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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The Hilarious Myth of "True Skill" in PvP.

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122 posts found
  Gorwe

Elite Member

Joined: 9/16/11
Posts: 1807

10/16/12 8:31:51 PM#61

I'll tell you my experiences. They'll be coming from LoL and HoN.

The point about speed is a valid one. When I play Amun Ra/Salforis/Gemini in HoN or Jarvan/TF/Gragas in LoL I have substantially higher APM than otherwise(higher than 110). It is especially visible when compared to characters that don't suit me personally and I end up with low APM(sub 75). The result? I tend to have scores that look Like 14/5/20 or 10/3/8 with High APM characters and scores such as 5/5/20 or 3/7/8 with low APM characters.

The point about computer Knowledge I'll refute because I feel Like that's the same as Deck Stacking skills in poker. Both are valid, but prohibited(even forbidden).

But truth be told? B-ball is a skill. Fencing is a skill. Gardening is a skill. Playing games? I guess it COULD be CONSIDERED a skill, but it is not truly a skill. And why not? Because it is just pressing keys! It requires minimal finesse and close to no Dexterity/Strength(or such things which are outright necessary for some hobbies). The only thing it requires is the ability to learn(which in itself is made out of two things: Willingness to learn and IQ) and time and a bit of finesse(or as you call it: Speed). Seeing how time spent doing something=experience, it is the primary resource of gaming. And you can't call that unemployed, ugly bloke Down the street exactly skillful, now can ya? If he were skilled he wouldn't be living in his parent's cellar. And don't even make me talk about "t3h pr0" gaming(because everyone can learn to use common Sense/common mathemagical skills, but not everone is born to be Shaquille or Jordan or Jeter or Ovechkin)-therefore the VERY definition of pro gaming is destroyed.

Then there's "True" skill. How can we talk about parts of a voided system(mathemagics speak)? It does not make Sense. If there is no, or close to no, skill involved-how can then "True" skill exist? Lol! Pray tell...

Then there is Psychollogy. Some people are naturally more competitive than others. Those who are more competitive have larger Abilities to learn how to hurt/harm/best other human. Others are cooperative. Mind you, both should be present in quality(this being the keyword) PvP. But if you aren't exactly competitive(I am not) and you end up with 0 Teamwork(because you are in solo-q in MOBA) and therefore receive 0 cooperation-the Odds are stacked in favour of the individual getting mad/furious/exasperated/bitter/sad. And those are not exactly quality of Life feelings, now are they?

In cooperative setting I shine Like no other(me being a support or tank mostly). Take that element away and the only way for me to win is to take inherently OP/roflstomp character and just, well, roflstomp. But that's neither fun nor satisfying and most certainly not a skill. 

But take that with a fistful of salt because I don't exactly like PvP(me being ESAK on Bartle's test just proves this{XNFP by Jung does not help either}[and Pisces-I lol at competitive Pisces-does that even exist lol?->me being Pisces]. One could be observant and say that Nature has made me not Like PvP. Keep in mind-I don't suck. I just don't derive pleasure from beating/hurting/harming other humans, neither do I wish to be "famous"(that thing brings Bad LUKK) nor compare myself to anyone.

There you have it! My Tower of Text! 

Cheers Mate!

  Coated

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/05/09
Posts: 278

10/16/12 8:42:45 PM#62

In terms of skill needed -

Starcraft>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>FPS>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>LoL,HoN,DoTA,MMORPG's.

Anyways, you still need a certain amount of skill to be good, but the skill required is much much less. The average monkey behind a keyboard could do well at the latter, but not everyone can do well with the former.

  someforumguy

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/25/07
Posts: 3496

10/16/12 8:57:57 PM#63

I consider reaction time, tactical thinking, anticipating, surrounding awareness and knowledge as skills . These can be applied (partly) to any situation. Including games.

That some of these (like game knowledge) are only applicable in that specific game, is besides the point. It is still a skill in that you can measure yourself against someone else's skill in that field. For the definition of the word skill, it doesn't matter if it is about games or something more 'serious'. 

The problem usually lies in what specific skill people are discussing. Often it is not even explained and ppl just end up discussing different kinds of skill.

As for 'True skill'. That just doesn't make sense apart from just using it as silly hyperbole. You are either comparing skills or not. There is no need to classify certain skills. It is besides the point.

  someforumguy

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/25/07
Posts: 3496

10/16/12 9:00:02 PM#64
Originally posted by Coated

In terms of skill needed -

Starcraft>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>FPS>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>LoL,HoN,DoTA,MMORPG's.

Anyways, you still need a certain amount of skill to be good, but the skill required is much much less. The average monkey behind a keyboard could do well at the latter, but not everyone can do well with the former.

This is what I mean. What this poster wrote doesn't even make sense. Classic apples vs oranges. Comparing fps with rts is useless if you are talking about skills. Both require different sets of skills. If you are great at starcraft you can still suck at a fps and the other way around. This should be obvious lol.

  User Deleted
 
OP  10/16/12 9:28:21 PM#65
Originally posted by someforumguy
Originally posted by Coated

In terms of skill needed -

Starcraft>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>FPS>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>LoL,HoN,DoTA,MMORPG's.

Anyways, you still need a certain amount of skill to be good, but the skill required is much much less. The average monkey behind a keyboard could do well at the latter, but not everyone can do well with the former.

This is what I mean. What this poster wrote doesn't even make sense. Classic apples vs oranges. Comparing fps with rts is useless if you are talking about skills. Both require different sets of skills. If you are great at starcraft you can still suck at a fps and the other way around. This should be obvious lol.

It doesn't make sense?

Exactly. This is EXACTLY what I am talking about. The entire OP is ABOUT people like "Coated".

 

CS1.6 or Starcraft? You have TRUE SKILL!

Play other games? You don't even KNOW what true skill is!

 

This is the "True Skill" that I am stating doesn't exist. This guy is the epitome of the OP. The epitome of the Hilarious Myth. The epitome of "True Skill".

  f0dell54

Novice Member

Joined: 4/16/12
Posts: 311

Sanity....
It's for the weak.

10/16/12 10:25:46 PM#66
Originally posted by Bathnor
      "True skill" lol.

Probably the best and most accurate post in this whole thread.

lol

  Lienhart

Novice Member

Joined: 5/21/07
Posts: 673

10/16/12 10:53:10 PM#67

lol this likely refers to the topic I made.

To expand on what I meant: I was referring to the skill cap.

StarCraft and most of the Counter-Strikes have extremely high individual skill caps. League of Legends, DoTA and mobas in general do not but have extremely high team skill caps.

It's really hard to define as the concept is abstract but it's why MMO PvP will never be taken seriously (no matter how hard Blizzard tires to push it or pay ppl to take it).

But you know what, I could have said something that made a lot more sense: true skill and balls are involved in knee dragging at 120km/h on a Fireblade; not in the virtual world. However, I assume that nerds like me are extremely rare and that most are going to Google wtf is a Fireblade is. Mentioning that would be out of context...which I just did.

EDIT: Oops, knee drag on highway ramps, what I said was probably not explicit enough for the non-riders to understand.

  Odinthedark1

Novice Member

Joined: 10/06/11
Posts: 338

"A fool learns from his own mistakes, a wise man learns from the mistakes of others."

10/16/12 11:04:31 PM#68
i agree with the OP slightly the only difference i would say in opinion is that everyone has their limit and no amount of practice will ever get you past that limit, and what i believe decides that limitation are both Reflex and IQ to be able to quickly adapt to any situation is obviously important but the split seconds to react and ability within those seconds to choose the best possible course of action can make a huge difference.
  n3v3rriv3r

Novice Member

Joined: 5/13/10
Posts: 323

10/17/12 2:11:43 AM#69

Nice post OP.

I would like to offer a piece of wisdom to all claiming to have "True Skill" tm in any game:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

p.s. yes, yes I know this aplies to everyone but you

  Nitth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 3306

Magic Propels my Rolly Chair.

10/17/12 2:16:11 AM#70


Originally posted by OSF8759
Do not try to pwn the n00b. That's impossible. Instead, only realize the truth. There is no n00b. Then you'll see, that it is not the n00b that is pwnd, it is only yourself.

lol


TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16719

10/17/12 2:27:39 AM#71
Originally posted by Robokapp
Op will never recognise true skill even if it's right in front of him...he could be playing chess online with kasparov and laugh at the concept of true skill...

I dunno, "true skill" sounds like a buzzword to differ the game you do best against other games.

Skill exist of course and in MMO it is skill, gear and level that usually matter but "true" just seems to be bullocks.

There are different types of skill indeed, some people have natural abilities that makes them good from the start while others have to train a lot to be good (Kasparov have both).

  kaiser3282

Tipster

Joined: 5/21/08
Posts: 2645

10/17/12 2:40:38 AM#72

I agree with a lot of what the OP and a few others are saying.

For those who seem to be getting confused by a whole lot of text, here is a simplified version.

There is not 1 type of game that is the only type that requires "true skill" to play. Playing and being good at 1 type does not magically mean you have "true skill" and people who play another type of game arent as skilled as you.

They require being good at completely different skillsets, but all of them require at least bits of what it takes to excel in other types.

For example:

MMOs typically revolve more around things like min/maxing builds (and understanding the mathematics behind everyting), understanding, memorizing,  and executing the best sequence of skills for each situation. Many games also require a lot of memorizing / being aware of your surroundings and knowing how to use the terrain to your advantage (like to break LoS when getting focused by several people and fool them into coming around at you 1 at a time). MMORPGS focus less in "twitch" skill or fast reflexes, however they do play small part. The guys who are slower to react, move around when needed, pop off quick heals when they are most crucial, etc will typically die a lot. They also require you knwoing your enemy's capabilities and being able to predict and counter what they might use against you.

FPS games focus a lot more on twitch skills, reflexes, accuracy, etc. But they do also require some of what MMORPGs require. Memorizing maps, utilizing terrain for hiding / ambushin, setting up strategic choke points, etc. Though they may not require actual min/maxing of stats, you do still need to be very aware of things like which types of weapons are best suited for certain types of maps & situations, the accuracy, firing speed, etc. You'll see a lot of people who dont understand these things running around using every gun like a noob cannon, just firing off entire clips of ammo and barely managing to kill 1 person, or trying to use fast firing automatic weapons set to full auto trying to pick off people at long range. Then you'll see those guys dong things like taking a silenced pistol charging in and murdering the guy trying to unload a clip on him and not getting hit in the process, or a "weak" rifle with low firepower just sitting back in the distance popping off 1 round at a time taking someone down with a headshot 3/4 or more of the time. These are the guys who understand their weapon, and the enemy's weapons very well. They know how to maximize their killing power while conserving ammo, avoid getting hit by the enemies while in a hail of gunfire, and are able to easily pick up on habits and predict where the enemy will go and what they will do so they can pick off moving targets with a single shot.

Not going to go into the whole RTS thing, enough ranting already. But point is, all types of games require similar types of skills throughout them, but obviously excelling in one skillset gives you more of an advantage in a particular type. It doesnt mean you're "more skilled" than anyone in any other type of game, just that you have more skill in the particular area being emphasized in that game.

Some of us are fortunate enough to be quite well balanced and capable of performing all skillsets quite well. Might not be the best in an individual aspect but good enough in all of them that the combination makes you better overall. Those are the guys you will see who just kick the shit out of their competition on a daily basis wether it be fps, rts, or MMO. The guys who just hop into a new game and master it very quickly. Not the guys who are all like 'Im so much more skilled than you." then you say "OK come fight me in my game" and all of a sudden theyre like "But thats not my game that Im awesome at. Its unfair". The really skilled people will kick your ass regardless of game once they get the basics down.

  Waterlily

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/26/08
Posts: 2893

10/17/12 2:41:10 AM#73
People ask me why I don't want to join a PVP server. This is exactly  why lol. Bickering who is the best and the leetest and coolest and haz da most skillz. I don't see this in PVE.
  kaiser3282

Tipster

Joined: 5/21/08
Posts: 2645

10/17/12 2:44:53 AM#74
Originally posted by Waterlily
People ask me why I don't want to join a PVP server. This is exactly  why lol. Bickering who is the best and the leetest and coolest and haz da most skillz. I don't see this in PVE.

Really?

"OMG your GS isnt over 9000! U R such a n00b. You suck so bad"

or

"OMG you couldnt solo that boss in epic gear? I owned him in 5 seconds completely naked with a broken stick. L2P n00b!"

People are e-peen measuring asshats regardless of type of game. 

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4835

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

10/17/12 3:05:19 AM#75
Originally posted by kaiser3282
Originally posted by Waterlily
People ask me why I don't want to join a PVP server. This is exactly  why lol. Bickering who is the best and the leetest and coolest and haz da most skillz. I don't see this in PVE.

Really?

"OMG your GS isnt over 9000! U R such a n00b. You suck so bad"

or

"OMG you couldnt solo that boss in epic gear? I owned him in 5 seconds completely naked with a broken stick. L2P n00b!"

People are e-peen measuring asshats regardless of type of game. 

 Yes but pvp servers still have arguing about gear score, epics and bosses as well as people bickering over "skills"  :).

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  TwoThreeFour

Novice Member

Joined: 3/26/12
Posts: 2148

10/17/12 3:45:01 AM#76
Originally posted by Spennet
I'm not really sure what you're trying to say, but I guess it has something to do with your disbelief in the existence of a universal video game skill aka. "true skill". The mastering of any skill can be simplified to the following equation: time x learningfactor = proficiency. This learningfactor is what's generally known as talent - or in this case - "true skill". So the question is: Does this exists across various PvP games? I would say yes. For instance there certainly exist people who learns strategy games faster  than the average individual. That being said, if there exists a pretty large gap between the amount of time two players have dedicated to playing a certain game; the player with the most amount of time spent will probably always beat the other player (unless the other player is the Bob Fischer of video games).

Problem is that your equation is only accurate to a certain point, because at a certain point, you simply can't become better even if you spend all time in the world due to certain talent being required. 

  Phry

Elite Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 5271

10/17/12 3:53:39 AM#77
Originally posted by f0dell54
Originally posted by Bathnor
      "True skill" lol.

Probably the best and most accurate post in this whole thread.

lol

and a scarily accurate graphical representation no doubt

Unless they play Eve of course, in which case i guarantee they are all ruggedly handsome.. even the male players

  stayontarget

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Joined: 10/04/08
Posts: 6130

Girlfriends come and go but Epic battles are Soulbound

10/17/12 3:54:55 AM#78
True Skill is trying to find a game that you really like.

Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...

  kaiser3282

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Joined: 5/21/08
Posts: 2645

10/17/12 4:27:10 AM#79
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
Originally posted by Spennet
I'm not really sure what you're trying to say, but I guess it has something to do with your disbelief in the existence of a universal video game skill aka. "true skill". The mastering of any skill can be simplified to the following equation: time x learningfactor = proficiency. This learningfactor is what's generally known as talent - or in this case - "true skill". So the question is: Does this exists across various PvP games? I would say yes. For instance there certainly exist people who learns strategy games faster  than the average individual. That being said, if there exists a pretty large gap between the amount of time two players have dedicated to playing a certain game; the player with the most amount of time spent will probably always beat the other player (unless the other player is the Bob Fischer of video games).

Problem is that your equation is only accurate to a certain point, because at a certain point, you simply can't become better even if you spend all time in the world due to certain talent being required. 

Agree. This is especially true in FPS games, since they rely the most on twitch skill and reflexes.

Yes you can develop and improve your skill / reflexes over time, but everyone has a limit or plateau to how far they will get. Ive played with people who are playing an FPS for several hours a day every day for months on end, who still suck at the game because they lack the quick thinking and reflexes needed. Then I run into other people who pick up that same game, have been playing for a week and just kick the shit out of me regularly. Everyone has a different skill / learning curve.

I had a guy like this in my clan on Ghost Recon 2. Ran into the guy his 3rd day playing the game. At the time I was #1 ranked in kills in the entire game as well as holding #1 rank in score in 2 out of 3 game modes, and was leading a clan full of other top 10 spot holders and we were ranked #1 on the gamebattles ladders and on our way to the semifinals of a tournament. Dude comes into the lobby we were in, playing the opposite team as me. Everywhere I went I was dropping people in my way, and here is this guy sitting back picking me off nearly every time with a single shot to the head. Ran into him a few more times over that week and he just consistently kept it up. Ended up recruiting him to the clan and he became  one of our most valuable assets in large maps allowing him to snipe. He was very sneaky / great at hiding & using terrain, and had a crazy headshot skill. Awesome thing is, this guy also went on to get a job at Redstorm and worked on Ghost Recon Future Soldier as a level designer.

Other people have the talent to be exceptional players, but it takes them longer to develop.

Like the story above, there was another clanmate of mine from Rainbow Six 3 (before GR2) who fit this to a T. He had been playing about a month when he ran into me for the 1st time. I normally ran uneven matches, me or me + 1 vs everyone else, with me using just a silenced 9 MM pistol and them running whatever they want. At first you could tell he was kind of frustrated cause I was just kicking the crap out of his team over and over. But we got along OK and ended up friending eachother in game. I admit, he was pretty bad at the game at that time. Over the next few weeks he kept coming into my matches, but was always on the other side. One day I asked him "Why dont you ever join my team" and he said "Because you will kill them all anyway and I will just do nothing and keep sucking. I would rather fight against you and learn how to beat you so I can get better". Which he very much did. He spent 90% of his time playing opposite me, andif nobody else was around we would spend hours just 1 v 1 against eachother and I would give him advice. After about 3 months of playing with me & my clan regularly, he finally felt he was good enough and asked if he could join us. We put him through our usual series of pass/fail tests to see if he had what it takes, and he passed with flying colors and got accepted. He changed his name, added our clan tag, etc. The next day I go online, hop into a match, and when seeing my tag people start asking "Hey arent you in the same clan as that Reservoir guy?" Im like "Yeah. Why?" and they all start talking about how he was in there a couple hours ago just stomping the shit out of everyone nonstop and how the host at the time got pissed off and kicked him from their server. After that I kept hearing his name a lot when I joined other people's matches, and most people who knew us refused to play if me and him were on the same team together. He also came to GR2 with us, and it took him a bit longer to adjust to the game, but eventually he started moving up in the ranks and caught up with the rest of us.

It always took him longer, but because of the similar limits all of my clanmates shared, when he hit that plateau he was just about as good as any of us. It didnt matter which of us was better faster, because we all hit the top of our game at some point, and some of us played a lot more than others. Time spent playing became irrelevant once we were all at that point.

TLDR version: Some people develop their skills very quickly, almost instantly. Others take a lot of time and work to develop their skills. But regardless of which type you are, everyone has a point where they have reached the "peak" of their abilities. You might get slightly better with more time afte rthat point, but it is very tiny increases. That peak is different for everyone, and some players will wind up being better than others in the end. But that peak exists for all of us.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

10/17/12 5:05:25 AM#80
Originally posted by Waterlily
People ask me why I don't want to join a PVP server. This is exactly  why lol. Bickering who is the best and the leetest and coolest and haz da most skillz. I don't see this in PVE.

If chest-thumping and swagger get on your nerves, you just won't be able to stomach any pvp forum for very long.  :shrug:

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

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