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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The Hilarious Myth of "True Skill" in PvP.

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122 posts found
  Xzito

Novice Member

Joined: 4/22/11
Posts: 43

10/18/12 9:51:42 AM#101

reaction time is what needed in a fps followed by eye hand cordination to move your mouse , the one whose better at those 2. should come out ahead.

  stealthbr

Novice Member

Joined: 5/07/06
Posts: 1059

10/18/12 10:06:02 AM#102

Every action that we perform as human beings requires a skill (or several). It can range from putting a jacket on to calculating the center of mass of a boomerang. As is quite evident, different actions require different skills and none of that changes when discussing video games. However, skill can not merely be broken down to "knowing that game, knowing gaming in general, knowing the genre, and just good ol' fashion experience." The human form differs greatly from one being to another, and with that, certain people possess qualities that provide them with incredible advantages over others. For instance, people that see better, hear more clearly, have faster reflexes, have more precise movements with their hands, can rationalize faster, etc. will have a huge advantage over other players in, say, an FPS game. Some people learn faster as well, which is yet another significant factor to consider. Yes, these can be trained, learned, and refined, but your genetics will always determine your hard limits.

  Mors-Subita

Novice Member

Joined: 7/04/04
Posts: 463

10/18/12 10:33:14 AM#103

What I find funny are the people who talk about how PvP sucks, or it can only be done in a zerg, or X other excuse for their lack of skill...

And then watching them try to justify it when they and the other 30+ people in their zerg get wiped by 1-2 groups of 5.

  HensenLiros

Novice Member

Joined: 12/19/04
Posts: 473

"Tolerance is a sign of weakness."

10/18/12 11:04:14 AM#104

Look, OP. "True skill" is a concept created by the MMO community. You can't say that a concept is a myth. There is no way to argue about that, so you're wrong from the beginning. It's not an ideal or a belief, it's a concept.

The concept of "true skill" can be easily illustrated by a thought experiment:

1 - Two friends challenge eachother to a competition. The competition is: "whoever manages to sit for the most time, wins". Then they both sit in a chair and the one who gets up first looses.

2 - Playing tennis.

We, the MMO community, created this concept to illustrate the difference between those two competitions. Both require skill, and in both cases the most trained one will win, but only the second one is considered a "true skill" game. Why? Because it either takes teamwork, strategy or speed instead of patience, money or time.

Ex. of "true skill" games:

  Dancing games (speed, coordination)

  Shooting games (coordination, accuracy, eye-hand)

  MOBA (teamwork, speed)

Non-"true skill" games:

  P2W games (whoever spends more money, wins)

  Farming games (the one who wins at PvP is the one who farmed the most)

  Level-Scaling casual games (leveling takes the same time to skilled and unskilled players, whoever has the higher level wins)

 

I'm terribly sorry, but as you can see you're very mistaken and the OP is completely pointless. If we decide to create a concept called "nihilismlessness" that means how fast you can squat while playing a game, the only thing you can say about it is "oh, that's lame". You can't say that it's a myth or that it's wrong. I'm sorry. And please, if you had experience with MMO's you would certainly know that. Or maybe you're just very bad at ontology.

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  Mothanos

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/20/10
Posts: 1838

10/18/12 11:13:37 AM#105

Modern mmo takes skill believe it or not...how can you even think otherwise ?

Cooldown planning
Know what your oponent skills are
Tactical overvieuw of what is happening
Preventing or countering OP oponent skills
Using the best skills at the right time
Keep presure up
reseting a fight when shit hits the fan and staying alive
Teamwork

If you think competitive pvp in mmo's doesnt require skills then every mmo player could be gladiator in WoW or top of the line GW1 /GW2 pvp player.

Dude ever seen a movie from Hydra a priest in WoW ?
Ever seen a tournament in GW pvp ?

Ever came across the most nerfed class in a game and get totaly roflstomped and outplayed ?

You guys realy think it takes no skill to play at high level pvp in mmo ? :)

To each his own opinion but your very wrong when you think it takes low skill to play at high level pvp ;)

http://speedtest.net/result/2112016336.png

  User Deleted
10/18/12 11:16:07 AM#106
Originally posted by HensenLiros

Look, OP. "True skill" is a concept created by the MMO community. You can't say that a concept is a myth. There is no way to argue about that, so you're wrong from the beginning. It's not an ideal or a belief, it's a concept.

The concept of "true skill" can be easily illustrated by a thought experiment:

1 - Two friends challenge eachother to a competition. The competition is: "whoever manages to sit for the most time, wins". Then they both sit in a chair and the one who gets up first looses.

2 - Playing tennis.

We, the MMO community, created this concept to illustrate the difference between those two competitions. Both require skill, and in both cases the most trained one will win, but only the second one is considered a "true skill" game. Why? Because it either takes teamwork, strategy or speed instead of patience, money or time.

Ex. of "true skill" games:

  Dancing games (speed, coordination)

  Shooting games (coordination, accuracy, eye-hand)

  MOBA (teamwork, speed)

Non-"true skill" games:

  P2W games (whoever spends more money, wins)

  Farming games (the one who wins at PvP is the one who farmed the most)

  Level-Scaling casual games (leveling takes the same time to skilled and unskilled players, whoever has the higher level wins)

 

I'm terribly sorry, but as you can see you're very mistaken and the OP is completely pointless. If we decide to create a concept called "nihilismlessness" that means how fast you can squat while playing a game, the only thing you can say about it is "oh, that's lame". You can't say that it's a myth or that it's wrong. I'm sorry. And please, if you had experience with MMO's you would certainly know that. Or maybe you're just very bad at ontology.

So which one is the "true skill" playing tennis or dancing? The notion of a "true" skill in some kind of Platonic ideal sense is a complete nonsense. The task either involves some form of skill or it does not.

 

An FPS may require a greater extent of one type of skill than an mmo, or an rts or a whatever. An FPS may also require a greater ratio of skill to other factors than an mmo, or a moba or whatever. But then if you come along and proclaim "FPS is the true skill", then you being daft.

 

Those "non true skill" examples you gave are actually "skill-less" and there is a rather large difference.

 

It's just the same when people bang on about "true pvp". There is no such thing as "true pvp", there are simply differing forms of pvp. Some forms may require one set of skills over another, some may require a larger amount of skill, some may be zero skill. But they are all still forms of pvp, none is more "true" than the other.

 

Are there games/activities which require different types of skill? Yes.

Are there games/activities which require more skill than others? Yes.

Are there games/activities which require little to no skill? Yes.

Is there a fundamentally "true skill" or "true pvp"? No, clearly not.

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7699

Logic be damned!

10/18/12 11:27:07 AM#107

I don't know, it's not "easy" to get 4 kills with 4 head shots with a Sniper Rifle in a single clip w/o reloading in Halo: Reach multiplayer, but I did it last night and was part of me going 14:0 in a match.

(Yep, practicing up for Halo 4!!)

I had a Shotgun spree and a Sniper spree (5 each), 1 kill with a Pistol, 1 with the DMR, 1 melee (assassination), and 1 with Assault Rifle.

Is that skill?

I'm sure there are players much, much better than me at Halo - but that was pretty damn fun and I felt good about it.

Now Playing:
Looking Towards: Destiny

  HensenLiros

Novice Member

Joined: 12/19/04
Posts: 473

"Tolerance is a sign of weakness."

10/18/12 1:43:26 PM#108
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by HensenLiros

Look, OP. "True skill" is a concept created by the MMO community. You can't say that a concept is a myth. There is no way to argue about that, so you're wrong from the beginning. It's not an ideal or a belief, it's a concept.

The concept of "true skill" can be easily illustrated by a thought experiment:

1 - Two friends challenge eachother to a competition. The competition is: "whoever manages to sit for the most time, wins". Then they both sit in a chair and the one who gets up first looses.

2 - Playing tennis.

We, the MMO community, created this concept to illustrate the difference between those two competitions. Both require skill, and in both cases the most trained one will win, but only the second one is considered a "true skill" game. Why? Because it either takes teamwork, strategy or speed instead of patience, money or time.

Ex. of "true skill" games:

  Dancing games (speed, coordination)

  Shooting games (coordination, accuracy, eye-hand)

  MOBA (teamwork, speed)

Non-"true skill" games:

  P2W games (whoever spends more money, wins)

  Farming games (the one who wins at PvP is the one who farmed the most)

  Level-Scaling casual games (leveling takes the same time to skilled and unskilled players, whoever has the higher level wins)

 

I'm terribly sorry, but as you can see you're very mistaken and the OP is completely pointless. If we decide to create a concept called "nihilismlessness" that means how fast you can squat while playing a game, the only thing you can say about it is "oh, that's lame". You can't say that it's a myth or that it's wrong. I'm sorry. And please, if you had experience with MMO's you would certainly know that. Or maybe you're just very bad at ontology.

So which one is the "true skill" playing tennis or dancing? The notion of a "true" skill in some kind of Platonic ideal sense is a complete nonsense. The task either involves some form of skill or it does not.

 

An FPS may require a greater extent of one type of skill than an mmo, or an rts or a whatever. An FPS may also require a greater ratio of skill to other factors than an mmo, or a moba or whatever. But then if you come along and proclaim "FPS is the true skill", then you being daft.

 

Those "non true skill" examples you gave are actually "skill-less" and there is a rather large difference.

 

It's just the same when people bang on about "true pvp". There is no such thing as "true pvp", there are simply differing forms of pvp. Some forms may require one set of skills over another, some may require a larger amount of skill, some may be zero skill. But they are all still forms of pvp, none is more "true" than the other.

 

Are there games/activities which require different types of skill? Yes.

Are there games/activities which require more skill than others? Yes.

Are there games/activities which require little to no skill? Yes.

Is there a fundamentally "true skill" or "true pvp"? No, clearly not.

Yes, it is complete nonsense. But you can't say that it's wrong because it's just a concept. I don't agree with the term and I don't use it either, but the OP was just pointless by saying that it's a myth without understanding what people mean with "true skill". There are many forms of skills, but the MMO community chose to call some of them "true skill", that's it. There is no mystery and there is no discussion.

It's like arguing that the "sandbox" term is wrong by saying that there's not sand in-game. Just like biopolitics - it doesn't have anything to do with biology.

And the examples I gave are not skillless (except for P2W). Patience and endurance are skills. Being able to farm 16 hours per day is a skill. The problem is that it's not a skill valorized by PvPers.

The term is as bad as "true metal". It's just a different type of metal music. People chose to denominate a subgroup as "true", and you can't do anything about it. It's a concept, it can't be a "myth".

Ultima Online 98~04
Dark Age of Camelot 03~07
Final Fantasy XI 04~06
Guild Wars 05~08
World of Warcraft 04~05
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  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4784

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

10/18/12 2:56:22 PM#109
You may not be able to say a concept is wrong (I think you can actually), but you absolutely can say that the reasons or premise that the concept is built up on is wrong, and therefore the concept is incredibly flawed aka wrong.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  SirFubar

Novice Member

Joined: 7/21/11
Posts: 403

10/18/12 3:47:52 PM#110
Originally posted by HensenLiros
And the examples I gave are not skillless (except for P2W). Patience and endurance are skills. Being able to farm 16 hours per day is a skill. The problem is that it's not a skill valorized by PvPers.

I hope your are kidding here...Because if you really think being able to farm 16 hours per day is a skill, then from this point of view being able to walk is a skill, being able to drink a glass of water is a skill, hell nearly everything we do in everyday life is a skill...That's pushing the thinking wayyyy to far IMO. True skill is a myth and will always be. The concept of high skill ceiling games tho is REAL. We don't care if the MMO community created the concept of true skill, it doesn't mean its right. What people think true skill is will usually be mistaken for high skill ceiling, something that most MMO player don't have a clue what it means from what I can see.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4784

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

10/18/12 4:07:19 PM#111

Well actually walking is definitely a skill and drinking from a cup definitely has components of skill anyway.  A common skill that is normally mastered early but a skill non the less.  Just ask anyone involved in physical rehab if they think it is a skill.  The answer will be positive.  Actually I’m impressed that we do them as well as we do.  When you consider the amount of neural control and recruitment, muscular recruitment from gross muscles to fine stabilizers of specific joints to overall body mechanics, to vestibular apparatus use to energy production and storage needed to produce the movement and delivery systems to support it... it truly is staggering. 

 

However the celing does exist.  We dont' know where it is, but we know the closer we get to in, further gains take significantly longer and involve more effort.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Ozivois

Novice Member

Joined: 4/17/10
Posts: 600

10/18/12 4:17:19 PM#112
Lowest latency wins in pvp over skill...
  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4749

10/18/12 4:38:38 PM#113
Originally posted by Disatisfied9

It appears as though I have confused the majority of people here. There is a strict definition between what SOME people claim is "True Skill" (defined as being the only 'real' skill) and my belief, which is that ALL games take Skill. This is not me claiming that PLAYER SKILL is a myth, but that "True Skill" is a myth. The myth is that playing a game like Counterstrike 1.6 or Starcraft does NOT give you "True Skill", while playing any other FPS or RTS game means you "Don't know what TRUE skill is."

THIS IS A CONCEPT, A DISCUSSION OF OTHER'S PERSPECTIVE AND IDEAS-- Not my personal soap box to QQ or Rage that Skill doesn't exist at all, anywhere in gaming. I CANNOT make myself anymore clear.

I read in another thread, someone with the perspective that they had "True Skill" because they played "serious" games like CS1.6, Starcraft, and (I have heard many claim before) MOBA game of choice.

I just had to snip that wall of  text down (though I did read the whole thing). Too much ranting, not enough substance. ANYWAY:

You are wrong sir.  Just flat out wrong. 'True Skill' is not a myth, but it does require a definition (as it's not a real term). To me, and I'd like to think that most people would agree on this, 'true skill' is:

When a win, or favorable outcome, is determined by the players own merits over flaws or exploits in a game's mechanics.

For example, if you win a game because you are lvl 80, and your enemy is lvl 60, that's not really 'skill', it's winning because you were able to exploit a game's mechanics over your opponent. Basically the game is giving you the advantage. When this comes to PvP in an MMO, it's winning because of an imbalance of somekind, rather than through superior tactics, reactions, or coordination.

A really good example of 'true skill' in gaming, is league of legends. You don't need good 'twitch skills', but through making smart decisions, having good reflexes, good teammwork, etc. determines the outcome of a match. You can literally see in games when power shifts in one direction or another. It's not given by some game mechanic, but rather taken through player initiative. Skill takes practice, and is something you have or develope, as opposed to something given to you.

It's because of this, that while some have argued that 'knowing the best gear, or where to find the best stuff, or best skills in an MMO can be considered skill', such information has become such public knowledge that this argument holds less and less water each year.

To understand the difference between 'true skill' and power given to you from a video game, go play Demon Souls. In that game you can run through the game w/ out grinding lvls and, if you're good enough, still make it through. However, if you aren't good enough, you can grind lvls and have the game give you the difference in power. That, in one game, illustrates the difference perfectly.

If you still can't see the that certain games take 'true skill', you probably need to play less RPGs, and check out some of the rest of the industry. There are quite a few of these games out there.

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4749

10/18/12 4:47:05 PM#114
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

However the celing does exist.  We dont' know where it is, but we know the closer we get to in, further gains take significantly longer and involve more effort.

Actually, we do know where the ceiling is. It's called 'perfection'.

But, you're right. The closere we get to obtaining perfection, the longer it takes to gain a fraction of improvement in our gameplay. Whether it be activating skills a fraction of a second sooner, or more efficiently dodge, or setup attacks; or be able to predict 6 moves ahead as opposed to 5, the advantage is there and it's usually amongst top tier players where such small advantage decide the outcomes.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4784

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

10/18/12 5:30:24 PM#115
But we don't know what perfection is because its never been seen. So hoe do we know when we've achieved it

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4784

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

10/18/12 5:31:09 PM#116
Posted from a phone. Please forgive the errors

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Istavaan

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/25/12
Posts: 1398

10/18/12 5:33:59 PM#117
I guess games take good hand eye coordination and knowledge of the game itself, but esports is the biggest loser fest i've ever witness and some gamers actually worship these pro gamers..sad very sad.
  SirFubar

Novice Member

Joined: 7/21/11
Posts: 403

10/18/12 10:52:10 PM#118
Originally posted by aesperus
Originally posted by Disatisfied9

It appears as though I have confused the majority of people here. There is a strict definition between what SOME people claim is "True Skill" (defined as being the only 'real' skill) and my belief, which is that ALL games take Skill. This is not me claiming that PLAYER SKILL is a myth, but that "True Skill" is a myth. The myth is that playing a game like Counterstrike 1.6 or Starcraft does NOT give you "True Skill", while playing any other FPS or RTS game means you "Don't know what TRUE skill is."

THIS IS A CONCEPT, A DISCUSSION OF OTHER'S PERSPECTIVE AND IDEAS-- Not my personal soap box to QQ or Rage that Skill doesn't exist at all, anywhere in gaming. I CANNOT make myself anymore clear.

I read in another thread, someone with the perspective that they had "True Skill" because they played "serious" games like CS1.6, Starcraft, and (I have heard many claim before) MOBA game of choice.

I just had to snip that wall of  text down (though I did read the whole thing). Too much ranting, not enough substance. ANYWAY:

You are wrong sir.  Just flat out wrong. 'True Skill' is not a myth, but it does require a definition (as it's not a real term). To me, and I'd like to think that most people would agree on this, 'true skill' is:

When a win, or favorable outcome, is determined by the players own merits over flaws or exploits in a game's mechanics.

For example, if you win a game because you are lvl 80, and your enemy is lvl 60, that's not really 'skill', it's winning because you were able to exploit a game's mechanics over your opponent. Basically the game is giving you the advantage. When this comes to PvP in an MMO, it's winning because of an imbalance of somekind, rather than through superior tactics, reactions, or coordination.

A really good example of 'true skill' in gaming, is league of legends. You don't need good 'twitch skills', but through making smart decisions, having good reflexes, good teammwork, etc. determines the outcome of a match. You can literally see in games when power shifts in one direction or another. It's not given by some game mechanic, but rather taken through player initiative. Skill takes practice, and is something you have or develope, as opposed to something given to you.

It's because of this, that while some have argued that 'knowing the best gear, or where to find the best stuff, or best skills in an MMO can be considered skill', such information has become such public knowledge that this argument holds less and less water each year.

To understand the difference between 'true skill' and power given to you from a video game, go play Demon Souls. In that game you can run through the game w/ out grinding lvls and, if you're good enough, still make it through. However, if you aren't good enough, you can grind lvls and have the game give you the difference in power. That, in one game, illustrates the difference perfectly.

If you still can't see the that certain games take 'true skill', you probably need to play less RPGs, and check out some of the rest of the industry. There are quite a few of these games out there.

IMO you are wrong too. What you call "True Skill" is player skill for me. Like I sais before, some skills will transfert from one game to another, but usually not on the same emphasis. So there's no "True Skill" that will make you one of the best at every competitive games like the myth of "True Skill" imply (at least that's what I think of when people talk about "True Skill").

Your example of LoL is a pretty bad one IMO, since the game as a lower skill ceiling than Dota, so you couldn't have "True Skill" in a game that is easier to play than another one. Making smart decisions, having good reflexes (really in LoL?, that's like the last thing you need to play LoL if you compare it to MMO's or FPS) and teamwork are a must to anyone who want to be a good player in nearly every competitive games. Those 3 skills alone will never make you a top player. They are only  the half of the job. You might think those are "True Skill" but if you don't do the other part of the job, which imply playing a lot, studying every aspects of the game, learning the games mechanics, learning how to counter properly and so on, your "True Skill" is next to useless since you will still suck at the game even if you have good reflexes, team work and smart decisions making (well you need to study the game a lot to have good desicions making, but I think you get the point). Sure skill take pratice, but sometimes, it comes from natural talent too.

You other example of your console game is another really bad example. You won't get skill out of a single player game...I mean comon after all you wrote, I would've thought you would know better than this. Well I guess some people still thinks single player game requires any skill...lol.

If you still think that ''True Skill" exist and can make you a top player of any games, then I guess you should go play high skill ceiling games so you could understand what having real skills mean. Also if you want, go read my other posts in this thread about skill ceiling. Because, playing a high skill ceiling game will always make you a better player if you can compete at the top then compete at the top in a low skill ceiling game.

  SirFubar

Novice Member

Joined: 7/21/11
Posts: 403

10/18/12 10:56:02 PM#119
Originally posted by Istavaan
I guess games take good hand eye coordination and knowledge of the game itself, but esports is the biggest loser fest i've ever witness and some gamers actually worship these pro gamers..sad very sad.

Yeah and the grammy's aren't a bigger loser fest than eSport?...same for the Oscar's?. People with their weird logic....

  Mors.Magne

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/02/07
Posts: 1425

10/19/12 3:46:35 AM#120
Originally posted by gobla
Originally posted by Mors.Magne

In the context of PvP Eve Online (presuming one has sufficient skill points to live in null sec):

 

Organisation & Friends >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Time you are willing to 'invest'  >  'true skill'  >  skill points

 

The biggest problem with the best games is that they can waste a huge amount of your time - particularly if you want to be any good at them.

Fixed that for you.

Being able to call on allies and fleet members in an organised manner is what wins battles in EvE.

If you play only an hour a day, or even less, but during that hour fill the role of a competent FC you will be able to attract enough friends to fight, scout and give assistance for you to stand a very good chance at winning against any fleet you wish to engage and avoiding any fleet you do not wish to engage.

Even filling another role within your alliance of corporation that's needed, regardless of actual time investment, will likely get you enough respect from your fellow pilots for them to assist you in your battles and stand a much better chance at winning.

No - "Organisation & Friends" takes a MASSIVE AMOUNT OF TIME !!

 

There, fixed it for you.

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