard grinders epics", but loot just doesn't really work like that in most ff pvp games.

Community wise I think pvp orientated themeparks tend to have the best community e.g. daoc, planetside, heck even gw2 has good community compared to other modern mmos.

Then ffa pvp games and heavy pve games about the same.

Then the worst pve orientated games with token pvp servers e.g. wow.
Probably because the pvpers in these are bored because there's nothing to actually pvp for other than either for fun or to get kicks out of greifing.
  Arglebargle

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/13/07
Posts: 1054

10/24/12 1:25:01 PM#185
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Node stealers
Mob stealers
Quest item stealers
Ninja looters
People who kick you from group just before final boss dies
Dictatorial raid leaders
Crappy dkp systems
Ass kissers that get given the spoils
Gearscore / dps meter pedants

No everything is rosey in pve land.

The good thing with pvp games you can go kill these guys hard afterwards

Personally, I don't play  PVE games with that style.   For those exact reasons.

Various games have tried to come up with methods to deal with those issues.   CoH and GW2 come to mind.

 

While I am pretty far on the 'not interested' side of the PvP scale, I am still looking forward to World of Darkness.   There, it just seems so absolutely appropriate....

If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  Hefaistos

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/09/04
Posts: 141

10/24/12 1:30:00 PM#186
Originally posted by Grochie

So instead of 24 v 1 NPC , you get 24 v 1  poor sucker thats today's sheep.    Most open pvp I've been invovled hasn't been anymore skillful than fighting a npc boss.  Sure there has been moments of quality pvp, most has ethier been me ganking or being ganked.

 

 

24 vs 1 rarely but its happening. There are games where 5 dudes could kill 20+ people. Here is just one example. 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pot9r0TucTA

 

Look at the fight. Its 1g vs 1group, then 2nd group is coming and its attacking the same group, Black Dragon, then 3rd group is coming and its attacking Black Dragon. That means 24 people with a chance to attack 1 player. Whats the problem? 

Dieing is part of the game. 

 

Oh wait BD won that means 3 groups vs 1 group? How? Skill and some basic/advance pvp tactics. Where? Mordred FFA Server. Game: Dark Age of Camelot, best pvp game ever. 

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10430

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

10/24/12 1:31:20 PM#187

I'm not sure what all the indignation is about here. I can see a lot of defensive behavior, but I'm not entirely sure what people are defending against. Where is the threat? What is the horrific outcome of someone not wanting, nay, hating FFA PvP? What is the worst case scenario that needs to be defended against at all costs?

** edit **
You can substitute PvE for FFA PvP up there if you want...same question.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  eyelolled

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/13/10
Posts: 3083

I am more than some of my parts

10/24/12 1:36:03 PM#188

I am against playing in a FFAPvP game because I think there are legitimate reasons why society has progressed away from anarchy.  I however, think that it's great that these games exist because each person has thier own preferences even if they don't agree with my own.

 

What I don't understand is why people that have no interest in FFAPvP games, still choose to buy, play and complain about them. 

I also don't understand why people that ARE interested in FFAPvP games, still choose to buy, play and complain about games that don't contain that system.

All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

  rungard

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1037

The Sandbox Foundation does not exist!

10/24/12 1:47:39 PM#189

we have the hardcore ffa pvp maniac spawncamping greif machines

and the "i wont play if there is any pvp at all" carebear zealot pve purists game sanitizers

 

i would like to make another group. I call it the "i want it all, and i want it done right" group.

we can be the PVW's Players vs world.

 

 

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

10/24/12 1:48:06 PM#190
Lizard:
There's nothing wrong with not liking pvp games

There's a lot wrong with labeling people who like these sort of games sociopaths, psychopaths etc..
  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10430

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

10/24/12 1:48:20 PM#191


Originally posted by Hefaistos

Originally posted by Grochie So instead of 24 v 1 NPC , you get 24 v 1  poor sucker thats today's sheep.    Most open pvp I've been invovled hasn't been anymore skillful than fighting a npc boss.  Sure there has been moments of quality pvp, most has ethier been me ganking or being ganked.    
24 vs 1 rarely but its happening. There are games where 5 dudes could kill 20+ people. Here is just one example. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pot9r0TucTA

Look at the fight. Its 1g vs 1group, then 2nd group is coming and its attacking the same group, Black Dragon, then 3rd group is coming and its attacking Black Dragon. That means 24 people with a chance to attack 1 player. Whats the problem? 

Dieing is part of the game. 

Oh wait BD won that means 3 groups vs 1 group? How? Skill and some basic/advance pvp tactics. Where? Mordred FFA Server. Game: Dark Age of Camelot, best pvp game ever. 




Players on that server could avoid PvP up through level 10, giving them a chance to get into a guild and at least get started with the game. This would minimize 'ganking'. Like Eve, the DAOC devs put in some minimal mechanics to ensure a decent new player experience.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Kaneth

Elite Member

Joined: 8/19/07
Posts: 1551

10/24/12 2:01:51 PM#192
Originally posted by lizardbones

I'm not sure what all the indignation is about here. I can see a lot of defensive behavior, but I'm not entirely sure what people are defending against. Where is the threat? What is the horrific outcome of someone not wanting, nay, hating FFA PvP? What is the worst case scenario that needs to be defended against at all costs?

** edit **
You can substitute PvE for FFA PvP up there if you want...same question.

I really like these comments, because it really does speak the truth. Who cares what someone else likes? Although, just for a topic of some debate on a slow work day, it's entertaining enough.

I would consider myself a pvper. I played a fair amount on the Darktide server in Asheron's Call 1. Existed only in RvR after max level in DAoC, leveled on a pvp server in WoW before there was battleground (the old Hillsbrad Foothill fights were awesome), and I play a ton of FPS games.

Unfortunately for me, there really isn't a good FFA PvP mmo out there for me. I missed the glory days of UO because of lack of a decent computer at the time. I simply don't like the setting for EVE, and frankly anything else that's come out has been pretty shallow and bug ridden.

Often times, especially in MMOs, pvp exists simply for the sake of itself. There really doesn't seem to be a reason why I should or shouldn't kill anyone I come across. On the Darktide server in AC1, there was a bit of a player generated political system of sorts. I was never part of one of the large allegiences, and I was mostly an AntiPk type person (which could make for interesting conversations out in the wilds), but there didn't seem to be as much indiscriminate killing either.

You take a game like EVE, and there is very real reasons for the PvP, especially where resources and corporate competition come into play. Which is also probably why it's one of the most successful games that does have a punishing pvp system (albeit there are imposed guidelines of sorts coded into the game, high sec vs. 0.0 type elements).

I agree that PvPers and FFA PvP games in general do get a bad rap because of the very visible idiots who do exist within that space. However, if developers of these types of games want to be taken seriously, then they need to make some seriously good games. I just don't see that happening. Furthermore, I also would love to see a more sandbox mmo that doesn't rely upon FFA PvP as content. I like choices.

  dave6660

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/26/08
Posts: 2320

"Next time I see you, remind me not to talk to you."

10/24/12 2:08:31 PM#193
Originally posted by lizardbones

I'm not sure what all the indignation is about here. I can see a lot of defensive behavior, but I'm not entirely sure what people are defending against. Where is the threat? What is the horrific outcome of someone not wanting, nay, hating FFA PvP? What is the worst case scenario that needs to be defended against at all costs?

** edit **
You can substitute PvE for FFA PvP up there if you want...same question.

Isn't that what forums are for?  Without the back and forth between players who like a game / feature / idea and the players who don't... what would we talk about?

"Why so serious?"
-- The Joker

  Aconsar

Novice Member

Joined: 7/05/10
Posts: 268

10/24/12 2:18:34 PM#194
Originally posted by eyelolled

I am against playing in a FFAPvP game because I think there are legitimate reasons why society has progressed away from anarchy.  I however, think that it's great that these games exist because each person has thier own preferences even if they don't agree with my own.

 

What I don't understand is why people that have no interest in FFAPvP games, still choose to buy, play and complain about them. 

I also don't understand why people that ARE interested in FFAPvP games, still choose to buy, play and complain about games that don't contain that system.

Because there are so little games that actually contain it and the ones that do are horribly made with poor production values.

  RefMinor

Novice Member

Joined: 7/16/11
Posts: 3541

Hipster

10/24/12 2:19:37 PM#195
Originally posted by dave6660
Originally posted by lizardbones

I'm not sure what all the indignation is about here. I can see a lot of defensive behavior, but I'm not entirely sure what people are defending against. Where is the threat? What is the horrific outcome of someone not wanting, nay, hating FFA PvP? What is the worst case scenario that needs to be defended against at all costs?

** edit **
You can substitute PvE for FFA PvP up there if you want...same question.

Isn't that what forums are for?  Without the back and forth between players who like a game / feature / idea and the players who don't... what would we talk about?

How perfect GW2 is?

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10430

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

10/24/12 2:21:01 PM#196


Originally posted by dave6660

Originally posted by lizardbones I'm not sure what all the indignation is about here. I can see a lot of defensive behavior, but I'm not entirely sure what people are defending against. Where is the threat? What is the horrific outcome of someone not wanting, nay, hating FFA PvP? What is the worst case scenario that needs to be defended against at all costs? ** edit ** You can substitute PvE for FFA PvP up there if you want...same question.
Isn't that what forums are for?  Without the back and forth between players who like a game / feature / idea and the players who don't... what would we talk about?



Well yeah. But people are defending or attacking the idea of FFA PvP. Let's say I'm playing the cr@ptastic game, Mortal Online. Someone logs in, I gank them as soon as they log in, and then they complain a lot about FFA PvP and include the idea that I'm a sociopath. If my response is to shrug and continue playing, what is the worst that can possibly happen?

It seems a lot like I'm reading flyers from people who are trying to tell me that the world will literally come to an end and the only way I can save it is to vote for the right president. It just seems a little crazy.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Simphanatic

Novice Member

Joined: 9/11/12
Posts: 94

The problem with virtually every MMORPG: too much Pavlov and not enough Maslow.

10/24/12 3:03:19 PM#197

My previous FFA PvP experience has been limited to playing the Perfect World Harshlands server for a year. I'm horrible at PvP and it was an unpleasant experience. Trying to follow any kind of quest line was near impossible, I was daily attacked by players 10-20 levels higher, playing as I do -- 12+ hours a day was a wearing experience. But I didn't want to be saddled with the "carebear" title, so I soldiered on. After 12 months of beating my head against a wall I quit and went to a PvE server and stayed with the game another four years. The only thing that made me chuckle about the experience was when I read the forums and saw the Harshlands players complaining because so few new players were joining that server. I also played on a *cough* private PW server for a few months that was setup for FFA PvP. It was a lot more fun because you could reach level cap in a day, quickly acquire gear comparable to everyone else's, and at least stand a fair chance. But, like I said, I'm just not that good at PvP, so I left that too.

 

Truth be told, I met a lot of decent people who did PvP. Often, after beating me, they'd give my gear back and try to help me improve my skills (alas, the best tips I ever got involved avoiding attacks to begin with). Unfortunately, PvP'ers are no more/less honorable than any other game population. Some PvP'ers are braggarts, shitheads, bullies, and gankers who group up to prey on single players, and to say this isn't so is utter horseshit. I know better. You can put whatever "psychological" terms to them as pleases you.

 

That said, I'd happily play in another FFA PvP world, but only under these criteria:

  1. PvP is intrinsic to the game; i.e., attacks by rival factions only or attacks by players roleplaying outlaws, highwaymen, etc
  2. Player-run justice/legal system that pursues and punishes roleplaying badguys (an extension of PvP)
  3. Safe beginner cities, where new players cannot be attacked
  4. Some realistic means of fleeing when it's obvious you'll be overwhelmed
  5. If there's a questline (I'd hope there wasn't) then there should be safe zones (yeah, I know that defeats the notion of FFA, but too bad)
  6. Some safeguard preventing "rimming," whereby players can't be attacked back to back (an immunity period perhaps)
Simply allowing a bunch of knuckleheads to run about attacking whomever they please doesn't cut it for me.
 
Seeking protection of a guild doesn't always work. Some of us also enjoy gathering/farming activities and expecting protection from guildies during these activities just doesn't cut it.
 
As Jack Aubrey might put it, I'm not shy, but neither is there fun involved when you know you're going to be beat up repeatedly.
 
One last thing, a stich off topic: EVERY MMO I've played has had some kind of dueling mechanic. After 12 years of playing, I can count on one hand the number of times I've been challenged by players at the same level and with comparable gear. I don't challenge, nor do I accept challenges because it's my overwhelming experience that players only want to duel when they confident of victory. There's very little "good sport" evident in MMOs and, in my estimate, that does not bode well for any FFA PvP oriented game unless PvP is scrupulously regulated by players, GMs, or other means.
  RefMinor

Novice Member

Joined: 7/16/11
Posts: 3541

Hipster

10/24/12 3:19:18 PM#198
Originally posted by Simphanatic

My previous FFA PvP experience has been limited to playing the Perfect World Harshlands server for a year. I'm horrible at PvP and it was an unpleasant experience. Trying to follow any kind of quest line was near impossible, I was daily attacked by players 10-20 levels higher, playing as I do -- 12+ hours a day was a wearing experience. But I didn't want to be saddled with the "carebear" title, so I soldiered on. After 12 months of beating my head against a wall I quit and went to a PvE server and stayed with the game another four years. The only thing that made me chuckle about the experience was when I read the forums and saw the Harshlands players complaining because so few new players were joining that server. I also played on a *cough* private PW server for a few months that was setup for FFA PvP. It was a lot more fun because you could reach level cap in a day, quickly acquire gear comparable to everyone else's, and at least stand a fair chance. But, like I said, I'm just not that good at PvP, so I left that too.

 

Truth be told, I met a lot of decent people who did PvP. Often, after beating me, they'd give my gear back and try to help me improve my skills (alas, the best tips I ever got involved avoiding attacks to begin with). Unfortunately, PvP'ers are no more/less honorable than any other game population. Some PvP'ers are braggarts, shitheads, bullies, and gankers who group up to prey on single players, and to say this isn't so is utter horseshit. I know better. You can put whatever "psychological" terms to them as pleases you.

 

That said, I'd happily play in another FFA PvP world, but only under these criteria:

  1. PvP is intrinsic to the game; i.e., attacks by rival factions only or attacks by players roleplaying outlaws, highwaymen, etc
  2. Player-run justice/legal system that pursues and punishes roleplaying badguys (an extension of PvP)
  3. Safe beginner cities, where new players cannot be attacked
  4. Some realistic means of fleeing when it's obvious you'll be overwhelmed
  5. If there's a questline (I'd hope there wasn't) then there should be safe zones (yeah, I know that defeats the notion of FFA, but too bad)
  6. Some safeguard preventing "rimming," whereby players can't be attacked back to back (an immunity period perhaps)
Simply allowing a bunch of knuckleheads to run about attacking whomever they please doesn't cut it for me.
 
Seeking protection of a guild doesn't always work. Some of us also enjoy gathering/farming activities and expecting protection from guildies during these activities just doesn't cut it.
 
As Jack Aubrey might put it, I'm not shy, but neither is there fun involved when you know you're going to be beat up repeatedly.

That is pretty much what happens in a PvP server of a PvE game, the PvP is just toggled on with no thought to the gameplay and no purpose to the PvP, your list of wants is more likely to be found in a PvP game designed from he base up that way.

  GrumpyMel2

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1789

10/24/12 4:09:21 PM#199
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Node stealers
Mob stealers
Quest item stealers
Ninja looters
People who kick you from group just before final boss dies
Dictatorial raid leaders
Crappy dkp systems
Ass kissers that get given the spoils
Gearscore / dps meter pedants

No everything is rosey in pve land.

The good thing with pvp games you can go kill these guys hard afterwards

Um...with a PvE game you can simply CHOOSE not to associate with such individuals if you don't want to do so. You get to choose who you interact (group/raid) with and who you don't.

With a FFA PvP game there is NO choice to not to interact with the people who are being jerks...because although you may not interact with them...they will assuredly INTERACT with you. Your choice to avoid them is to simply NOT play the game, which is exactly what many people do.

In FPS based PvP if you get on a server with people who are $sshats you just drop the match and goto another server. No big deal.

In Turn Based Strategy Games PvP...you just don't invite those people to play with you again or refuse thier invitations.

In a Realm vs Realm PvP with a warzone (ala DAOC)... you at least have a built-in support base of players within your own faction who have an enlightened self-interest to help you out....at  the very worst you can leave the warzone and go do something else non PvP related for awhile in the game without being bothered.

In a FFA PvP game your option to get away from those people is to pretty much not play the game....especialy if you are fairly low level or new to the game. Hence that's exactly what alot of people who have tried those games and had lousy experiences have done.

  loulaki

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/20/11
Posts: 797

10/25/12 5:33:17 AM#200
i love this OP :  )

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