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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Smedley: "EverQuest Next will be the world's largest sandbox-style MMO ever made"

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  phantomghost

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/05/11
Posts: 635

"Kill me, my man kills you, that's how you lose."

10/19/12 12:10:21 PM#201
Originally posted by Nethermancer

This is Smedley talking......

So I will chalk this one up to "we will wait and see"

I have played MMO's for over a decade now and 1 thing has stayed constant ....SOE ALWAYS lets me down. 

 

Matrix online? let down

SWG? let down

EQ? let down

EQ2? let down

Vangaurd? huge let down

DCOU? let down

Seems you have ridiculous expectations because EQ and SWG are and were amongst the best MMO's ever made.  It is a shame a game as terrible as SWTOR forced them to shut SWG down.

"I see they watchin' me and takin' notes on my moves, Run up on me it's all I want I ain't got nothin' to lose."

  Uhwop

Elite Member

Joined: 3/20/10
Posts: 1654

10/19/12 12:14:27 PM#202
Originally posted by Vorthanion
Originally posted by RefMinor
Originally posted by Vorthanion
Originally posted by RefMinor
Originally posted by Vorthanion
I'm curious, I thought Archeage was going to be the new AAA sandbox home?

This isn't highlander mate, there can be more than one.

Well, considering many of the responses about this announcement, they act as if this is the only AAA sandbox even coming down the pike.  That's why I question sandboxers who always act like they are never represented in the genre.

 

There's Archeage as well as the new and improving Darkfall and the potential of Citadel of Sorcery and now EverQuest Next, all of which are claiming to be sandbox games.

So, three unreleased games and one Indy effort of which the previous version was filled will bugs and cheats (hopefully the new version will be better). I guess we should be grateful.

Well, hate to break it to ya, but you are a niche within the genre, no matter how much your group believes otherwise.

 It's a developer imposed niche, not a player chosen one. 

Bad games and a game that's literally a niche within a niche (EVE) is not representative of what "players want".  It's everything to do with following the trend of success set by someone else. 

It is NORMAL business practice to try and capitalize on the success of someone else.  Developers have been chasing Blizzard sinse '04, and it has NOTHING to do with sandboxers being a niche within the genre, and EVERYTHING to do with business as usual. 

Two PC games were responcible for half of all PC sales in a single month, Skyrim and MW3.  Sandbox RPG's are hugely popular, and people that play MMO's are more than likely also playing single player RPGs. 

When the king of the hill is Nsync, than you what you get is a music industry that is all about boy bands, when it's Eminem, it's a music industry with a focus on hip hop, when it's Fallout Boy it's a music industry focues on studio rock bands. 

When the kind of the hill is a themepark, than every other developer will do what the king did, make a themepark.  If WoW had been a sandbox EVERY mmy made sinse '04 would also have been a sandbox and we'd be having a completely different conversation today. 

  fivoroth

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/10/06
Posts: 2680

10/19/12 12:22:05 PM#203
Originally posted by ShakyMo
Well it can't be like eq1.

That's the original themepark.
The phrase didn't come about with wow, it started with EQ / daoc / Ao in comparison to uo.

Actually I think WoW was the MMO that gave rise to the themepark references. EQ/Daoc/Ao had like nearly no quests compared to WoW. If you played EQ1 at the beginning can you remember how many quests you did in EQ? WoW had like 3-4k+ at the start which is probably 5 times more than all those other games put together.

WoW came up with the questing system in MMOs. I know WoW didn't invent the quest mechanic itself but neither did EQ, DAOC, AO or any of the other MMOs. Quests have been in RPGs for ages. And MMOs prior WoW had some but they were very very few. WoW decided to go down the questing route with thousands of them.

I always laugh at people saying that WoW didn't come up with anything new YET WoW came up with the idea to let you level up through quests and guide you through dungeons and raids through quests. And every single MMO ever since has adopted this approach.

Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

10/19/12 12:24:53 PM#204
Open world and little quests doesn't make a game a sandbox. By that reckoning gw2 is a "sandbox".

A sandbox has players actions changing the world.
  RefMinor

Novice Member

Joined: 7/16/11
Posts: 3542

Hipster

10/19/12 12:27:36 PM#205
Originally posted by Vorthanion
Originally posted by RefMinor
Originally posted by Vorthanion
Originally posted by RefMinor
Originally posted by Vorthanion
I'm curious, I thought Archeage was going to be the new AAA sandbox home?

This isn't highlander mate, there can be more than one.

Well, considering many of the responses about this announcement, they act as if this is the only AAA sandbox even coming down the pike.  That's why I question sandboxers who always act like they are never represented in the genre.

 

There's Archeage as well as the new and improving Darkfall and the potential of Citadel of Sorcery and now EverQuest Next, all of which are claiming to be sandbox games.

So, three unreleased games and one Indy effort of which the previous version was filled will bugs and cheats (hopefully the new version will be better). I guess we should be grateful.

Well, hate to break it to ya, but you are a niche within the genre, no matter how much your group believes otherwise.

The only news you are breaking to me is your own preconceptions, I do not have a group, I am an individual who follows his own beliefs. I do not see any sandbox enthusiasts claiming they are not niche, however that does not mean one made well would not be profitable for a company willing to invest.

  rutaq

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/08/06
Posts: 414

10/19/12 12:29:17 PM#206
Originally posted by BruceYee
My question is: How much funding would they need to pull this off? and how long would it take?

 

I think it was part of Ralph Kostner's recent SWG interview where is stated that you can launch a polished Sandbox in half the time and for  20% the costs of a traditional Themepark.  Since building game systems are easier than building Themepark content.

 

The tough part is that if the players don't like the sandbox systems then they won't entertain themselves for very long so long term viability can be tricky.  But given the costs savings, the box sales can probably cover development and even turn a health profit even if the game doesn't hold a large population after a few months.

 

Its nice to see the Big MMO devs finally giving "Sandbox" some serious attention after last 5 years of reguritated Themparks.

  Rimmersman

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/15/12
Posts: 911

10/19/12 12:56:08 PM#207
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by Rimmersman
Originally posted by Yamota
Wasn't Smedley the guy who was responsible for transforming SWG to ThemePark from Sandbox which lead to it's eventual failure? If so I would not believe one word from this guy in regards to sandbox.

Yes he did but it's old news and water under the bridge, did you play SWG or are you just going on what you have heard.

The order was given and Smed acted.

And as much as SWG was an open MMO it was not a complete sandbox MMO.

Complete sandbox or not it was ways, ways more sandbox than the ThemeParks we have seen in the last five years or so. So anything resembling a ThemePark would be a welcome change...

Yeah and i agree with that, i'm in agreement with you.

  Venger

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/03/04
Posts: 1322

Help Fight Global Warming
Shut Your Mouth :D

10/19/12 12:56:36 PM#208
My interest is peaked, have to keep an eye on this one now.
  Jetrpg

Novice Member

Joined: 4/22/06
Posts: 2392

10/19/12 12:57:02 PM#209
Originally posted by Apraxis
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by Apraxis

The themepark vs. sandbox discussion is as old as the UO vs. EQ discussion. And it was one arguement to seperate both design patterns.. but basicly it may even go back to MUDs.. but i dont know 100%.

EQ is the traditional Themepark, and back then as WoW was released, WoW was labeled an EQ clone for a reason.

And in contrary to a sandbox you cant build up/destroy stuff in the persistent environment. In a themepark everything remains the same.. the spot of goblins will be a spot of goblins now and a year later.

WoW was nothing like EQ, did you play EQ?

WoW is completely based on quest progression, EQ is completely based on grind progression.

Everquest had almost no quests, WoW is chock full of quests.

WOW allows you to solo on every class, EQ allows you to only solo on very few select classes.

WoW is completely on rails, EQ opens up a whole world with many choices the minute you leave your starting city.

WoW guides you to every zone, EQ didn't tell you where to go whatsoever.

WoW doesn't used static camps like EQ does.

People who claim EQ is like WoW never played EQ1, you can stop pretending.

Did WoW take some elements of EQ? Sure, is WoW comparable to EQ in terms of gameplay? No, not at all.

Vanguard is the only game I know that  cames somewhat close to EQ but it's still miles from what EQ is like, WoW is a different game altogether.

 

And since when do you need to be able to destroy things for a game to qualify as a sandbox.

 

I don't care if you want to say EQ is a sandbox or a themepark, but stop comparing EQ and WoW like they are similar games, they were and are completely different games, anyone who says they are clones has never played EQ.

Ok.. and from a today standpoint is correct.

But lets look from another standpoint. Take UO and EQ as two games from the first generation. And lets put in WoW as third game.

So, if you compare those three games. What do you think was WoW influenced most?

And just to name a few similarities:

- Level progression. You start with level 1 and go further to level 2, as will go the mobs to higher levels.

True for EQ. Not true for UO.

- Gear progression. With better levels, better gear will be available. Level tiered gear progression and beyond.

True for EQ. Not true for UO.

And i could go on with this list. Point is, the development team from WoW took a lot from EQ in the very basics of game design, how a mmorpg have to be. Of course, they expanded on it, casualized on it and so on. But they were going the EQ route of world and game design. Not the UO route of things. And in the very basics, this is the difference between Themepark and Sandbox game design.

Ok, from a standpoint from now. Almost every game(or lets just say every game) is build up like EQ in the basics. You got different levels, you got different gears for different levels, you got different zones for different levels. All that basic stuff.

You can even take that down to the old DikuMUD System, form which EQ was based of. And here a link for your to read more about it, if you are interested.

http://www.raphkoster.com/2009/01/09/what-is-a-diku/

And no offense intended. And of course if you look at it from now.. EQ and WoW is extremely different, with the added Quests and Quest Hubs and instances and all that shit. But the basics remain the same.

Edit/PS: And yes.. i played EQ. Or better, i tested it. Because tried it twice(EQ Vanilla, Release and a few month later), and both time never played very long, i couldnt stand it, and returned to UO. DAoC was the first themepark, which catched me a little bit longer. And even in DAoC i stopped playing with lvl18, and started 6month later again to hold out for 2 years, because the good RvR system. Lvl1-lvl50 from DAoC were seriously EQish at least in my mind. ;)

Great GREAt post.

Pretty much sums up the issues at hand about themepark vs no. UO didn't make the rules nor did EQ muds by large did and other games adopted parts of them.

This being said there is strictly liner progression in themeparks and then there are games like eq and daoc where you have to explore more you have camps of mobs that differ in level but overall levels and themes in zones (with few expections).

You can prefer and encourgae this type of game i do. Themepark is not a bad term is supierior to sandbox (you may argue otherwise thats fine) but there is a reason beyond wow for > number of themepark games. I just feel like people need to start DEMANDING quility in mmos. Like right now me and my friends were not sure of gw2 endgame rightfully so, the game is amazing other than them removing support from the game and no item progression end game. People should demand these thign exsist.

Im not playign wow anymore becuase i am demanding raid content like tbc, otherwise ill abstain, and i encourage others also. I want quality so ill not settle for less.

"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine

  Tamanous

Elite Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 1696

10/19/12 1:02:11 PM#210

Smedley has hinter at this for some time which has made me extremely excited (and I have never been excited about EQ as I was an AC player). This simply confirms things.

 

It scares me to think it but SOE may be the saviour of the mmo? Who would have thunk it?!

 

SOE is doing to EQ what Turbine should have done with AC. Good, good news ... as long as it isn't just hype (*AHEM* GW2)

You stay sassy!

  Rimmersman

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/15/12
Posts: 911

10/19/12 1:02:50 PM#211
Originally posted by phantomghost
Originally posted by Nethermancer

This is Smedley talking......

So I will chalk this one up to "we will wait and see"

I have played MMO's for over a decade now and 1 thing has stayed constant ....SOE ALWAYS lets me down. 

 

Matrix online? let down

SWG? let down -- Time to get over it, seriously it's finished

EQ? let down-- Hmm, how so?

EQ2? let down-- In a way i can agree with you, it was not the follow up of EQ we were expecting but it's still a great game.

Vangaurd? huge let down -- Sigil not SOE, without SOE their would be no Vanguard today

DCOU? let down

Seems you have ridiculous expectations because EQ and SWG are and were amongst the best MMO's ever made.  It is a shame a game as terrible as SWTOR forced them to shut SWG down.

I agree he really does not know what he is talking about imo.

  Edeus

Novice Member

Joined: 6/10/10
Posts: 513

10/19/12 1:39:00 PM#212
Originally posted by Lazzaro

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/10/18/soe-live-2012-keynote-announcements/

Discuss

Remind me about this again in 3 years.

Taru-Gallante-Blood elf-Elysean-Kelari-Crime Fighting-Imperial Agent

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

10/19/12 1:46:40 PM#213
Originally posted by Velocinox
Rejoicement over a noncommital ambiguous marketing statement?
Don't blame the industry for hype, just look in the mirror.

Chuckle.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

10/19/12 1:52:13 PM#214
Originally posted by RefMinor
Originally posted by DavisFlight
 NOpe.

No no no no no. No. Nope.

Man, even the fanboys never tried to claim that one.

Yes, I am afraid they did.

After yesterday's version of poison-the-well. I am now requiring direct quotes, or it didn't happen.  Pix or it didn't happen.  Whatever.  We'll await the citation of reference.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Burntvet

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/16/07
Posts: 2747

10/19/12 1:56:01 PM#215
Originally posted by Phry
Originally posted by Rimmersman
Originally posted by Yamota
Wasn't Smedley the guy who was responsible for transforming SWG to ThemePark from Sandbox which lead to it's eventual failure? If so I would not believe one word from this guy in regards to sandbox.

Yes he did but it's old news and water under the bridge, did you play SWG or are you just going on what you have heard.

The order was given and Smed acted.

And as much as SWG was an open MMO it was not a complete sandbox MMO.

SWG pre cu was about as sandboxy as its possible to be. the things they broke by trying to make it a themepark are, too numerous to list, but  introducing levels, introducing 'professions' are just a couple of the main ones. and it may be in the past, but its far from 'under the bridge'  maybe in another 10 years, people will have forgotten how epic fail SOE were over SWG.. but don't hold your breath..

I get so tired of hearing this "SOE is innocent, LA is the devil crap."

Point of fact: LA and SOE were co-publishers, so both had to agree on anything.

And also, and more importantly from the players' perspective, LA did not ever, even once, write one line of code for SWG. That was all SOE and Smed.

I am sure LA told SOE to intentionally turn SWG in a broken mess of unoptimized crap code? Right?

 

The truth is: that Smed AND LA got WoW fever and crashed SWG in attempt to gain the customers they didn't have, at the expense of every single customer they DID have.

And that is the most important thing to remember when dealing with Smed: He will always care more about chasing the customer he doesn't have, than taking care of the Paying Customer (you).

 

As to the main subject: there are many, many things weighing against the chance that any new EQ game will be "Sandboxy and good": the same people have programed and designed for SOE for years, and nothing good has come out of that place in a decade (and thus SOE's heavily declining fortunes). Plus SOE wrecked the only sandbox they ever had. Plus they don't have any sandbox designers. And on and on.

I seriously doubt SOE could actually put out a good game with who they have left, let alone a sandbox. Despite and especially because of what Smed says.

 

 

  fenistil

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/11
Posts: 3016

10/19/12 1:57:54 PM#216
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Velocinox
Rejoicement over a noncommital ambiguous marketing statement?
Don't blame the industry for hype, just look in the mirror.

Chuckle.

+1

  rungard

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1037

The Sandbox Foundation does not exist!

10/19/12 2:10:15 PM#217
Originally posted by Velocinox
Originally posted by rungard

I knew it. This announcement deserves the creation of a dedicated forum. All SWG/sandbox players rejoice.

Hopefully a AAA home is on the way.

Rejoicement over a noncommital ambiguous marketing statement?

Don't blame the industry for hype, just look in the mirror.

 lol wheres the hype. The game definitely exists, and it is a sorely needed AAA sandbox.

why wouldnt swg/sandbox players be happy about it?

  tank017

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/06
Posts: 2206

10/19/12 2:11:13 PM#218
Sounds awesome to me.the genre is dying for a AAA sandbox, bring it on!
  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4784

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

10/19/12 2:35:37 PM#219
Originally posted by rungard
Originally posted by Velocinox
Originally posted by rungard

I knew it. This announcement deserves the creation of a dedicated forum. All SWG/sandbox players rejoice.

Hopefully a AAA home is on the way.

Rejoicement over a noncommital ambiguous marketing statement?

Don't blame the industry for hype, just look in the mirror.

 lol wheres the hype. The game definitely exists, and it is a sorely needed AAA sandbox.

why wouldnt swg/sandbox players be happy about it?

 The hype is coming from you.  "Rejoice"

Why wouldn't they be happy about it?  The game definately exists?

A game exists in some state right now.  There is no one here that can state what level of playability it is, or what kind of game it is.

Smedley has been caught in lies before.  Soe' record is not very pretty.

There are a lot of reasons to doubt whether this game will be a sandbox, and whether it will be any good.

I would say thats enough reason to doubt, or at least get off the hype train that you are promoting.

At best all we should be saying is, "Thats interesting, lets wait for more information and feedback from people other than Soe."

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

10/19/12 2:39:17 PM#220
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

I would say thats enough reason to doubt, or at least get off the hype train that you are promoting.

At best all we should be saying is, "Thats interesting, lets wait for more information and feedback from people other than Soe."

Remember the pre-press speculation about TESO?

A request for more information from the floor is never out of order, Sergeant-at-Arms.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

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