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Diablo 3

Diablo 3 

General Discussion  » Blizzard sucking money out of Pay Pal accounts.

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32 posts found
  onlinenow25

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/26/07
Posts: 282

 
OP  10/19/12 1:45:43 AM#1

So don't really know were to post this, trying to get a website or someone of some media avenue that can maybe research this or find out more about this issue.

Blizzard has had an error with the RMAH and PayPal and started sending money to players that have not resently sold an item on their RMAH.

Now instead of Blizzard going through what ever means they need to go to to try and get players to send the money back to them they are litterally siphoning the money out of peoples PayPal accounts with out the persons premission.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6933304725?page=1

This is one of the threads about the topic.  Hopefully someone else can screen shot it beofre they delete it.  If not ill have it saved PM me if the screenshot is needed.

Here it is, I REALLY REALLY hope someone on this website can relay this to someone that can make this big news.  It seems like this could lead to a very very serious security breach of some sort in the future 

  fivoroth

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/10/06
Posts: 3013

10/19/12 4:27:29 AM#2

Blizzard's mistake here but when you receive unexpected money, what do you do? Spend it of course! 

THis Charlie guy should have queried the transaction with Blizzard lol. Transactions often don't happen instantly and even though you see the balance in your account that money DOESN'T have finality before a couple of days are up. What does that mean? That the other party can CANCEL the transaction without the receiver's permission.

Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.

  Maggon

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/06
Posts: 307

10/19/12 4:32:21 AM#3

Now im not to familiar with the US laws, but isnt it illigal to take money from another persons bank or paypal account in this case - even if it was an error in the first place ? If they money has reached its destination, it shouldn't be possible for blizzard to actually withdraw the money as they shouldn't have access to that account o.O...

 

Sounds rather odd to me.

  Nitth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 3460

Magic Propels my Rolly Chair.

10/19/12 4:33:18 AM#4


Originally posted by fivoroth
Blizzard's mistake here but when you receive unexpected money, what do you do? Spend it of course! 

THis Charlie guy should have queried the transaction with Blizzard lol. Transactions often don't happen instantly and even though you see the balance in your account that money DOESN'T have finality before a couple of days are up. What does that mean? That the other party can CANCEL the transaction without the receiver's permission.


That's right, If you receive an unexpected $1000 in your bank account and spend it, That can be illegal or contested.

As for someone "extracting" money from accounts with out your consent that is defiantly illegal.

(at least according to AuS law which may not be relevant)


TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  OG_Zorvan

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/31/12
Posts: 646

10/19/12 4:54:09 AM#5

Blizzard is doing nothing illegal.

What you all are forgetting is how PayPal works.

PayPal is it's own separate account.

Sure, you can have it attached to your credit card or bank account, but it is still only your PayPal acount.

PayPal is the middle man.

Person 1 sends money ----> PayPal receives money, ------> gives money to Person 2.

 

In this case, Blizzard fucks up and sends money ------> PayPal receives money, clears it ------->Sends to Person 2' PayPal account.

Blizzard realizes their fuck up and notifies PayPal ------> PayPal retrieves the money from your PayPal account --------> PayPal gives money back to Blizzard.

Blizzard has never taken anything from your credit card or bank, PayPal has.

AND YOU GAVE THEM PERMISSION when you attached those cards and/or bank accounts.

EA CEO John Riccitiello's on future microtransactions: "When you are six hours into playing Battlefield and you run out of ammo in your clip, and we ask you for a dollar to reload, you're really not very price sensitive at that point in time...We're not gouging, but we're charging."

  kaiser3282

Tipster

Joined: 5/21/08
Posts: 2694

10/19/12 4:59:01 AM#6
If this is true then wow.... The whole RMAH fiasco with D3 just gets better and better.
  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16846

10/19/12 5:08:59 AM#7
Originally posted by Maggon

Now im not to familiar with the US laws, but isnt it illigal to take money from another persons bank or paypal account in this case - even if it was an error in the first place ? If they money has reached its destination, it shouldn't be possible for blizzard to actually withdraw the money as they shouldn't have access to that account o.O...

Sounds rather odd to me.

Nope. If a bank sends you 10 million instead of 10 bucks and you spend the money before they realize it you will go to jail.

And that is true in any country. The other way around things might be different but unless it say "gift" or something you are screwed. If Blizzard would give you a dollar and accidently gave you a million instead they can take it back though, but that isnt the case here.

Still, they should be better to inform people and frankly in this case they could have at least given the affected people some in game stuff or something because it is pretty bad PR.

  kaiser3282

Tipster

Joined: 5/21/08
Posts: 2694

10/19/12 5:14:42 AM#8
Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by Maggon

Now im not to familiar with the US laws, but isnt it illigal to take money from another persons bank or paypal account in this case - even if it was an error in the first place ? If they money has reached its destination, it shouldn't be possible for blizzard to actually withdraw the money as they shouldn't have access to that account o.O...

Sounds rather odd to me.

Nope. If a bank sends you 10 million instead of 10 bucks and you spend the money before they realize it you will go to jail.

And that is true in any country. The other way around things might be different but unless it say "gift" or something you are screwed. If Blizzard would give you a dollar and accidently gave you a million instead they can take it back though, but that isnt the case here.

Still, they should be better to inform people and frankly in this case they could have at least given the affected people some in game stuff or something because it is pretty bad PR.

Whike that is true, this isnt an error on any banks part. It is a private company who screwed up and IMO they should have to take it up with the banks themselves, not simply pull the money back out.

It would be like me accidentally giving someone too much money for smething I bought off them, then going and breaking into their house and taking it back when I realized it later. Yeah, technically they should just give me that money back, but it desnt give me the right (legally) to forcefully take it back. Theres a reason we have legal systems & courts after all.

  Hawkeye666

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/04/07
Posts: 7

"Anything worth doing is worth over doing. Moderation is for monks." R. A. Heinlein.

10/19/12 5:19:50 AM#9
At least in the US, this is perfectly legal. You do not have a right to keep any moneys deposited by mistake. Third party financial middlemen have no bearing on the legality. PayPal or you bank, or even you pay check electronically deposited. They can all take back any mistaken overages. Sorry. Though it may well be bad PR, it is not illegal.
  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16846

10/19/12 5:28:21 AM#10
Originally posted by kaiser3282
Originally posted by Loke666

Nope. If a bank sends you 10 million instead of 10 bucks and you spend the money before they realize it you will go to jail.

And that is true in any country. The other way around things might be different but unless it say "gift" or something you are screwed. If Blizzard would give you a dollar and accidently gave you a million instead they can take it back though, but that isnt the case here.

Still, they should be better to inform people and frankly in this case they could have at least given the affected people some in game stuff or something because it is pretty bad PR.

Whike that is true, this isnt an error on any banks part. It is a private company who screwed up and IMO they should have to take it up with the banks themselves, not simply pull the money back out.

It would be like me accidentally giving someone too much money for smething I bought off them, then going and breaking into their house and taking it back when I realized it later. Yeah, technically they should just give me that money back, but it desnt give me the right (legally) to forcefully take it back. Theres a reason we have legal systems & courts after all.

Banks are companies too, most of them private. And in either case the lawyers would eat you alive in court.

Yep, it is unfair and as I said, it is also bad PR but you would never win against Blizz in a case like this.

  Maggon

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/06
Posts: 307

10/19/12 5:33:47 AM#11
Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by Maggon

Now im not to familiar with the US laws, but isnt it illigal to take money from another persons bank or paypal account in this case - even if it was an error in the first place ? If they money has reached its destination, it shouldn't be possible for blizzard to actually withdraw the money as they shouldn't have access to that account o.O...

Sounds rather odd to me.

Nope. If a bank sends you 10 million instead of 10 bucks and you spend the money before they realize it you will go to jail.

And that is true in any country. The other way around things might be different but unless it say "gift" or something you are screwed. If Blizzard would give you a dollar and accidently gave you a million instead they can take it back though, but that isnt the case here.

Still, they should be better to inform people and frankly in this case they could have at least given the affected people some in game stuff or something because it is pretty bad PR.

I once discussed a similar case with my mother who works in bank, the way I described it was how I certainly understood it, if you send money to someone and don't get to cancel the transfer before it has gone through, the person with that money is legally capable of deciding to keep it or not, in case of how it works between individuals and companies I am not entirely certain, but in a banks case no sure if that's differen't or not compared to any other company and an individual.

  SlickShoes

Novice Member

Joined: 3/01/06
Posts: 1040

10/19/12 5:39:57 AM#12
Originally posted by OG_Zorvan

Blizzard is doing nothing illegal.

What you all are forgetting is how PayPal works.

PayPal is it's own separate account.

Sure, you can have it attached to your credit card or bank account, but it is still only your PayPal acount.

PayPal is the middle man.

Person 1 sends money ----> PayPal receives money, ------> gives money to Person 2.

 

In this case, Blizzard fucks up and sends money ------> PayPal receives money, clears it ------->Sends to Person 2' PayPal account.

Blizzard realizes their fuck up and notifies PayPal ------> PayPal retrieves the money from your PayPal account --------> PayPal gives money back to Blizzard.

Blizzard has never taken anything from your credit card or bank, PayPal has.

AND YOU GAVE THEM PERMISSION when you attached those cards and/or bank accounts.

This is true, if you have already spent the money your default payment source will be used to fund the payment because you have paypal the rights to use this when you added it. If you dont have a payment source linked your account with paypal will go in to a negative balance and they will eventually try to retrieve the money from you.

  saurus123

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/12/06
Posts: 558

10/19/12 5:41:20 AM#13
Originally posted by Hawkeye666
At least in the US, this is perfectly legal. You do not have a right to keep any moneys deposited by mistake. Third party financial middlemen have no bearing on the legality. PayPal or you bank, or even you pay check electronically deposited. They can all take back any mistaken overages. Sorry. Though it may well be bad PR, it is not illegal.

so wait you tell me someone can deposit money and after some time take it back from my bank account?

 

no wonder US is so screwed and declare Wars on everyone

 

  SlickShoes

Novice Member

Joined: 3/01/06
Posts: 1040

10/19/12 5:43:50 AM#14
Originally posted by kaiser3282
Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by Maggon

Now im not to familiar with the US laws, but isnt it illigal to take money from another persons bank or paypal account in this case - even if it was an error in the first place ? If they money has reached its destination, it shouldn't be possible for blizzard to actually withdraw the money as they shouldn't have access to that account o.O...

Sounds rather odd to me.

Nope. If a bank sends you 10 million instead of 10 bucks and you spend the money before they realize it you will go to jail.

And that is true in any country. The other way around things might be different but unless it say "gift" or something you are screwed. If Blizzard would give you a dollar and accidently gave you a million instead they can take it back though, but that isnt the case here.

Still, they should be better to inform people and frankly in this case they could have at least given the affected people some in game stuff or something because it is pretty bad PR.

Whike that is true, this isnt an error on any banks part. It is a private company who screwed up and IMO they should have to take it up with the banks themselves, not simply pull the money back out.

It would be like me accidentally giving someone too much money for smething I bought off them, then going and breaking into their house and taking it back when I realized it later. Yeah, technically they should just give me that money back, but it desnt give me the right (legally) to forcefully take it back. Theres a reason we have legal systems & courts after all.

But the Banks are not involved here, it's between the two people, blizz and the user, and paypal are the middleman. 

Person A is paid an amount in to his paypal account in error, he doesn't spend it, error is fixed, paypal then removes the funds back to the sender.

Problems only arise when people take money that was not theirs in the first place, sure it was an error but it's not your money, if you took it out to your bank account and spent it, paypal can still claim it back withdrawing from your default funding device or your balance.

  SlickShoes

Novice Member

Joined: 3/01/06
Posts: 1040

10/19/12 5:45:00 AM#15
Originally posted by saurus123
Originally posted by Hawkeye666
At least in the US, this is perfectly legal. You do not have a right to keep any moneys deposited by mistake. Third party financial middlemen have no bearing on the legality. PayPal or you bank, or even you pay check electronically deposited. They can all take back any mistaken overages. Sorry. Though it may well be bad PR, it is not illegal.

so wait you tell me someone can deposit money and after some time take it back from my bank account?

 

no wonder US is so screwed and declare Wars on everyone

 

Its nothing to do with your bank account though, it's a paypal transaction, I am sure if you read the ToS in paypal it will be stated somewhere that you agree to money being returned to the sender if there is an error.

  fivoroth

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/10/06
Posts: 3013

10/19/12 12:53:44 PM#16
Originally posted by Nitth

 


Originally posted by fivoroth
Blizzard's mistake here but when you receive unexpected money, what do you do? Spend it of course! 

 

THis Charlie guy should have queried the transaction with Blizzard lol. Transactions often don't happen instantly and even though you see the balance in your account that money DOESN'T have finality before a couple of days are up. What does that mean? That the other party can CANCEL the transaction without the receiver's permission.


 

That's right, If you receive an unexpected $1000 in your bank account and spend it, That can be illegal or contested.

As for someone "extracting" money from accounts with out your consent that is defiantly illegal.

(at least according to AuS law which may not be relevant)

But that's the thing. They can simply CANCEL the transaction not EXTRACT money from your account! How does it work? Quitte a lot of transactions don't actually happen instantly. For example, you get a cheque and you cash it in. You see the balance in your account. What does that mean? It means that transaction has availability (aka you can spend the money or withdraw it). However, that money does not have FINALITY. It will take another 1-2 days for the money to have finality. In this period you can SPEND the money but also the other party can withdraw the transaction without your permission. Once the transaction has finality then they can't take it out of your account.

Then again they can always charge back the transaction. All of these are perfectly legal. That's why if you receive unexpected money you wait a bit before you spend to make sure that there's no way that money is coming out of your account.

 

Originally posted by Maggon
Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by Maggon

Now im not to familiar with the US laws, but isnt it illigal to take money from another persons bank or paypal account in this case - even if it was an error in the first place ? If they money has reached its destination, it shouldn't be possible for blizzard to actually withdraw the money as they shouldn't have access to that account o.O...

Sounds rather odd to me.

Nope. If a bank sends you 10 million instead of 10 bucks and you spend the money before they realize it you will go to jail.

And that is true in any country. The other way around things might be different but unless it say "gift" or something you are screwed. If Blizzard would give you a dollar and accidently gave you a million instead they can take it back though, but that isnt the case here.

Still, they should be better to inform people and frankly in this case they could have at least given the affected people some in game stuff or something because it is pretty bad PR.

I once discussed a similar case with my mother who works in bank, the way I described it was how I certainly understood it, if you send money to someone and don't get to cancel the transfer before it has gone through, the person with that money is legally capable of deciding to keep it or not, in case of how it works between individuals and companies I am not entirely certain, but in a banks case no sure if that's differen't or not compared to any other company and an individual.

That is true. But as I said seeing the money in your account balance does not mean that the transaction has completely gone through. 

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  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19530

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10/19/12 1:06:15 PM#17

This news story has several scenarios in it from around the world, and the overall theme is you have to give the money back.

In fact, the banks can and will take it back without your permission and banking laws are actually pretty consistent worldwide, it really is a conspiracy.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/23/joseph-bucci-wells-fargo_n_1540549.html

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  zymurgeist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/24/04
Posts: 5212

10/20/12 8:19:53 AM#18
Originally posted by Kyleran

This news story has several scenarios in it from around the world, and the overall theme is you have to give the money back.

In fact, the banks can and will take it back without your permission and banking laws are actually pretty consistent worldwide, it really is a conspiracy.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/23/joseph-bucci-wells-fargo_n_1540549.html

 It's a conspiracy in the sense that every law ever made is a conspiracy. There's a word for taking things you aren't entitled too also. It's called stealing. If someone overpays you it's your moral and legal duty to return it. So why would this be a problem? If Blizzard takes something they aren't entitled to then it's a problem.

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  Purutzil

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 2912

The Critical Hit Pretzel!

10/20/12 8:24:54 AM#19

Yeah, thats a serious problem. What if I just need money in my paypal for paying bills and the likes, not realizing some of the money was sent accidentally from blizzard? I get screwed over when it gets taken?

 

Yeah sorry, its fine they get their money back, but they should at least send a warning and actually make note to give them a chance for THEIR mistake. 

  Aethaeryn

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/14/10
Posts: 1928

10/20/12 8:31:33 AM#20
Originally posted by Purutzil

Yeah, thats a serious problem. What if I just need money in my paypal for paying bills and the likes, not realizing some of the money was sent accidentally from blizzard? I get screwed over when it gets taken?

 

Yeah sorry, its fine they get their money back, but they should at least send a warning and actually make note to give them a chance for THEIR mistake. 

If you put money in to pay your bills and you know how much your bill are and how much you put in this should not be a problem.  You want warning when it is taken but you never knew it was there in the first place.

If you noticed it go in. . then one would expect you would notice it go out as well.

Either you watch your account or you don't

If you don't . . you didn't know it was there anyway. . if you do then you would notice both.

You have to take some responsibililty to monitor accounts you have or you could be a victim of identity theft etc.

 

Having said all of that, notice would be nice but not something I think should be mandatory. . just good public releations.

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