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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Smedley: "EverQuest Next will be the world's largest sandbox-style MMO ever made"

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  Apraxis

Elite Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1471

10/19/12 8:38:47 AM#121
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Well it can't be like eq1.

That's the original themepark.
The phrase didn't come about with wow, it started with EQ / daoc / Ao in comparison to uo.

Don't know how many times I'm going to say this but EQ1 is NOT a  themepark as we know them right now, in fact it's anything but a themepark. EQ, especially at the beginning, was a wasteland with thousands of mobs to grind and a few towns. The amount of quests was ridiculously low, and there was no guidance or direction whatsoever, no quest updates, no rails, nothing, just a world to grind in. EQ1 had the bare minimum for an MMO to function, grind based open world group play without any rails.

EQ1 is not a themepark like WoW, although EQ1 has changed a bit lately, and if you start the game now you will begin in TSS which is an expansion that is more themeparky, in general EQ1 isn't a themepark. Maybe it's not a pure sandbox either but calling it themepark is wrong.

WoW is 100000 times more themepark than EQ.

When SoE uses the word sandbox I think they are referring to ealy EQ1.

The themepark vs. sandbox discussion is as old as the UO vs. EQ discussion. And it was one arguement to seperate both design patterns.. but basicly it may even go back to MUDs.. but i dont know 100%.

EQ is the traditional Themepark, and back then as WoW was released, WoW was labeled an EQ clone for a reason. It took the classic themepark approach, and improved upon it. Or better it casualiesd it, made in much more casual friendly, and so on.. so from a standpoint of today you could EQ maybe call classic or hardcore themepark, or rough themepark, but it remains still a themepark. There is no whatsoever Sandbox feature in it.

Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by fenistil

Just because new themeparks are more railed, more gamey and overally more themeparky it does not mean that EQ1 was a sandbox.   It was still themepark.  Build around early concept of mmorpg that was about each server being separate community / world, but still a themepark.   Conceptually much better for me than 'framaworks for matchmaking systems' new themeparks became, but does not change that were also themeparks.

Just difftent kind of themepark.

What makes early EQ1 a themepark? It was a just a wasteland to grind in, what themepark elements did it have?

What makes EQ a themepark?

Because it is seperated in different themes. Every area is a new theme, with different level requirement and filled with different spots(attractions) in any of those areas(themes).

And in contrary to a sandbox you cant build up/destroy stuff in the persistent environment. In a themepark everything remains the same.. the spot of goblins will be a spot of goblins now and a year later.

  Rimmersman

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/15/12
Posts: 911

10/19/12 8:46:04 AM#122
Originally posted by Incomparable
Originally posted by Rimmersman
Originally posted by Incomparable
Originally posted by Rimmersman
Originally posted by Incomparable
I am concerned with how SOE tries to sell this mmo as a sand box, and what they think is good for the market with a history of sand box mmos failing. If they think by making a sand box mmo that is purely sand box and player created content only then it won't do well. It will still need epic bosses, npcs with alignment systems, advanced ai, questing, Mini games, and complex and rewarding combat. Those are not staple sand box features but are important enough to include. Also things like crafting, customization, are staples of sand box mmos... However rare items are not. Then there should be a balance of introducing rare items with unique uses, and stats but still fit with a sand box mmo... Since these kind of rewards are also great to encourage exploration. And I do hope it has the depth of sand box mmos, and enough otter non sand box content as well. Having missions to do is still important, and it being a pure sand box mmo takes away the feeling of being on a quest when getting rewards but instead macroing skills for end game. And it would be nice if there was quests and a skill point system like tsw, but a short trip to reach end game, and lvling is horizontal to acquire rewards in quests, not macros of chopping wood all the time, for end game. And usual, I prefer games to be for a mature audience since they can put content that makes the game more enjoyable without having to worry about ratings.

He said a sandbox type MMO, this to me means some kind of hybrid along the lines of Vanguard but with an up to date questing system and so forth. As long as people don't take his word as literally a sandbox their should not be any over the top expectations.

He did mention a way back that they are taking a more EQ/Vanguard approach, this could be the one that calls all the old EQ vets back home.

He also said the classes will be more akin to EQ than they are in EQ2, Vanguard classes share more in common with EQ than they do in EQ2.

 

Van guard is cool. But they said sand box so I'm guessing something more ambitious than van guard in terms of housing and large scale combat. Or am I getting over hyped?

Explain what you mean by housing and large scale combat plz mate.

 

An economy that revolves around controlling strategic locations by building cities or guild castles to have easier access to these points of interest. And these are areas that might be the housing for intents and purposes... but more about actual use than decoration, and it of course involves pvp. Possibly including destructible houses or just guild castles that are destructible. And new guilds castles can levy high taxes to try to force out existing players to sell their land or possibly other tools the devs can introduce to make the game have non instanced housing ( which might mean capacity is reached) that is fun and realistic that involves a player generated economy and destructible houses and/or guild castles. Also there should be ai/npc involved with the usages of these areas and how it affects the areas and npcs, since I believe npc alignment should play a major role in how it affects the world. Since we do a lot of quests for people it is essentially building favor for the area or even race which may be scattered, or even relocated affecting events in the world.

Hmm, i don't think they will go that far, let's not forget that EQ was always a PVE game with PVP a few PVP/GVG servers. Yes times have moved on but i really don't think they will have that much emphasis  on PvP. I might be wrong but if i'm not then their is always ArcheAge.

Hmm, i  just had a thought, perhaps they might go that far considering ArcheAge could be EQNext main competition 

  Lazzaro

Novice Member

Joined: 10/01/04
Posts: 392

Anything easy ain''t worth a damn.

 
OP  10/19/12 8:49:23 AM#123

Smedley:


I have to be honest with you. We have completely blown up the design of EverQuest Next. For the last year and a half we have been working on something we are not ready to show. Why did we blow up the design? The design was evolutionary. It was EverQuest III. It was something that was slightly better than what had come before it. It was slightly better.

What we are building is something that we will be very proud to call EverQuest. It will be the largest sandbox-style MMO ever designed. The same exciting content delivered in a new way. Something you've never seen before. The MMO world has never seen before. We didn't want more kill 10 rats quests. We didn't want more of the same. If you look at the MMOs out there, they're delivering the same content over and over again. So are we. We need to change that. When we released EverQuest, we changed the world. We want to do that again with a different type of game.


http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/10/19/soe-live-2012-smedley-says-eqnext-is-largest-sandbox-style-mmo/

  Nadia

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11491

10/19/12 8:50:01 AM#124

if you google mmo themepark - will be hardpressed to find any mention of it until 2002

in an interview, Garriott talks about the future of mmos

--he references the unreleased WOW and doesnt even mention EQ while talking about themeparks

http://www.gamesfirst.com/articles/aaron/garriott/garriott1.htm

Garriott: Game play dynamic. Well, one of the great things about solo player games is that you get to be the hero that saves the world. Every door you unlock, every feature you see, you experience it special as if you’re the first and only person who’s ever seen it…because you’re blissfully unaware of your next-door neighbor who’s playing the same game. The wonderful thing about an MMP is that you don’t have to go alone. You can actually go with your friends, which everyone has always wanted to do. The problem is that you can never get rid of everybody. Everybody is with you all the time, and so you go into a dungeon and people are qued up to kill the troll king and you just wait your turn. We’ve seen other people try to fix that, like Anarchy Online with their pocket spaces of your own completion area of the quest. I’ve heard World of Warcraft is doing sort of the same thing with solo player areas, but in my mind we’re actually doing something much more fundamental than that, which is that instead of creating this giant virtual world where -- though it’s cool to go, "Hey, our world is five square miles." -- it’s not much fun to get to your friend if you were to come online at different times and different places. We actually believe that the best games will be organized much more like a theme park.

In Disney World, if you think of the main area as the massively multiplayer space, where it’s very easy to find each other or get from one fun activity, called a ride, to another fun activity, and even if you’re on opposite sides of the park, you can get there quite expediently either by walking, or using the train, or in our case teleporters even to make it faster. But when you go on a ride at Disney World, like Pirates of the Caribbean, when you get on a boat, you become blissfully unaware of the other people on the other boats. You can still see them, and you occasionally bump into them, but if it were an instantiated activity, you wouldn’t, and if the Pirates of the Caribbean were a pirate battle instead of a passive boat ride, you could imagine that here we have a quite contained hub world where you go from one fun activity, you come back and say, "Haha, we had a great time on that ride. Let’s re-equip ourselves and see what else we want to do." You want a thirty-minute, short combat adventure, that’s over here. You want a four-hour quest of the avatar scenario that’s very intricate and complex because you’ve set aside time for tonight, then that’s over here.

  Zorgo

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2212

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

10/19/12 8:54:27 AM#125
Originally posted by Apraxis
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Well it can't be like eq1.

That's the original themepark.
The phrase didn't come about with wow, it started with EQ / daoc / Ao in comparison to uo.

Don't know how many times I'm going to say this but EQ1 is NOT a  themepark as we know them right now, in fact it's anything but a themepark. EQ, especially at the beginning, was a wasteland with thousands of mobs to grind and a few towns. The amount of quests was ridiculously low, and there was no guidance or direction whatsoever, no quest updates, no rails, nothing, just a world to grind in. EQ1 had the bare minimum for an MMO to function, grind based open world group play without any rails.

EQ1 is not a themepark like WoW, although EQ1 has changed a bit lately, and if you start the game now you will begin in TSS which is an expansion that is more themeparky, in general EQ1 isn't a themepark. Maybe it's not a pure sandbox either but calling it themepark is wrong.

WoW is 100000 times more themepark than EQ.

When SoE uses the word sandbox I think they are referring to ealy EQ1.

The themepark vs. sandbox discussion is as old as the UO vs. EQ discussion. And it was one arguement to seperate both design patterns.. but basicly it may even go back to MUDs.. but i dont know 100%.

EQ is the traditional Themepark, and back then as WoW was released, WoW was labeled an EQ clone for a reason. It took the classic themepark approach, and improved upon it. Or better it casualiesd it, made in much more casual friendly, and so on.. so from a standpoint of today you could EQ maybe call classic or hardcore themepark, or rough themepark, but it remains still a themepark. There is no whatsoever Sandbox feature in it.

Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by fenistil

Just because new themeparks are more railed, more gamey and overally more themeparky it does not mean that EQ1 was a sandbox.   It was still themepark.  Build around early concept of mmorpg that was about each server being separate community / world, but still a themepark.   Conceptually much better for me than 'framaworks for matchmaking systems' new themeparks became, but does not change that were also themeparks.

Just difftent kind of themepark.

What makes early EQ1 a themepark? It was a just a wasteland to grind in, what themepark elements did it have?

What makes EQ a themepark?

Because it is seperated in different themes. Every area is a new theme, with different level requirement and filled with different spots(attractions) in any of those areas(themes).

And in contrary to a sandbox you cant build up/destroy stuff in the persistent environment. In a themepark everything remains the same.. the spot of goblins will be a spot of goblins now and a year later.

Everquest was like a themepark under construction. All the rides were there (dungeons and linear quests); but they hadn't put in the sidewalks or signs and none of the employees (quest givers) had name tags.

So this made everquest like a sandbox. You had a linear progression, you had thematic rides - but you wandered around to hopefully stumble into it. I'd say this was true up until PoP. After PoP, I would say that EQ was nearly every bit a linear themepark as WoW. Because by that time, they had made several changes to their game based on Blizzard's activities.

WoW took the park, paved the sidewalks, put name tags on the employees, through up signs and gave you a map to find the rides. This is what most people referred to as WoW's 'streamlining' or 'improvement' upon the EQ system.

Central to the issue, imo, is not theme vs. sand. It is challenge. EQ always was more challenging then WoW. Even after PoP; the flagging, quest lines and boss encounters were all difficult to achieve. Vanilla WoW players talk about how back in their day, it was more challenging - with quest lines necessary to open dungeons and boss difficulty much higher. But they forget that even in it's extreme days, WoW was still an 'easier' version of EQ.

The central thing I hope for in EQNext is a challenging game. More so even then sand vs. theme. A long term game. A game where I don't have a goal for the night, but a goal for the month. A game which gives me the tools to become a hero, but where I am not a hero by default. But mostly. I want it to be 'MY' character - not the dev's character they allow me to play. Hopefully this is what we'll get.

  halflife25

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/13/12
Posts: 787

10/19/12 8:57:07 AM#126
Topics like these and posts above me shows that there is no definitive definition for MMO terms like themepark or sandbox set in stone. So it is always amusing to see people trying to present their opinions or interpretations as some facts or truth.
  Zorgo

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2212

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

10/19/12 9:01:04 AM#127
Originally posted by halflife25
Topics like these and posts above me shows that there is no definitive definition for MMO terms like themepark or sandbox set in stone. So it is always amusing to see people trying to present their opinions or interpretations as some facts or truth.

Was all my opinion based on my own observations. Someone asked a question, and that's what I think about it.

I'm open to others opinions and I often change my mind when presented with opposing facts.

If my post came off as anything but my opinion, I apologize. But should I apologize? You found it amusing. And all I really want is to make you smile......

  Nadia

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11491

10/19/12 9:02:00 AM#128
Originally posted by Zorgo

Everquest was like a themepark under construction. All the rides were there (dungeons and linear quests); but they hadn't put in the sidewalks or signs and none of the employees (quest givers) had name tags.

So this made everquest like a sandbox. You had a linear progression, you had thematic rides - but you wandered around to hopefully stumble into it. I'd say this was true up until PoP. After PoP, I would say that EQ was nearly every bit a linear themepark as WoW. Because by that time, they had made several changes to their game based on Blizzard's activities.

you are aware POP released in 2002 -- 2 years before WOW?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EverQuest:_The_Planes_of_Power

EQ had 2 more expansions preWOW, GoD and OOW

i dont recall EQ being influenced by Blizzard until WOW released -- SOE was too focused on EQ2

 

Blizzard did not recruit Tigole and his friends until 2002

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Kaplan_%28game_designer%29

 

  Phry

Elite Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 5249

10/19/12 9:07:31 AM#129
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Ripostethis
Not enough funding to make it a big theme park mmo like Everquest 2 was. Will be something like GW2 , sounds like it will suck and be boring if you are into PVE, but will be based on pvp.

Haha what? How did you reach this conclusion?

Not enough funding? SoE is one of the most successful MMO companies out there. They had the funds to develop Planetside 2's engine from scratch (and it is an AMAZING engine). And how will it be like sandbox? GW2 is the opposite of a sanbox.

And why does sandbox mean PvP? SWG was PvE oriented, as was Asheron's Call.

Christ.

not sure how you come to the conclusion about SOE being 'successful' .. over half a decade since that was true, and as part of SONY, which btw, is now into its 5th straight year of turning a loss..  funding might just be an issue, a pretty big one tbh, which may well drive them to release games ahead of time in the hope that they can make some money and 'patch it on the fly' so to speak..  maybe its time the SOE decision making team started taking councilling from gamblers anonymous...  just saying

  Apraxis

Elite Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1471

10/19/12 9:08:19 AM#130
Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by Phry
Originally posted by Loke666

Both Rockstar and Bethesda have said that making sandboxes actually cost more. Creating tools for players is not so easy as it sounds, UO already showed that and Lord Brittish have talked a lot about all weird consequenses freedom actually have in a game.

What is cheaper is patching in new content, since the players themselves do a lot of the work but the launchcost will not be lower just because you make a sandbox, no matter what Goblinworks have said.

Sandbox games are supposed to be like tool boxes, which is why Eve has worked so well, CCP 'went with the flow' they let the players choose how the game evolved, maybe its because their a bit closer to their game than others are, when you introduce 'freedom' into a game, then yes, weird things do happen, but i guess thats because when Devs plan game which they envision maybe 3 seperate paths to follow, players will almost always choose the 4th. Themepark games have had their day, but their getting old, very very old. More players now are probably ready for more 'sandboxy' style of gameplay, even if they don't realise it yet, what they want and perhaps, what they need may not be the same thing, can SOE do it though, doubtful, after seeing how dreadful Planetside 2 is shaping up to be, i really have to wonder if SOE can succeed in the MMO market on any level anymore

They sure are but the problem is that creating those tools take a lot more work than most people assume. That is exactly what Bethesda and Rockstar said in interviews about it and I have a feeling that creating the tolls for a MMO is way more work than for a single player game.

SOE could reuse stuff from SWG to cut production cost  but I have my doubts about that they will, I think they will botch up the whole project.

As for people being more ready for sandbox now, I think that they always have been, it is just that few good sandbox MMOs have existed. I wouldnt really say that themeparks are too old and tired though, MMO themeparks are just 1 1/2 years older than MMO sandboxes (M59, UO). Themeparks problems is more that they have been far too similar for a too long time.

Any good MMO will always get in money, no matter if it is a themepark or a sandbox. However do it need both fun gameplay and good programming. The reason Wow ganked EQ2 was not really that Wow was more fun but because it was so better much programmed (ok, 5 times the budget didnt hurt either).

If SOE either trained up their programmers since last time or hired in someone really good they can actually pull this off. If not they will just add another small MMO to an increasingly long list of smaller F2P games.

Sandboxe more expensive than Themepark:

It really depends on different assumtions, and how much quality of production you will have.

SWTOR was/is the most expensive MMORPG ever created, and that was because of the full voice acting and hundreds of cutscenes. IT is a lot of work, and withit very expensive. To create content this way, the created content beomes extremely expensive.. so in assumption you dont have this in a sandbox, a sandbox would be actually not that expensive.

But on the other side, if you go for a very high quality production in a sandbox, you have to do some Voice acting anyways. A sandbox is not perse without any kind of content or story within a world. UO was never an empty world. You got a whole lot of NPCs and story within the game world. Just not the linear approach of it. With other words, a high quality production would also include a lot of voice acting and stuff. Not so much as in a themepark, but more then enough.

The point were a sandbox is more expensive, and especially more difficult is the technology. You have to do more or less all engines by yourself. There are not sandbox engine toolsets, like it is with themeparks at the moment.

Another problem is, that you cant foresee a lot of situations and developments within your environment(the game world), and you have to think ahead a lot of different things, and a lot of problems will arise out of that. This is risky and expensive with it.

IF you assume a sandbox have to be full persistent(non instanced), have to be seamless(no visible zones) is another point for cutting edge technology in your net code and graphic engine. They have to be highly scaleable and adabtable, and you have to do a lot of tricks to overcome some technology limits. This will require expensive technology research. Because, you can not just do it(as with most themepark engines), you have to do it, test it, redo it, and test it again, with a lot of testers, to do it right. This will be expensive.

Then you have to create a lot of other tools, to enable players to create content. None of them are required in a themepark. If you want to do it right, you have to do a lot of high quality production tutorials, with storypath and voice acting, to introduce the more casual player into those sandbox tools. ( And this one wasnt done before.. but in all honestly we got only two AAA Sandboxes anyways.. UO and SWG and both are from another time)

So.. with other words. The production, especially if you want to do a high quality production of a Sandbox, it will be initially more expensive then a themepark. Overtime it becomes most probably less expensive, because you dont need to rush out as many content as with a themepark, and the longevity is much higher(better longterm revenue).

But on the other side a lot of risk with the initial investion, because you cant predict as well how many player you will attract. As already said, the last AAA sandbox was SWG 10 years ago.

Reuse of old technology(SWG):

It is in most cases just not possible. The technology changes very fast. All this code is more or less ancient, and it would be most probably more expensive to upgrade that old code, than to rewrite it from scratch.

Advantage of experience with SWG:

But you could reuse the experience from a former sandbox like SWG. But the question is, how many SWG developer are still there. How many are actually working nowadays for SOE? Not a lot i guess. And experience wears out over time anyways.. so  i dont know how much value they really have in this department.

Finally:

We will see what SOE will be able to deliver. Will it be a real sandbox? Will it be a real high value production? However it will turns out, it is a good sign for me, that more and more developer are going the sandbox route. And now even some major company join that path. Maybe we will finally see the genre moving forward instead of backwards in term of gameplay features.

  halflife25

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/13/12
Posts: 787

10/19/12 9:11:22 AM#131
Originally posted by Zorgo
Originally posted by halflife25
Topics like these and posts above me shows that there is no definitive definition for MMO terms like themepark or sandbox set in stone. So it is always amusing to see people trying to present their opinions or interpretations as some facts or truth.

Was all my opinion based on my own observations. Someone asked a question, and that's what I think about it.

I'm open to others opinions and I often change my mind when presented with opposing facts.

If my post came off as anything but my opinion, I apologize. But should I apologize? You found it amusing. And all I really want is to make you smile......

By amusig i didn't mean to say that i am laughign at you or soemthing. it is just that you guys put too much effort into it and take the whole sandbox and themepark terms toos eriously. I bet that people who coined thse terms wouldn't have a precise definition for these terms considering how ever changing and evolving whole MMO scene is.

  CalmOceans

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 1822

10/19/12 9:11:28 AM#132
Originally posted by Apraxis

The themepark vs. sandbox discussion is as old as the UO vs. EQ discussion. And it was one arguement to seperate both design patterns.. but basicly it may even go back to MUDs.. but i dont know 100%.

EQ is the traditional Themepark, and back then as WoW was released, WoW was labeled an EQ clone for a reason.

And in contrary to a sandbox you cant build up/destroy stuff in the persistent environment. In a themepark everything remains the same.. the spot of goblins will be a spot of goblins now and a year later.

WoW was nothing like EQ, did you play EQ?

WoW is completely based on quest progression, EQ is completely based on grind progression.

Everquest had almost no quests, WoW is chock full of quests.

WOW allows you to solo on every class, EQ allows you to only solo on very few select classes.

WoW is completely on rails, EQ opens up a whole world with many choices the minute you leave your starting city.

WoW guides you to every zone, EQ didn't tell you where to go whatsoever.

WoW doesn't used static camps like EQ does.

People who claim EQ is like WoW never played EQ1, you can stop pretending.

Did WoW take some elements of EQ? Sure, is WoW comparable to EQ in terms of gameplay? No, not at all.

Vanguard is the only game I know that  cames somewhat close to EQ but it's still miles from what EQ is like, WoW is a different game altogether.

 

And since when do you need to be able to destroy things for a game to qualify as a sandbox.

 

I don't care if you want to say EQ is a sandbox or a themepark, but stop comparing EQ and WoW like they are similar games, they were and are completely different games, anyone who says they are clones has never played EQ.

  Zorgo

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2212

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

10/19/12 9:13:27 AM#133
Originally posted by Nadia
Originally posted by Zorgo

Everquest was like a themepark under construction. All the rides were there (dungeons and linear quests); but they hadn't put in the sidewalks or signs and none of the employees (quest givers) had name tags.

So this made everquest like a sandbox. You had a linear progression, you had thematic rides - but you wandered around to hopefully stumble into it. I'd say this was true up until PoP. After PoP, I would say that EQ was nearly every bit a linear themepark as WoW. Because by that time, they had made several changes to their game based on Blizzard's activities.

you are aware POP released in 2002 -- 2 years before WOW?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EverQuest:_The_Planes_of_Power

i dont recall EQ being influenced by Blizzard until WOW released -- SOE was too focused on EQ2

Oops sorry. It's early.

In my head 'the past' is like a sandbox, and I should remember that before I act like it is a linear themepark.

  Yamota

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6508

"I fight so you don't have to."

10/19/12 9:14:40 AM#134
Wasn't Smedley the guy who was responsible for transforming SWG to ThemePark from Sandbox which lead to it's eventual failure? If so I would not believe one word from this guy in regards to sandbox.

  Rimmersman

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/15/12
Posts: 911

10/19/12 9:17:07 AM#135
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by Apraxis

The themepark vs. sandbox discussion is as old as the UO vs. EQ discussion. And it was one arguement to seperate both design patterns.. but basicly it may even go back to MUDs.. but i dont know 100%.

EQ is the traditional Themepark, and back then as WoW was released, WoW was labeled an EQ clone for a reason.

And in contrary to a sandbox you cant build up/destroy stuff in the persistent environment. In a themepark everything remains the same.. the spot of goblins will be a spot of goblins now and a year later.

WoW was nothing like EQ, did you play EQ?

WoW is completely based on quest based progression, EQ is completely based on grind progression.

Everquest has almost no quests, WoW is chock full of quests.

WOW allows you to solo on every class, EQ allows you to only solo on very few select classes.

WoW is completely on rails, EQ opens up a whole world with many choices the minute you leave your starting city.

WoW guides you to every zone, EQ didn't tell you where to go whatsoever.

WoW doesn't used static camps like EQ does.

People who claim EQ is like WoW never played EQ1, you can stop pretending.

Did WoW take some elements of EQ? Sure, is WoW comparable to EQ in terms of gameplay? No, not at all.

 

And since when do you need to be able to destroy things for a game to qualify as a sandbox.

On top of that, some zones you could not even get to unless you hitched a ride with a Wizard or Druid. Not until POP did travelling from one zone to another really open up.

Yeah i could not figure where he got that assumption, i don't think he even played EQ.

  Zorgo

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2212

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

10/19/12 9:18:34 AM#136
Originally posted by Yamota
Wasn't Smedley the guy who was responsible for transforming SWG to ThemePark from Sandbox which lead to it's eventual failure? If so I would not believe one word from this guy in regards to sandbox.

Responsible for the transformation, but not the decision to do so. 

LucasArts I believe most people blame for the directive.

  cheyane

Elite Member

Joined: 7/17/09
Posts: 2392

10/19/12 9:19:45 AM#137

I actually loved Everquest and Everquest 2 and I am not a SWG grudge holder so I have no problems with SOE. I am really looking forward to Everquest next. 

 

Everquest the original never lived up to its name it hardly had any quest so if EQnext carries on that tradition it would be fine.

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  Rimmersman

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/15/12
Posts: 911

10/19/12 9:20:44 AM#138
Originally posted by Yamota
Wasn't Smedley the guy who was responsible for transforming SWG to ThemePark from Sandbox which lead to it's eventual failure? If so I would not believe one word from this guy in regards to sandbox.

Yes he did but it's old news and water under the bridge, did you play SWG or are you just going on what you have heard.

The order was given and Smed acted.

And as much as SWG was an open MMO it was not a complete sandbox MMO.

  Nephaerius

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/18/09
Posts: 1465

10/19/12 9:26:15 AM#139
I'll believe it when I see it.  Let's not get the hype train going already.

Twitter: @Nephaerius
Steam: Neph
Xbox 360 GT: Nephaerius

  Greymantle4

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/07
Posts: 743

10/19/12 9:29:58 AM#140
Breaking News just in Blizzard announces their new MMO will be even a bigger Sandbox than EQNext. Let the battle begin :P All kidding aside maybe there is hope I will get to see a triple A sandbox before I die. :) I hope they do housing like SWG and make it a crafted economy with player shops. 
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