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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Smedley: "EverQuest Next will be the world's largest sandbox-style MMO ever made"

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872 posts found
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

10/20/12 1:31:41 PM#301
Because the whole bloody point of a sandbox is you can go where you want when you want. As soon as you have gear fated content. IT'S NOT A SANDBOX
  Nitth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 3458

Magic Propels my Rolly Chair.

10/20/12 1:35:02 PM#302


Originally posted by ShakyMo
Because the whole bloody point of a sandbox is you can go where you want when you want. As soon as you have gear fated content. IT'S NOT A SANDBOX

Who holds the rights to the universal definition of a sandbox?


TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  CalmOceans

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 1947

10/20/12 1:35:44 PM#303
Originally posted by Rimmersman

True, i remember when LDON introduced instances to EQ. I liked it the way it was but things move on, it's one of the reasons i still get my kicks in Vanguard now and again. It's way closer to the old systems of EQ than EQ2 could ever be.

I would have continued Vanguard if the population was bigger, Vanguard's dungeons were great, I have never played a game that felt so open and wide as Vanguard.

  odinsrath

Novice Member

Joined: 11/29/10
Posts: 839

10/20/12 1:40:17 PM#304

well i have my fingers and toes crossed that its a good solid mmorpg..there just really isnt any out there anymore but im not giving my hopes up..and stil praying for arche age

  Dreamo84

Defender of Worlds

Joined: 5/20/04
Posts: 3187

I actually still like MMORPGs

10/20/12 1:48:39 PM#305

You know what? Everyone has by dying for some big company to put the money out there to develope a real sandbox MMO.

I am honestly not surprised that SoE is taking that risk. They take risks with every MMO they make. I applaud them for it whether it works out good or not.

 

  Rimmersman

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/15/12
Posts: 911

10/20/12 1:48:57 PM#306
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by Rimmersman

True, i remember when LDON introduced instances to EQ. I liked it the way it was but things move on, it's one of the reasons i still get my kicks in Vanguard now and again. It's way closer to the old systems of EQ than EQ2 could ever be.

I would have continued Vanguard if the population was bigger, Vanguard's dungeons were great, I have never played a game that felt so open and wide as Vanguard.

Yeah pop is problem, EQNext might just save us from the endless serving of  glorified co-op crusade devs are on now.

  Burntvet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/16/07
Posts: 2800

10/20/12 1:54:40 PM#307
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by OG_Zorvan
Originally posted by Aelious
Originally posted by Burntvet
/snip

What he said is substantially correct.

Smed bought the rights to Vanguard, a game that had spent at least $25 mil on development allegedly for $3 mil. (This was after McQuaid was absent for several months in the run up to launch, allegedly due to prescription drug abuse issues).

The game was 80%-85% or so complete when SOE bought it, after McQuaid's company went under and laid off 3/4 of the people working there, only retaining a small percentage to "get the game out the door". SOE paid for several more months of development.

Regretably for people that actually liked vanguard, the game still needed another 6-12 months of dev time to work well when it was released.  Many, many things were not working well or broken at launch, or missing. Also, the code was so badly optimized that the game was almost unplayable for anyone not running a top end rig, and it was that way a long while.

The threads from launch time are still in the forums here, should you care to read up on that time.

 

But to answer the question: Smed bought Vanguard because: 1. He did not want a "new" game in direct competiton to EQ2 (which SOE had invested a ton of money in) and 2. Vanguard was cheap to buy.

It was very clear that SOE never really cared much about Vanguard, as over the years, it went down to one or zero full time devs, from time to time, and there are or were still bugs in there from launch.

 

Do you have proof to substantiate any of this or is this just "common knowledge"? It's one thing to play conspiracy theorist with motives which can result in a few outcomes.  If you're going to put hard numbers up though show the goods and if you're going to bring up a rumor about someone's alleged substance abuse you damn sure better have something to back it up.

And anyone with more than two brain cells in their cranium can see that SOE did their very best to bury Vanguard as soon as they took it over after Microsoft bailed. Vanguard was a direct competitor to EQ2.; SOE removed that competition by buying the game, getting it to bare minimum standards for release,  shoveling it onto Station Pass, then gutting the dev team to less than a handful of people and letting the game rot with almost no updates for years. EQ2 being long in the tooth and EQNext being released next year is the only reason SOE decided to pull Vanguard from the virtual gutter long enough to retool the game for F2P.

 That doesn't even make sense.  Soe paid first spent money on the game as a publisher, then spnet money to buy the game, then spent money on a dev team and 2 years to try and repair the game.  You don't spend that kind of money and spendan time trying to fix it just to run it into the ground. 

Fact is Vanguard was never a threat to the EQ series.  After Sigl released the game (Soe did not own it on release) the game crashed hard.  At best after that it was doomed to NIche.  SoE picked it up cheap and hoped to make some small amount of money off it and have a game they could add to their other small titles.

However there comes a time when it just doesn't make any more sense to throw money at a sinking project.  Despite spending quite a bit of time and money on the game there was no increase in population

As someone else stated, "There comes a time when you've spent too much money and you are getting little to no return, you just have to stop spending more money into it. SOE not only bailed Sigil and just so it could even launch, it gave Vanguard more development time when Sigil ran out of money. Then they bought it and spent the 2 years after release staffing the game with developers, coders, programmers, graphic artists, animators, etc.. just to tweak, fix, and finish the game off.

To suggest SOE threw this game in the garbage is turning a blind eye on just how bad of a shape this game was in, and how little players it had from the very beginning and how many left the game during the first year. Again, if it was your money funding this game before and after launch, you would've dumped it a long time ago. Because nobody would be willing to operate at a loss for such a long time, only companies that can do it are like SOE with several games in their lineup that could pickup the tabs."

It makes perfect sense, if you consider that Smed didn't really know what a mess Vanguard/Sigil was when he bought it.

I am sure it was represented as "mostly done, almost ready for lauch, etc. etc." and as mentioned, Smed knew he could get the game for a song, dump it on the Station Pass (which was SOE's big money maker back then) and control its destiny, instead of having a new competitor to EQ2, at a time when WoW was kicking the azz of everything, and one reason EQ2 never did as well as Smed wanted.

Smed thought he was getting a good deal, but he bought a "pig in a poke" without knowing what he was buying. (Awww, poor Smed).

 

Yes, SOE contined to fund the minor development of Vanguard, simply because they owned it, at that point, and it was fodder for Station Pass.

But after the inital pass at getting it in "playable shape" (which they barely did) almost nothing in the way of meaniful updates was done for years, going down to part time devs only for a long while.

Good money after bad? Maybe. But SOE/Smed has never been known to have good business judgement...

 

  Olgark

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/20/10
Posts: 303

10/20/12 2:57:57 PM#308

As soon as you put in guild rewards and raid proggressions it stops being a sandbox. A sandbox MMO must have an economy driven by the players and I don't mean in the sense of a auction house.

The reason Ultima Online is such a hit is that there are no classes (there maybe no with a set of skills.) but your not tied to them for ever. Eve Online is a hit due to its massive pvp and ability for players to shape the game world, both of these MMO's have player driven markets.

When you introduce a auction house, raids and classes/levels the game stops being a sandbox. Rift MMO is not a sandbox game for your information. Its just gives players a freedom to have different skill sets within a class.

The Secret World is a sandbox as there are no levels or classes involved. Yes you gain exp to unlock skills/abilities, but your not stuck playing a certain type of priest or warrior etc.

Eve Online is about the truest sandbox mmo out there at the moment, and its one of the best MMOs to boot. Because CCP listen to the players.

SOE has a horrid history of not listening to the players and yes I will hold the SWG fiasco over their heads and will judge them by that failure. As I will judge BioWare for the failure of SWTOR, DA:2 and ME3.

I was on the forums weeks before the NGE went live and read a lot of threads and posts from players begging SOE not to go ahead with the patch. SOE didn't listen then so why will they listen now ?

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

10/20/12 3:05:57 PM#309
Lol tsw isn't a sandbox. It just has a leveling system borrowed from sand boxes, everything else is pure thempark, wow style instance grind endgame and all.
  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

10/20/12 3:15:35 PM#310
Originally posted by Nitth

Who holds the rights to the universal definition of a sandbox?

Anyone who can grab a sign and climb atop the soap box.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  rungard

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1037

The Sandbox Foundation does not exist!

10/20/12 3:40:59 PM#311
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Because the whole bloody point of a sandbox is you can go where you want when you want. As soon as you have gear fated content. IT'S NOT A SANDBOX

 so if i have a game that has raids, and the result of these raids are magic items my guild can use to improve the guild, and say we take down a dragon, and we get a giant fire crystal. Lets say this giant fire crystal can be used to create a flamethrower turrets on a castles wall.

this is not a sandbox?

say i join a npc guild with my ranger, and i help that npc guild with my RANGER<---a class, and as a result i help develop the npc guild and build a great ranger stronghold where there was nothing before.

this is not a sandbox?

i think your view of a sandbox is far to pure to be useful. Sandbox is all about building and creation, but it must be kept fleible enough to ensure that its also a good game and not a complete simulator.

Perhaps we should stop using the term sandbox and use world instead.  World is obviously a far more useful and flexible term.

 

  erictlewis

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/08/08
Posts: 3059

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results.

10/20/12 3:48:14 PM#312
Originally posted by rungard
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Because the whole bloody point of a sandbox is you can go where you want when you want. As soon as you have gear fated content. IT'S NOT A SANDBOX

 so if i have a game that has raids, and the result of these raids are magic items my guild can use to improve the guild, and say we take down a dragon, and we get a giant fire crystal. Lets say this giant fire crystal can be used to create a flamethrower turrets on a castles wall.

this is not a sandbox?

say i join a npc guild with my ranger, and i help that npc guild with my RANGER<---a class, and as a result i help develop the npc guild and build a great ranger stronghold where there was nothing before.

this is not a sandbox?

i think your view of a sandbox is far to pure to be useful. Sandbox is all about building and creation, but it must be kept fleible enough to ensure that its also a good game and not a complete simulator.

Perhaps we should stop using the term sandbox and use world instead.  World is obviously a far more useful and flexible term.

 

Do you even know what the term NPC means??   Non Player Character and your going to join a non player character guild??  No such thing exist in eq, or eq2.   That is about one of the silliest thing I heard in a long time, join an NPC guild lol.  I gues syouwould be the only one talking in guild chat.  

  DSWBeef

Novice Member

Joined: 8/11/09
Posts: 792

10/20/12 4:09:58 PM#313
Originally posted by erictlewis
Originally posted by rungard
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Because the whole bloody point of a sandbox is you can go where you want when you want. As soon as you have gear fated content. IT'S NOT A SANDBOX

 so if i have a game that has raids, and the result of these raids are magic items my guild can use to improve the guild, and say we take down a dragon, and we get a giant fire crystal. Lets say this giant fire crystal can be used to create a flamethrower turrets on a castles wall.

this is not a sandbox?

say i join a npc guild with my ranger, and i help that npc guild with my RANGER<---a class, and as a result i help develop the npc guild and build a great ranger stronghold where there was nothing before.

this is not a sandbox?

i think your view of a sandbox is far to pure to be useful. Sandbox is all about building and creation, but it must be kept fleible enough to ensure that its also a good game and not a complete simulator.

Perhaps we should stop using the term sandbox and use world instead.  World is obviously a far more useful and flexible term.

 

Do you even know what the term NPC means??   Non Player Character and your going to join a non player character guild??  No such thing exist in eq, or eq2.   That is about one of the silliest thing I heard in a long time, join an NPC guild lol.  I gues syouwould be the only one talking in guild chat.  

By guild i think he means a faction of some sorts.

Playing: War Thunder, World of Warcraft, and Grim Dawn
Waiting on:Everquest Next and The Black Desert

  rungard

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1037

The Sandbox Foundation does not exist!

10/20/12 4:10:15 PM#314
Originally posted by erictlewis
Originally posted by rungard
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Because the whole bloody point of a sandbox is you can go where you want when you want. As soon as you have gear fated content. IT'S NOT A SANDBOX

 so if i have a game that has raids, and the result of these raids are magic items my guild can use to improve the guild, and say we take down a dragon, and we get a giant fire crystal. Lets say this giant fire crystal can be used to create a flamethrower turrets on a castles wall.

this is not a sandbox?

say i join a npc guild with my ranger, and i help that npc guild with my RANGER<---a class, and as a result i help develop the npc guild and build a great ranger stronghold where there was nothing before.

this is not a sandbox?

i think your view of a sandbox is far to pure to be useful. Sandbox is all about building and creation, but it must be kept fleible enough to ensure that its also a good game and not a complete simulator.

Perhaps we should stop using the term sandbox and use world instead.  World is obviously a far more useful and flexible term.

 

Do you even know what the term NPC means??   Non Player Character and your going to join a non player character guild??  No such thing exist in eq, or eq2.   That is about one of the silliest thing I heard in a long time, join an NPC guild lol.  I gues syouwould be the only one talking in guild chat.  

 me and all the other players, who play rangers that joined. Why does a guild have to be the exclusive domain of players? Can we not have a faction in a game that behaves somewhat like a player guild, just without all the drama of player leadership?

Eq had factions, and some of those factions had leaders, can we not expand them to allow players to participate in them? Can we not also allow them to grow through players actions in a sandbox style game?

i think we can. If Mr Smedley is half smart i hope he will see what a great feature the faction system of eq was and do something to make it a more interactive part of the game.

 

  Draemos

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/20/10
Posts: 1477

10/20/12 4:23:02 PM#315
Just wanted to point out that sandboxes are cheaper to develope than themeparks, for those of you that keep trumpeting funding as an issue.
  Vorthanion

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1966

10/20/12 4:30:02 PM#316
Originally posted by Olgark
SOE can't make a decent sandbox game they proved it with the mess up that was SWG and their NGE patch.

The only reason why the CU and NGE happened is due to the fact that their sandbox game was hemorrhaging subscriptions and they panicked.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 6122

10/20/12 4:36:24 PM#317
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by ShakyMo
It's not. Tiered raiding endgame is the OPPOSITE of sandbox. They can't cost in the same game. As soon as you add item sets you need to gather before you can move into a next tier of content that let's you grind another set that let's you do a further tier etc.. ad infinitum with expansions. The game ceases to be a sandbox.

why?

As long as they don't make the quipment "bind on equip" and allow players to sell it, I don't see any reason they can't add special encounters that require specific efforts to obtain them.

not everything has to be crafted. As long as they allow crafters to create different but competitive armor/weapon types then I can see it adding variety.

I think that trying to shoe entire games into a themepark or sandbox definition is inaccurate.  Some elements can be either and the game can genrally be categorized or called a hybrid, but to say that it is all or nothing just misses the mark to me.

I don't think gated content is necessarily a themepark only feature.  It depends on how that is implemented.  If the only way to get the best stuff is through a pre-defined series of events (raids in this example) then that portion is definitely a ride (aka themepark).  I don't think gear has to be crafted in order to be sandbox, but like you said, it should necessarily be automatically bound.

If the gating items were available through a variety of means (crafting, drops, dungeons/raids, trading) then I would consider that system sandboxy even if some of the options to obtain the gear were themepark (scripted instanced raids).

I know we all can't ever agree on definitions of anything, but here are how I define those:

Sandbox:  The player has diverse options in accomplishing the task/goal.  They can choose a single option or combine multiple avenues to get where they want.  The desired task doesn't necessarily have to have an end or be limited, but and end to the task doesn't preclude it from being sandboxy.  Keywords and tricky phrases here are: unrestricted, open, and multiple paths to completion.

Themepark:  The activity or system is clearly defined in a ridid manner that the players cannot affect.  Players "must be this high" to ride (they have to meet entry requirements) and must play essentially the same way every time they engage the system.  Keywords and tricky phrases here are: restricted, guided, defined, closed, and limited options to completion.

Even if you don't agree with my definitions, at least you know what I mean when I refer to those systems.

Curse you AquaScum!

  Drevar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/25/04
Posts: 140

10/20/12 4:38:38 PM#318

$100 says Smedley's definition of sandbox is nothing like what most people who are excited about this is.

A year from now :"I promised you a sandbox and I delivered a sandbox.  Sucks for you if you don't agree with what I consider a sandbox."

 

 

“If MMORPG players were around when God said, "Let their be light" they'd have called the light gay, and plunged the universe back into darkness by squatting their nutsacks over it.”
-Luke McKinney, The 7 Biggest Dick Moves in the History of Online Gaming

"In the end, SWG may have been more potential and promise than fulfilled expectation. But I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
-Raph Koster

  Vorthanion

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1966

10/20/12 4:45:57 PM#319
Originally posted by rungard
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Because the whole bloody point of a sandbox is you can go where you want when you want. As soon as you have gear fated content. IT'S NOT A SANDBOX

 so if i have a game that has raids, and the result of these raids are magic items my guild can use to improve the guild, and say we take down a dragon, and we get a giant fire crystal. Lets say this giant fire crystal can be used to create a flamethrower turrets on a castles wall.

this is not a sandbox?

say i join a npc guild with my ranger, and i help that npc guild with my RANGER<---a class, and as a result i help develop the npc guild and build a great ranger stronghold where there was nothing before.

this is not a sandbox?

i think your view of a sandbox is far to pure to be useful. Sandbox is all about building and creation, but it must be kept fleible enough to ensure that its also a good game and not a complete simulator.

Perhaps we should stop using the term sandbox and use world instead.  World is obviously a far more useful and flexible term.

 

I fail to see how guild rewards constitute sandbox gameplay.  You are merely replacing individual rewards with guild rewards, while the gameplay itself remains the same.  Reward systems have nothing to do with sandbox or themepark.  It's how you attain them and whether you make it exclusive for the minority of the player base.

  rungard

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1037

The Sandbox Foundation does not exist!

10/20/12 5:19:27 PM#320
Originally posted by Vorthanion
Originally posted by rungard
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Because the whole bloody point of a sandbox is you can go where you want when you want. As soon as you have gear fated content. IT'S NOT A SANDBOX

 so if i have a game that has raids, and the result of these raids are magic items my guild can use to improve the guild, and say we take down a dragon, and we get a giant fire crystal. Lets say this giant fire crystal can be used to create a flamethrower turrets on a castles wall.

this is not a sandbox?

say i join a npc guild with my ranger, and i help that npc guild with my RANGER<---a class, and as a result i help develop the npc guild and build a great ranger stronghold where there was nothing before.

this is not a sandbox?

i think your view of a sandbox is far to pure to be useful. Sandbox is all about building and creation, but it must be kept fleible enough to ensure that its also a good game and not a complete simulator.

Perhaps we should stop using the term sandbox and use world instead.  World is obviously a far more useful and flexible term.

 

I fail to see how guild rewards constitute sandbox gameplay.  You are merely replacing individual rewards with guild rewards, while the gameplay itself remains the same.  Reward systems have nothing to do with sandbox or themepark.  It's how you attain them and whether you make it exclusive for the minority of the player base.

 it does make a difference. Not being able to get personal gear from raids ensures that crafting is most likely the main source for player gear. Sandbox or not you still need activities for players and guilds to work at, and since sandbox games promote creation and building beyond the character and toward the community, moving to guild rewards will help give a guild a sense of community and identity.

just because its sandbox doesnt mean theres no game to play.

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