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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Paying subs for an MMO is an outdated model

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125 posts found
  stux

Novice Member

Joined: 9/23/09
Posts: 466

10/19/12 2:22:50 PM#61
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by JWTuna

And I really dont understand the hype about B2P. B2P is possibly the worst (not in the case of gw2, before you start fan-boying) system imagainable. You hand over a lump of money for a game that relies on ongoing servers/updates/fixes/etc, yet form no ongoing relationship with the developers. They have given you initial content, and owe you nothing beyond this...

But then they turn around and give you updates and ongoing support for free... how can they possibly afford to do that? Could it be that the profits are high enough from the original sale?... hmm... I wonder.

People are buying from the cash shop for many reasons giving them monthly income.  The way the game was made I would much rather pay for then have the destraction of being sold crap none stop.  Also, I am sure they will sell some expansions not for free...

  Istavaan

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/25/12
Posts: 1398

10/19/12 2:25:42 PM#62
Originally posted by stux
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by Istavaan
people are just conditioned to think mmo's should have a subscription fee, if  you asked someone who hasn't played an mmo what they think about paying 15 dollars a month for a game they already paid  60 dollars for, they'd simple say "are you high"..it's a scam and always has been.

Exactly. We bought into the scam when the infrastructure and bandwith cost a lot of money...but in 2012? Please...

The cost of making, fixing bugs/balancing/etc., and updating these are huge.

 

So many people here seem to think developers should work for free or someone else should pay for it.

 

Please......

 

Stop begging or stop playing.

 

 

I don't need to beg i can get an mmo now that has the same quality as an mmo that has a sub, it would be stupid of me to pay for something that i can get for free. I've spent enough money on subscription mmo's, the model is dead.

  Istavaan

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/25/12
Posts: 1398

10/19/12 2:28:11 PM#63
Originally posted by coretex666

I would pay 50 USD / month for a top quality game and I believe i am not alone.

Problem of recent P2P games is not the business model, but the fact that they lack quality to be profitable using it.

I disagree that it is an outdated model.

 

Because you believe because you are paying 50 dollars a month that you are going to get a higher quality experience, it's just not true you are just failing into the scam. it's your money though so i don't really care what you do with it. i know i won't be supporting sub based mmo's ever again.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18345

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

10/19/12 2:29:39 PM#64
Originally posted by chryses

In today's market there are:

- consoles - Don't play them.

- PC single player games like Skyrim - Rarely play them, but I did buy Skyrim, lasted about 2 weeks

- Hand held devices - You mean a phone, (or tablet) I use it for web surfing and, uh, calls. Not gaming

- dozens of MMO's - But few actual virtual world style MMORPG's

- Wii - LOL, Wut?  My son has one, tossed it aside quite some time ago

- Flash games on Face book - Yeah, right....

- Smart phones / iPad - Oh, here's the phone, see above.

There are multiple ways for a gamer to get a fix.  In the past 3 years I have seen a trend of MMO's being packed for 3 months at launch then dying a quick death.  Players won't commit to an MMO long term if there is a sub.  There is always a new MMO on the horizon or a new console or game being released.

Well, maybe for "gamers' there are options, but for MMORPG "purists" such as myself, there really isn't.

My thread isn't a support thread for FTP / BTP btw.  Its about the changing gaming market and how subs are not justifiable anymore.

I play MMORPG's almost exclusively, and I normally only play one title at a time.  I also prefer to play them for a long period of time, years even if possible.

I will gladly play a sub fee, I currently pay 3 sub fees just to CCP alone for EVE and my maximum sub accounts at any one time was seven.

Still the best entertainment value for the money no matter how many fees I pay.  (Damn dinner and movie with the wife every weekend costs me roughly 75-100 bucks.)  And if I enjoyed playing golf, let's not even go there.

In fact, if somehow not wanting to pay sub fees would weed out the "tourists" from the genre so that developer might focus more on sub paying purists I'm all for it.

 

"The discrepancy between what we know is possible and what we currently have to choose from is beyond disappointing" - GeezerGamer
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Istavaan

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/25/12
Posts: 1398

10/19/12 2:30:11 PM#65
Originally posted by stux
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by JWTuna

And I really dont understand the hype about B2P. B2P is possibly the worst (not in the case of gw2, before you start fan-boying) system imagainable. You hand over a lump of money for a game that relies on ongoing servers/updates/fixes/etc, yet form no ongoing relationship with the developers. They have given you initial content, and owe you nothing beyond this...

But then they turn around and give you updates and ongoing support for free... how can they possibly afford to do that? Could it be that the profits are high enough from the original sale?... hmm... I wonder.

People are buying from the cash shop for many reasons giving them monthly income.  The way the game was made I would much rather pay for then have the destraction of being sold crap none stop.  Also, I am sure they will sell some expansions not for free...

So what if they are buying from the cash shop, you can still play the game without spending extra money on it. i can play the game anytime i want without worrying about should i sub or not, it's not a dust collector like all other sub based mmo's become.

  ste2000

Novice Member

Joined: 2/28/04
Posts: 4710

10/19/12 2:30:24 PM#66
I totally disagree with the OP. MMOs goes F2P because they are not built to keep the player attention for more than a month, AKA instant gratification is never a good idea if you want to keep player longer. Developers still don't get that unfortunately.
  Burntvet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/16/07
Posts: 2621

10/19/12 2:31:07 PM#67
Originally posted by Istavaan
Originally posted by stux
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by Istavaan
people are just conditioned to think mmo's should have a subscription fee, if  you asked someone who hasn't played an mmo what they think about paying 15 dollars a month for a game they already paid  60 dollars for, they'd simple say "are you high"..it's a scam and always has been.

Exactly. We bought into the scam when the infrastructure and bandwith cost a lot of money...but in 2012? Please...

The cost of making, fixing bugs/balancing/etc., and updating these are huge.

 

So many people here seem to think developers should work for free or someone else should pay for it.

 

Please......

 

Stop begging or stop playing.

 

 

I don't need to beg i can get an mmo now that has the same quality as an mmo that has a sub, it would be stupid of me to pay for something that i can get for free.

That only being the case because the so called "quality" F2P MMOs were P2P to begin with. Had they been envisioned as F2P from the go, they'd have never been made. And had they been successful, they'd have never been converted to F2P. F2P conversion is a measure of last resort, because all the other alternatives are worse.

Converted games are largely like buying something at the Goodwill store, yes, you can get it for almost nothing, but only because someone else paid for it already and got rid of it.

So techincally, you can sort of have AAA quality in a F2P game, but only after the game tanks.

Expecting AAA games to be "free" out of the gate or think they should be all be free outright is just silly.

 

  Istavaan

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/25/12
Posts: 1398

10/19/12 2:31:55 PM#68
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by chryses

In today's market there are:

- consoles - Don't play them.

- PC single player games like Skyrim - Rarely play them, but I did buy Skyrim, lasted about 2 weeks

- Hand held devices - You mean a phone, (or tablet) I use it for web surfing and, uh, calls. Not gaming

- dozens of MMO's - But few actual virtual world style MMORPG's

- Wii - LOL, Wut?  My son has one, tossed it aside quite some time ago

- Flash games on Face book - Yeah, right....

- Smart phones / iPad - Oh, here's the phone, see above.

There are multiple ways for a gamer to get a fix.  In the past 3 years I have seen a trend of MMO's being packed for 3 months at launch then dying a quick death.  Players won't commit to an MMO long term if there is a sub.  There is always a new MMO on the horizon or a new console or game being released.

Well, maybe for "gamers' there are options, but for MMORPG "purists" such as myself, there really isn't.

My thread isn't a support thread for FTP / BTP btw.  Its about the changing gaming market and how subs are not justifiable anymore.

I play MMORPG's almost exclusively, and I normally only play one title at a time.  I also prefer to play them for a long period of time, years even if possible.

I will gladly play a sub fee, I currently pay 3 sub fees just to CCP alone for EVE and my maximum sub accounts at any one time was seven.

Still the best entertainment value for the money no matter how many fees I pay.  (Damn dnner and movie with the wife every weekend costs me roughly 75-100 bucks.)

In fact, if somehow not wanting to pay sub fees would weed out the "tourists" from the genre so that developer might focus more on sub paying purists I'm all for it.

 

Tourist? what a shitty statement, yeah i know you've got that attitude that because you pay a sub fee you're better. enjoy paying money for something that i get for free.

  bag0glass

Novice Member

Joined: 3/13/12
Posts: 6

10/19/12 2:35:40 PM#69
I dont think game subscriptions are outdated,  they just need to change.  what about subscription for things other than game access?  what about for cosmetics?  like you get different skin sets every week or something.
  Istavaan

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/25/12
Posts: 1398

10/19/12 2:35:42 PM#70
Originally posted by Burntvet
Originally posted by Istavaan
Originally posted by stux
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by Istavaan
people are just conditioned to think mmo's should have a subscription fee, if  you asked someone who hasn't played an mmo what they think about paying 15 dollars a month for a game they already paid  60 dollars for, they'd simple say "are you high"..it's a scam and always has been.

Exactly. We bought into the scam when the infrastructure and bandwith cost a lot of money...but in 2012? Please...

The cost of making, fixing bugs/balancing/etc., and updating these are huge.

 

So many people here seem to think developers should work for free or someone else should pay for it.

 

Please......

 

Stop begging or stop playing.

 

 

I don't need to beg i can get an mmo now that has the same quality as an mmo that has a sub, it would be stupid of me to pay for something that i can get for free.

That only being the case because the so called "quality" F2P MMOs were P2P to begin with. Had they been envisioned as F2P from the go, they'd have never been made. And had they been successful, they'd have never been converted to F2P. F2P conversion is a measure of last resort, because all the other alternatives are worse.

Converted games are largely like buying something at the Goodwill store, yes, you can get it for almost nothing, but only because someone else paid for it already and got rid of it.

So techincally, you can sort of have AAA quality in a F2P game, but only after the game tanks.

Expecting AAA games to be "free" out of the gate or think they should be all be free outright is just silly.

 

GW2 is of the same quality as any sub based mmo so how can you justify a sub when arenanet can give you it for free, yes you may not like gw2 and thats fine, im sure you don't like every sub based mmo either..but they are all the bloody same, same concept just arranged differently.

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3524

10/19/12 2:35:43 PM#71
Originally posted by stux
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by Istavaan
people are just conditioned to think mmo's should have a subscription fee, if  you asked someone who hasn't played an mmo what they think about paying 15 dollars a month for a game they already paid  60 dollars for, they'd simple say "are you high"..it's a scam and always has been.

Exactly. We bought into the scam when the infrastructure and bandwith cost a lot of money...but in 2012? Please...

The cost of making, fixing bugs/balancing/etc., and updating these are huge.

 

So many people here seem to think developers should work for free or someone else should pay for it.

 

Please......

 

Stop begging or stop playing.

 

 

Everyone who works in the industry knows how high the profits are... Subs are nothing more than additional continuing profits. GW2 made enough money on the box sales to keep their team well-compensated and working for several years until thei next paid expansion comes out. That is true for any game that isn't a POS and is quickly forgotten.

 

Sub games take your initial money, collect the sub money AND charge you for the expansions. You're just buying into the thin "continuing costs" hype that can't be rationally justified... unless of course you think Blizzards ongoing WOW costs are $150,000,000 a month. If you do, I have a few items I'd like to sell you...you can even pay me monthly for them.

  Istavaan

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/25/12
Posts: 1398

10/19/12 2:37:37 PM#72
The subscription model is dead, some people don't like change but any new mmo that releases with a subscription is just asking for failure. if you were business savy at all you could see this changing climate.
  GrayGhost79

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/30/08
Posts: 4885

10/19/12 2:38:53 PM#73

As I've said in numerous other threads about this same subject as long as the game warrants the monthly fee then I'm fine with a monthly fee, if it does not then I am not. 

 

TSW - Not enough content or polish to constitute having a monthly fee at all.

GW2 - Could pull off a monthly fee for a few months but after that it wouldn't be warranted, thankfully went the buy to play route. 

WoW - tons of content and polished, monthly fee warranted. 

 

If a game warrants it then a monthly fee is fine, if it does not then these companies must seek an alternate source of revenue that doesn't infringe upon the enjoyment of players. Anet was pretty damn smart, they delivered a very well done game with a considerable amount of content but didn't tack on a monthly fee. Not only that but they did find an alternate source of income that doesn't enfringe on the enjoyment of its player base.

 

If you only have a months worth of content you can't feasibly consider charging a monthly fee, you shoot yourself in the foot like SWTOR and numerous others in the past have. This is the flaw in themeparks. You have to deliver enough rides and enough variety  to keep people entertained otherwise they are vistors. It's actually not a problem a true sandbox has, given enough freedom and tools these players will stay for the long haul making a monthly fee warranted. 

 

Either provide enough rides to warrant a monthly fee or provide a sandbox game with enough tools and freedom to warrant a monthly fee. If neither of these are done then you simply can not ask for a monthly fee. You will be forced to go free to play like so many others. 

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18345

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

10/19/12 2:39:45 PM#74
Originally posted by Istavaan
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by chryses

In today's market there are:

- consoles - Don't play them.

- PC single player games like Skyrim - Rarely play them, but I did buy Skyrim, lasted about 2 weeks

- Hand held devices - You mean a phone, (or tablet) I use it for web surfing and, uh, calls. Not gaming

- dozens of MMO's - But few actual virtual world style MMORPG's

- Wii - LOL, Wut?  My son has one, tossed it aside quite some time ago

- Flash games on Face book - Yeah, right....

- Smart phones / iPad - Oh, here's the phone, see above.

There are multiple ways for a gamer to get a fix.  In the past 3 years I have seen a trend of MMO's being packed for 3 months at launch then dying a quick death.  Players won't commit to an MMO long term if there is a sub.  There is always a new MMO on the horizon or a new console or game being released.

Well, maybe for "gamers' there are options, but for MMORPG "purists" such as myself, there really isn't.

My thread isn't a support thread for FTP / BTP btw.  Its about the changing gaming market and how subs are not justifiable anymore.

I play MMORPG's almost exclusively, and I normally only play one title at a time.  I also prefer to play them for a long period of time, years even if possible.

I will gladly play a sub fee, I currently pay 3 sub fees just to CCP alone for EVE and my maximum sub accounts at any one time was seven.

Still the best entertainment value for the money no matter how many fees I pay.  (Damn dnner and movie with the wife every weekend costs me roughly 75-100 bucks.)

In fact, if somehow not wanting to pay sub fees would weed out the "tourists" from the genre so that developer might focus more on sub paying purists I'm all for it.

 

Tourist? what a shitty statement, yeah i know you've got that attitude that because you pay a sub fee you're better. enjoy paying money for something that i get for free.

The term tourist has nothing to do with how you pay for MMORPG's, but how you play MMORPG's.  If you are more or less single focused like myself, you are a purist, if you are willing to play "games' of all sorts, I view you as a tourist (casual visitor) to the genre.

Nothing is free, someone is always paying for it, but many people fail to see how they are leeching off the system if they aren't paying their way.

edit: Oh yeah, because I pay a sub, I am better, at least in the eyes of the people who make these titles, I"m a paying customer, which is what they're after.

 

"The discrepancy between what we know is possible and what we currently have to choose from is beyond disappointing" - GeezerGamer
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Silok

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/22/06
Posts: 741

10/19/12 2:41:20 PM#75
Originally posted by chryses

MMO's are going to have to go to a FTP / BTP model otherwise they won't survive.

I totaly disagree with you, here. There is a lots of mmorpg with sub and they are doing fine. I prefer paying a sub for a good mmorpg than having a false f2p model or a b2p game that i will quit after 1 or 2 month cause there is nothing to do.

In 2001 I started playing MMO's and I happily paid a sub due to the lack of MMO's out there.  Not to mention virtually no competition from console or PC.  (Wii, smartphones, hand held devices didn't even exist!)

In today's market there are:

- consoles "irrelevant to mmo genre"

- PC single player games like Skyrim  "irrelevant to mmo genre"

- Hand held devices "irrelevant to mmo genre" huh what?

- dozens of MMO's "and most of them are boring"

- Wii "That not suppose to be in the console area?"

- Flash games on Face book "irrelevant to mmo genre and boring"

- Smart phones / iPad "irrelevant to mmo genre" and boring"

There are multiple ways for a gamer to get a fix.  In the past 3 years I have seen a trend of MMO's being packed for 3 months at launch then dying a quick death.  Players won't commit to an MMO long term if there is a sub.  There is always a new MMO on the horizon or a new console or game being released.

All these mmo didnt do well because of the game itself, the formula is simply a bad one for long term mmorpg. This has nothing to do with the sub. When a game goes f2p, at first you will see a rise in the population cause all the fp2 players decide to try it. Most of them quit the game when they realise they need to pay to continue the progression.

An MMO needs a lot of population or by its very nature it dies badly.  FTP / BTP is the only model that will work going forward and if companies insist on sticking with a sub model, then they have literally set themselves up to fail.

Completely false, this is exactly the prob these days, If an mmo doesnt have millions of subscribers most people consider it a failure. There is mmorpgs out there with sub and still have enough subscribers to bring money. Heck FFXI after 10, many expension and addons is still kicking, and will release a new expension.

The mmo market need a change in its formula not in its payment model.

My thread isn't a support thread for FTP / BTP btw.  Its about the changing gaming market and how subs are not justifiable anymore.

Talk for yourself, dont assume you can talk for everyone. Plenty of people are willing to pay a sub for a good mmorpg, just look all the threads about it in this forum. Heck there is a poll here where sub model withou cash shop win the race.

15$ a month for a good gaming experience is nothing, geez i even pay 50$ for a mmoRPG (yes i emphasis on the rpg) wich can keep my interest more then 1 or 2 month and not like the action mmo we have these days with this fast and solo hero thing.

 

 

  User Deleted
10/19/12 2:41:32 PM#76
Originally posted by Istavaan

GW2 is of the same quality as any sub based mmo so how can you justify a sub when arenanet can give you it for free, yes you may not like gw2 and thats fine, im sure you don't like every sub based mmo either..but they are all the bloody same, same concept just arranged differently.

That's just the thing - it's not.

It doesn't even come close, content wise - not even with the proposed updates.

 

  Istavaan

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/25/12
Posts: 1398

10/19/12 2:45:41 PM#77
Originally posted by nsignific
Originally posted by Istavaan

GW2 is of the same quality as any sub based mmo so how can you justify a sub when arenanet can give you it for free, yes you may not like gw2 and thats fine, im sure you don't like every sub based mmo either..but they are all the bloody same, same concept just arranged differently.

That's just the thing - it's not.

It doesn't even come close, content wise - not even with the proposed updates.

 

compared to what wow? which has been out for 8 years, come one man lets not be silly now.  if we are talking about swtor and rift then yes gw2 is of the same or even better quality.  You can't compare a game that has been out for 8 years to a game that is out for less than 3 months.

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3524

10/19/12 2:46:43 PM#78
Originally posted by nsignific
Originally posted by Istavaan

GW2 is of the same quality as any sub based mmo so how can you justify a sub when arenanet can give you it for free, yes you may not like gw2 and thats fine, im sure you don't like every sub based mmo either..but they are all the bloody same, same concept just arranged differently.

That's just the thing - it's not.

It doesn't even come close, content wise - not even with the proposed updates.

 

I beg to differ. Do you play it?

 

It is massive, has top of the line graphics and sound, well thought-out and relatively well-balanced classes, a story as good as any of them (that's not saying much, but whatever) and the best RvR since DAoC.

 

My level 85 Affliction Lock and Protection Pallys are both parked because I continue to enjoy GW2 and don't feel a need to upgrade to Pandaria... probably will eventually but GW2 is at least as enjoyable as WOW...if not more.

  Istavaan

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/25/12
Posts: 1398

10/19/12 2:47:12 PM#79
Originally posted by nsignific
Originally posted by Istavaan

GW2 is of the same quality as any sub based mmo so how can you justify a sub when arenanet can give you it for free, yes you may not like gw2 and thats fine, im sure you don't like every sub based mmo either..but they are all the bloody same, same concept just arranged differently.

That's just the thing - it's not.

It doesn't even come close, content wise - not even with the proposed updates.

 

it has the same amount of features or even more than most mmo's, this content thing is in your head, raiding does not equally the only content worthy of being called content. content starts at level 1.

  coretex666

Elite Member

Joined: 1/03/12
Posts: 1720

"I shall take your position into consideration"

10/19/12 2:47:52 PM#80
Originally posted by Istavaan
Originally posted by coretex666

I would pay 50 USD / month for a top quality game and I believe i am not alone.

Problem of recent P2P games is not the business model, but the fact that they lack quality to be profitable using it.

I disagree that it is an outdated model.

 

Because you believe because you are paying 50 dollars a month that you are going to get a higher quality experience, it's just not true you are just failing into the scam. it's your money though so i don't really care what you do with it. i know i won't be supporting sub based mmo's ever again.

No, I would be paying the money because I choose to. It's supply and demand. If they offer sufficient quality for which there would be demand at higher price, they would offer it at that price because it would result in higher profits which is the purpose of doing business.

You are not forced to pay that sub, you just have information that there is supply of such product at certain price and you decide whether you want to represent demand for that supply or not.

"Failing into the scam" is like saying you would pay the price because you are stupid...

 

Playing: Chronicle 1
Waiting for: None of the games already announced

My game concept thread: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/369707 (any feedback appreciated)

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