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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » F2P = Milk the cow publishers are cashing in.

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77 posts found
  Oberholzer

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/25/06
Posts: 501

10/14/12 7:55:35 PM#61
Businesses are there to make money and they want to make as much as they can. I don't see anything wrong with that. If I think something is over priced or does not provied valiue for my dollar I simply don't buy it. It's funny people think companies should make just enough to keep going but not make too much because once they do they are greedy. Strange mentality really. It's up to the consumer to watch how they spend their money.
  ChrisReitz

Novice Member

Joined: 8/21/07
Posts: 127

10/14/12 8:57:29 PM#62
Thats why every other p2p game is going f2p cause its a "trend". P2P is dying.
  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12387

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Project Gorgon, and Combat Arms

10/14/12 9:08:11 PM#63
Originally posted by fenistil
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by fenistil
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by GeezerGamer

The whole point behind MMOs started with the idea that you have t owork towards something. You want it? You go get it. You find like minded players who want it too and you work together to achieve it. Today's games and games with cash shops completely undermine that whole concept at it's very core.

It would indeed undermine it, if the point was what you said. Luckily it isn't. I'm quite amazed you think thats the point of MMOs.

Point of any game is to provide entertaiment.  Difftent people find entertaiment in difftent things and his 'point' is quite common and cash shop indeed hurt it.

You are correct that the point of any game is to provide entertainment and that different things entertain different people, however you are confusing point with playstyle.

Not necessarily.  Of course it boild down to personal choices and playstyle if use CS or not, or how to play a game at all. Still someone else working to achieve something in same game I play that use cash shop to get it - is for me like using cheats and undermine whole point I even play games in first place.  Exactly same reason I am extremly anti-bot and anti-goldsellers.

See, but that's a personal goal, not the point of the game. Very few MMOs are designed as a race to the cap. If they were designed as such, then there would be some kind of leaderboard or ranking system for it. In MMOs, everyone reaches the end so that's an odd goal to set for yourself in an MMO to begin with.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  AdamTM

Novice Member

Joined: 5/05/05
Posts: 1395

I'M PUNCHING YOUR SALAD!!!!

10/14/12 9:15:49 PM#64
Originally posted by fenistil
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by fenistil
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by GeezerGamer

The whole point behind MMOs started with the idea that you have t owork towards something. You want it? You go get it. You find like minded players who want it too and you work together to achieve it. Today's games and games with cash shops completely undermine that whole concept at it's very core.

It would indeed undermine it, if the point was what you said. Luckily it isn't. I'm quite amazed you think thats the point of MMOs.

Point of any game is to provide entertaiment.  Difftent people find entertaiment in difftent things and his 'point' is quite common and cash shop indeed hurt it.

You are correct that the point of any game is to provide entertainment and that different things entertain different people, however you are confusing point with playstyle.

Not necessarily.  Of course it boild down to personal choices and playstyle if use CS or not, or how to play a game at all. Still someone else working to achieve something in same game I play that use cash shop to get it - is for me like using cheats and undermine whole point I even play games in first place.  Exactly same reason I am extremly anti-bot and anti-goldsellers.

It's like sports.  In example in high-school I was running sprints. I did that because I liked it, because I liked to get better at it and I did it for competition.   Taking out any of those things would sooner or later make me drop it.  It kinda did.

Same thing with CS and mmoppg's. 

Its nothing like sports.

The games do not owe you to be fair in a direct competition or to conform to your vision of them. There is no international MMO assosication/league with rules and standards.

You are sharing space with hundreds or thousands of other players, your preference for competition is not more important than their lack of preference in that regard.

Yes some games require you to pay money to stay competitive, suck it up.

  thinktank001

Elite Member

Joined: 12/13/08
Posts: 1884

10/14/12 10:11:25 PM#65
Originally posted by Quirhid
  1. Free trials are often very restricted and the access limited. The barrier for F2P or freemium games is lower.
  2. F2P does not automatically mean P2W.
  3. What was said about F2P bringing more competition is true. They very much compete with P2P games.

 

1.  How is that any different than having to purchase the cash shop items from another player or grinding quests for points to unlock it from the cash shop?  

 

2.  Yes it does.  F2P is a marketing term used to describe the cash shop business model (P2W).  

 

3.  If that was true WoW would have had a declining population for years. 

 

+++++++++++++++++++++

 

IMHO, the only good thing that the P2W business model has given MMO players is it forces developers to actually release a fully fuctional game.      

 

  Waterlily

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/26/08
Posts: 2897

10/15/12 12:57:04 AM#66
Most F2P games are horrible. I have no interest in games that ask me for money every 5 minutes.
  Krovlar

Novice Member

Joined: 11/10/06
Posts: 3

10/15/12 9:22:45 AM#67
Originally posted by TangentPoint
Originally posted by Valerosus
I tend to just lurk on this site but honestly I'm getting a little tired of seeing these threads.

Then go back to lurking and don't read them. No one forces you to click on a link and read a thread you're not interested in.

Simple, right?

The OP makes a valid point, and one that is becoming increasingly clear to more and more people as time goes on.

F2P is intended to "milk" players for all the developer can. They are designed that way, and this is a known fact. The result is that more effort goes into finding ways to monetize players through deliberately imposed limitations, speed-bumps and handicaps which can all be "paid away" via cash shop purchases, than is going into finding new and interesting ways to actually entertain the players enough for them to actually want to stick around and play month after month.

The players are steadily beginning to realize it and are becoming more and more vocal about it. This is a good thing.

Regarding the OP, I personally hope the industry soon hits a point where that "bubble" bursts, big publishers decide MMOs aren't a good place for them, they all run and dig their greedy fingers into the social-gaming scene, and get the hell out of MMOs. They've done more than enough damage at this point already.

Then we can get back to having MMORPGs designed by gamers who understand the genre, where it came from and it was intended to be. I'd prefer that over them being designed by market analysts, bean counters and suits who are couldn't shoot their way out of a wet-paper bag with instructions and a starter hole, because they'd be more concerned about how much doing so would affect their bottom line.

MMORPGs have become a cash grab to the big game developers and publishers, and the players are nothing more than open wallets to them.

My favorite part about posts like this is that people believe that the old great MMOs were made by indie devs. Ultima Online was created by Origin Systems, a subsidiary of EA and a rather known RPG development studio famous for it's Ultima games. Everquest was created by SOE, or SONY Online Entertainment, the MMO arm of one of the worlds biggest hardware manufacturers (technically it was originally called 989 Studios, a Sony development house, and SOE was only the publisher). The other big MMO of the "Big Three" was Asheron's Call, developed by Turbine. Yes the same Turbine that created Lord of the Rings Online. After that the trend continues for the most part.

 

The other funny thing is, when you ask people that "if you prefer the old games, why not just play them?" their answer usually has to do with how unbearable the graphics are in this day and age. Then they want an indie developer to make the MMO of their dreams not realizing the graphics are most likely going to look like Ultima Online or Everquest while the game is SUPER deep, or it's going to look like Darkfall while the game is much more shallow. It comes down to development time, and what you choose to spend it on/how many of what kind of person are you hiring. We will never have a game like Ultima Online with the graphics of GW2, at least not in my lifetime. Big studios won't touch a game that deep and unforgiving, and indies can't do both graphics and depth with the capital they have.

  fenistil

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/11
Posts: 3016

10/15/12 10:00:29 AM#68
Originally posted by AdamTM
Originally posted by fenistil
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by fenistil
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by GeezerGamer

The whole point behind MMOs started with the idea that you have t owork towards something. You want it? You go get it. You find like minded players who want it too and you work together to achieve it. Today's games and games with cash shops completely undermine that whole concept at it's very core.

It would indeed undermine it, if the point was what you said. Luckily it isn't. I'm quite amazed you think thats the point of MMOs.

Point of any game is to provide entertaiment.  Difftent people find entertaiment in difftent things and his 'point' is quite common and cash shop indeed hurt it.

You are correct that the point of any game is to provide entertainment and that different things entertain different people, however you are confusing point with playstyle.

Not necessarily.  Of course it boild down to personal choices and playstyle if use CS or not, or how to play a game at all. Still someone else working to achieve something in same game I play that use cash shop to get it - is for me like using cheats and undermine whole point I even play games in first place.  Exactly same reason I am extremly anti-bot and anti-goldsellers.

It's like sports.  In example in high-school I was running sprints. I did that because I liked it, because I liked to get better at it and I did it for competition.   Taking out any of those things would sooner or later make me drop it.  It kinda did.

Same thing with CS and mmoppg's. 

Its nothing like sports.

The games do not owe you to be fair in a direct competition or to conform to your vision of them. There is no international MMO assosication/league with rules and standards.

You are sharing space with hundreds or thousands of other players, your preference for competition is not more important than their lack of preference in that regard.

Yes some games require you to pay money to stay competitive, suck it up.

I have not said anything about anyone 'owing' me anything.  I simple personally perceive any game like that and that's why I don't like cash shops. That's why I only consider playing mmorpg's that does not require money to stay competetive or to achieve anything or achieve faster.

I don't have to suck anything up - I can simply not play games that are not providing fair game design and I don't play such mmorpg's. 

 

  Manestream

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/10/03
Posts: 567

10/15/12 2:49:12 PM#69
Originally posted by Calerxes
Originally posted by Manestream
Not really, if a game comes out thats classed as an F2P, I and i know at least a dozen or so other people do not even look at it (usually stay well clear). If a P2P game goes into F2P mode you know its time to leave or that the days are numbered. They only go into this mode because its been a failure and that they just want to milk the loyal supporters of as much as they can before finally hammering the nail in the coffin and laying it to rest.

 

So you avoid certain games just because of a label? you are missing out on lots of great and free gaming but as they say ignorance is bliss. 

Nah, not missing out at all, we did play some 3-4yrs back, but it was ending up costing alot more to play those games than a monthly fee would and really started to feel like the players for those games were being milked. Now, we just dont bother with them as we do know what would happen, end up being milked and as soon as that drops to below a point the game will cease.

  f0dell54

Novice Member

Joined: 4/16/12
Posts: 311

Sanity....
It's for the weak.

10/15/12 3:01:03 PM#70
Originally posted by TangentPoint
Originally posted by Azaron_Nightblade
Originally posted by Calerxes 

OP has no point other than venting his frustration at Aion EU. Explain to me how giving your game client away and allowing players to make the choice of playing for free or paying is "milking" the playerbase? I'd say having to pay to actually log in is more akin to milking the playerbase but even that isn't really what they are doing is it? I also love the idea of the cash grab its so simple isn't it make a new MMO and just watch the money roll in, I'm sure we could all do it couldn't we its so easy? 

I think most people who rage about cash shops want -everything- for free, or in some cases they can live with a monthly sub that everyone pays, as long as their neighbor doesn't show up with his new, fancy cash store bought armor skin - which they actually want but don't want to pay for since it would mean eating one donut less =P

Any more strawmen where those came from?

Reasons have been given, time and again, in this thread and elsewhere - clearly explained and detailed - as to why people don't like Cash Shops and specifically what they have against them.

Maybe you should actually read what people are saying, instead of attempting to speak for them? Just a thought.

 

Here's the thing if companies didn't make money using this type of payment option then they wouldn't use it. Does that make sense? Saying that they are milk costumers and complaining about the business model doesn't solve anything. Again, if the majority of gamers where against such models and they weren’t profitable because of that reason, then no company would ever use them.

Sorry about all you bitchers are in the minority. If you don't like the sub model then play the games. No one is forcing you to log on. Find something that suits your needs.

Now, please come with the flames. I enjoy reading your post that prove absolutely nothing besides that you aren’t happy.

One more thread that proves that common sense isn’t all that common. Thanks for the laughs all.

  madazz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/07/03
Posts: 1312

10/15/12 3:23:22 PM#71
Originally posted by ChrisReitz
Thats why every other p2p game is going f2p cause its a "trend". P2P is dying.

And one could say the same about F2P games closing shortly after going F2P. Of course, this stands true mostly for western MMO's more so than eastern.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4845

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

10/15/12 3:29:01 PM#72
Originally posted by madazz
Originally posted by ChrisReitz
Thats why every other p2p game is going f2p cause its a "trend". P2P is dying.

And one could say the same about F2P games closing shortly after going F2P. Of course, this stands true mostly for western MMO's more so than eastern.

 In order for there to be a trend you need several examples of a particular thing happening.  What westen based (as you say) f2p game has closed besides Coh?

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  kaiser3282

Tipster

Joined: 5/21/08
Posts: 2648

10/15/12 3:39:03 PM#73
Originally posted by madazz
Originally posted by ChrisReitz
Thats why every other p2p game is going f2p cause its a "trend". P2P is dying.

And one could say the same about F2P games closing shortly after going F2P. Of course, this stands true mostly for western MMO's more so than eastern.

The only game to make this conversion and shut down is CoH. Which would have been shut down anyway even if it had stayed P2P. NCSoft just didnt feel it was profitable enough with either model.

  kaiser3282

Tipster

Joined: 5/21/08
Posts: 2648

10/15/12 3:44:02 PM#74
Originally posted by thinktank001
Originally posted by Quirhid
  1. Free trials are often very restricted and the access limited. The barrier for F2P or freemium games is lower.
  2. F2P does not automatically mean P2W.
  3. What was said about F2P bringing more competition is true. They very much compete with P2P games.

 

1.  How is that any different than having to purchase the cash shop items from another player or grinding quests for points to unlock it from the cash shop?  

 

2.  Yes it does.  F2P is a marketing term used to describe the cash shop business model (P2W).  

 

3.  If that was true WoW would have had a declining population for years. 

 

+++++++++++++++++++++

 

IMHO, the only good thing that the P2W business model has given MMO players is it forces developers to actually release a fully fuctional game.      

 

1. You're missing the point. A Free trial = IMPOSSIBLE to access that content. F2P = POSSIBLE to access that content, wether you like the method or not.

2. Your lack of knowledge and experience is kind of amusing. Yes there are P2W games out there, but there are also F2P games that are not P2W games. Thats a simple fact, not something that can be argued. Just because you may not have played them or don't know anything about them does not mean they aren't there.

3. That would actually make the slightest bit of sense if there werent also tons of P2P games being released which ALSO have little to no impact on WoW subs. WoW is the exception, not the rule. The rest of the games, both P2P and F2P are very much competing with eachother.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

10/15/12 3:51:18 PM#75
Originally posted by Valerosus
I tend to just lurk on this site but honestly I'm getting a little tired of seeing these threads.

Well, there's was a thread attempting to equate milking to subscriptions not too long ago.

They should find each other, they'd be natural enemies.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19928

10/16/12 2:22:34 AM#76
Originally posted by fenistil
 

I have not said anything about anyone 'owing' me anything.  I simple personally perceive any game like that and that's why I don't like cash shops. That's why I only consider playing mmorpg's that does not require money to stay competetive or to achieve anything or achieve faster.

I don't have to suck anything up - I can simply not play games that are not providing fair game design and I don't play such mmorpg's. 

 

No problem. It is your perogative to choose whatever you want to play.

I, OTOH, have no such restrictions. I don't mind other to buy stuff in a PvE game. Not only that does not decrease my enjoyment, it often increases it .. since a) they subsidize my game and make it free for me (and hence i feel no pressure to actually play and can hop from game to game), and b) that i welcome potential group mates who are actually geared.

 

 

  ariasaitcho

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/20/12
Posts: 112

10/16/12 2:46:07 PM#77
Originally posted by thinktank001
Originally posted by F2Pshill

Players can pay if they want to play it like a normal game, or simply not pay and stick with their P2P game.  

 

Huh??

 

I am blonde so I get confused easily. But if I'm reading this right, you're saying I can choose to not spend any money on a F2P game and continue to spend money on P2P?

 

I certainly cannot claim to know everything, here's what I do know. Games of varying quality have been released. Poor games have been released with both P2P and F2P business models. While the developer of any one particular game is no guide to the quality of said game, it is true that some developers have a reputation of actually listening to the players. This is a truth that applies to both F2P and P2P releases.

 

Milking? How about this model for milking? $59 for a box, $15 per mo sub, $25-59 for "expansions" (isn't that what the sub fees are supposed to be for?), play for 2-3 years with maybe 1 or two epansions and you've paid $717 - 537! Moooo!

 

Myself? I've spent a grand total of $20 in the past year on one game. I've had fun, I'm not completely out classed by the cash shop players when I choose to pvp. And the grinding I'm doing isn't that much more than someone with lots of exp bonus cash shop items.

 

Finally, community has nothing to do with whether or not a game is P2P or F2P. It has everything to do with the people in the game, and the relations the publisher/developer has with those people. The GTFO N00b!, y u mad bro?; crowd are a pestelince in all games, F2P and P2P alike. Here's a clue, don't involve yourself with them. If you have no dealings with that ilk the game is much better. And if for some reason you must have dealings with them, then accomplish whatever the goal is and move on without comment. If you can't do that, then you'll have a really hard time out in the real world. Where you have to work with someone you don't like, for 8+ hours a day. Everyday. For years. Or until you find another job. Where you'll have to work with someone you don't like.

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