Originally posted by Roxtarr

Originally posted by roo67

Theres a BIG difference between the Asian and western free to play models . Personally I prefer free to play to subscription models because I can just play the content when I want to without worrying whether I'm getting value for money .

As for it dieing don't make me laugh if anything its growing .

Interesting thought.  I guess I hadn't really looked at the differences between eastern and western cash shops.  I would say that cash shops are an evolving creature that hasn't yet reached it's peak.  There is such a fine line betwen a cash shop that can't generate revenue and a cash shop that is pay to win.  Not an easy task, to be sure.  It's been successful in Asia for years and is still somewhat frowned upon in the West.  I do think, however, that Western companies are finally getting a grip on how to  do them correctly. 

I agree. Western implementation, for the most part at least, has been much better than the Eastern version, which is typically P2W. Unfortunately the Eastern / P2W style has been around longer and in many more games and so the whole P2W stigma still sticks to anything dubbed F2P.

Some Western games have gone down the road of becoming P2W, but we also have some great examples of how to do it right without making a game P2W and also offering alternatives to spending real money (like farming and exchanging in game gold, or earning Favor through playing like in DDO).

News Flash!

A company's goal is to make money, more at 11 Jim.

I'd like to jump in and comment on this.

I've been unemployed for a while now, and because of that the only mmos that I play are f2p. And after playing so many of them lately, I've come to change my mind about how we pay for these things. I used to prefer flat subs, but now, I dont really care for them.

Partially its because I cant really afford one atm, sure. But also because, when you think about what you are actually getting for your sub money, you might realise that just "access to servers", having customer support for one or two help requests in 4 years or a shallow bug fix or new dungeon every few months (or a proper expansion, which is payed in full and seperately btw) isnt really worth 15 dollars every month.

But with f2p, when you pay for something, you know exactly what you are getting. 5 dollars, I got another character slot. 10 dollars, I got the latest expansion pack content. Another 5 for a few cosmetic items. And then, for 4 or 5 months, I pay nothing more, because I dont want XP potions, I dont want the other cosmetics, I dont want whatever else they are selling. In those 4 months where I am just enjoying what I got for 20 dollars a wow player spends 60. If its a slow period, that player probably got no new content updates. If he's careful and/or lucky, he wont need customer support.

So whats the better deal then? You can tell me that wow is a better game than Fallen Earth, Champions Online or Vanguard, but take all the bells and whistles away, and the differences get murky.

Living without a job for as long as I have been made me appreciate the other side of mmo gaming, and its not as thorny as you might think.

Originally posted by strangepower

News Flash!

A company's goal is to make money, more at 11 Jim.

I LOL'd at this.  Based on what I frequently read from some gamers, I think they prefer no sub and no cash shop.  Just free everthing.  What could possibly go wrong?

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by NortonGB

Ok here's an example: Aion is far better than many of the newer games and yet all Gameforge EU want to do it maintain a low cost support with only one dedicated programmer who has no time to do what is needed. Every week their cash shop is updated with months of delays for simple ncsoft patches, even a simple bug fix takes months.

Thats not realy exclusive to F2P, there are plenty of P2P games that went like that a long time as well. Vanguard before it went F2P this summer is a good example, it had nearly no updates whatsoever for 3 years.

Vanguard received no updates for 3 years because it was barely even on SOE's radar for all that time. They had it tucked away in a dark corner with a few people checking in on it once in a while, throwing the players a little glimmer of hope that SOE still cared, so they'd keep playing. Vanguard's situation was one of pure neglect.

Not nearly the same situation as Aion's. 

SOE did the same thing with Matrix Online, only they eventually just pulled the plug on that one.

P2P MMOs in full service mode, receiving full interest, attention and support of their developers will never go even remotely that long without updates, be it smaller content patches, or major expansions, or both.

I am not that found of F2P myself, but it is not how you as customers pay the companies that affect how large team a game have or how much money a company invest in it from launch.

F2Ps bad side is that it generally is actually more expensive to play them at the endgame than P2P and that it often becomes pay2win. And it is fun disliking F2P, after all have companies like EA and Activision ideas to make all computer games F2P and they hardly say that out of kindness. They expect more profit, preferably a lot more. And we will have to pay for it. Personally do I think this instead will lead to a second comming of software pirates and we might get back to the old C-64 and Amiga days where almost all games were pirated.

So I dont like F2P games either, but dont blame the payment method on stuff it have nothing to do with. If Aion have a small crew it is because it doesnt have enough players/income and changing the model back to P2P would change nothing.

The problem, though, is that  the core design of the game is tied in very closely and deliberately with the cash shop. F2P MMOs are designed from the ground up to make cash shop purchases seem as appealing and compulsory as possible, without becoming out right "mandatory". That is, at least not mandatory where the game itself is concerned. The players, through good old-fashioned peer pressure, will usually handle the part of deeming things "mandatory". The players are handling that ugly aspect of it, so the developers don't have to worry about it.

So, when you play a F2P MMO, every moment you are logged in and playing, there is some part of the game that is designed to make you think about the cash shop. It might be how weak and ineffective those world-drop HP and MP potions you're using are becoming compared to much better ones in the cash shop. It might be how limited your inventory space is considering all the stuff the game is requiring you to carry around, oh but they sell inventory expansions in the cash shop. It might be how slow or temporary your in-game mount is, compared to the one you can buy from the cash shop that is faster and has longer use time. It might be how slow the xp curve becomes as you progress, making those XP Potions in the cash shop look really damn tempting.

And let's not forget the ever-present cash-shop ads, buttons and reminders showing up while you're playing telling you about sales! and limited time specials you really shouldn't miss out on!  That one's straight out of TV advertising. "Act Now! This offer won't last forever!". A lot of people fall for that kind of "I might miss out!" kind of marketing. Impulse buying ftw?

And so on and so on and so on...

Oh, and why do you think they go with a system of cash shop tokens, instead of just using real currency? Here's another question. Why do you think Casinos do the same thing?

That's my biggest and primary issue with Cash Shop MMOs, and it's what I mean when I say they're designed to attempt to monetize you every moment you're logged in. It's not always in your face. In fact, most times it's very subtle. But it's there. Constantly.

 

Originally posted by NortonGB

Ok here's an example: Aion is far better than many of the newer games and yet all Gameforge EU want to do it maintain a low cost support with only one dedicated programmer who has no time to do what is needed. Every week their cash shop is updated with months of delays for simple ncsoft patches, even a simple bug fix takes months.

Honestly, ditch the EU Aion and go to the US one, where you can actually get something done without having to pay a fortune for it, and where the updates are reasonable - I've seen tons of European players make the switch.

More on topic, I think the ingame "cash shops" actually improve the quality of today's games, they inspire (and more importanly fund) developers to add way more stuff than they would have in the past - and if somehing is added that is of no interest to you? Simply don't buy it.

As someone already mentioned before, we are spoiled as gamers nowadays, MMO's update much more frequently than they used to.

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Originally posted by Roxtarr

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Originally posted by strangepower News Flash! A company's goal is to make money, more at 11 Jim.

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I LOL'd at this.  Based on what I frequently read from some gamers, I think they prefer no sub and no cash shop.  Just free everthing.  What could possibly go wrong?

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Yes, the scary part is one day the world will be run by adults who were never spanked as kids and got trophies just for participating.

Originally posted by TangentPoint

Originally posted by Valerosus
I tend to just lurk on this site but honestly I'm getting a little tired of seeing these threads.

Then go back to lurking and don't read them. No one forces you to click on a link and read a thread you're not interested in.

Simple, right?

The OP makes a valid point, and one that is becoming increasingly clear to more and more people as time goes on.

F2P is intended to "milk" players for all the developer can. They are designed that way, and this is a known fact. The result is that more effort goes into finding ways to monetize players through deliberately imposed limitations, speed-bumps and handicaps which can all be "paid away" via cash shop purchases, than is going into finding new and interesting ways to actually entertain the players enough for them to actually want to stick around and play month after month.

The players are steadily beginning to realize it and are becoming more and more vocal about it. This is a good thing.

Regarding the OP, I personally hope the industry soon hits a point where that "bubble" bursts, big publishers decide MMOs aren't a good place for them, they all run and dig their greedy fingers into the social-gaming scene, and get the hell out of MMOs. They've done more than enough damage at this point already.

Then we can get back to having MMORPGs designed by gamers who understand the genre, where it came from and it was intended to be. I'd prefer that over them being designed by market analysts, bean counters and suits who are couldn't shoot their way out of a wet-paper bag with instructions and a starter hole, because they'd be more concerned about how much doing so would affect their bottom line.

MMORPGs have become a cash grab to the big game developers and publishers, and the players are nothing more than open wallets to them.

OP has no point other than venting his frustration at Aion EU. Explain to me how giving your game client away and allowing players to make the choice of playing for free or paying is "milking" the playerbase? I'd say having to pay to actually log in is more akin to milking the playerbase but even that isn't really what they are doing is it? I also love the idea of the cash grab its so simple isn't it make a new MMO and just watch the money roll in, I'm sure we could all do it couldn't we its so easy? 

Originally posted by Roxtarr

Originally posted by strangepower

News Flash!

A company's goal is to make money, more at 11 Jim.

I LOL'd at this.  Based on what I frequently read from some gamers, I think they prefer no sub and no cash shop.  Just free everthing.  What could possibly go wrong?

Yeah, shame on companies and their employees for actually being human and needing a source of income not only to keep the game going (and updated), but also more importantly themselves.

Obviously they should get an extra job so that they can pay for the costs of keeping everything running and every freeloader can play the game for free.

Originally posted by Calerxes

Originally posted by TangentPoint
 

 

OP has no point other than venting his frustration at Aion EU. Explain to me how giving your game client away and allowing players to make the choice of playing for free or paying is "milking" the playerbase? I'd say having to pay to actually log in is more akin to milking the playerbase but even that isn't really what they are doing is it? I also love the idea of the cash grab its so simple isn't it make a new MMO and just watch the money roll in, I'm sure we could all do it couldn't we its so easy? 

I've already given examples of how they're milking the players in this thread, and in others. Others have as well. If you're going to ignore all those points, while cherry picking only the ones you feel you can argue against, then there's really no point in repeating myself. I've already given examples of why and how they do it.

Go back and read my post(s) if you want your answer. Read others' as well. Some do a much better job of explaining it than I do.

The point isn't that they're milking players. The point is that they're trying very hard to do so at all.

The OP is doing a lot more than just venting frustration at Aion EU. You seem to be cherry-picking their post as well.

Originally posted by Calerxes 

OP has no point other than venting his frustration at Aion EU. Explain to me how giving your game client away and allowing players to make the choice of playing for free or paying is "milking" the playerbase? I'd say having to pay to actually log in is more akin to milking the playerbase but even that isn't really what they are doing is it? I also love the idea of the cash grab its so simple isn't it make a new MMO and just watch the money roll in, I'm sure we could all do it couldn't we its so easy? 

I think most people who rage about cash shops want -everything- for free, or in some cases they can live with a monthly sub that everyone pays, as long as their neighbor doesn't show up with his new, fancy cash store bought armor skin - which they actually want but don't want to pay for since it would mean eating one donut less =P

Originally posted by Azaron_Nightblade

Originally posted by Calerxes 

OP has no point other than venting his frustration at Aion EU. Explain to me how giving your game client away and allowing players to make the choice of playing for free or paying is "milking" the playerbase? I'd say having to pay to actually log in is more akin to milking the playerbase but even that isn't really what they are doing is it? I also love the idea of the cash grab its so simple isn't it make a new MMO and just watch the money roll in, I'm sure we could all do it couldn't we its so easy? 

I think most people who rage about cash shops want -everything- for free, or in some cases they can live with a monthly sub that everyone pays, as long as their neighbor doesn't show up with his new, fancy cash store bought armor skin - which they actually want but don't want to pay for since it would mean eating one donut less =P

Any more strawmen where those came from?

Reasons have been given, time and again, in this thread and elsewhere - clearly explained and detailed - as to why people don't like Cash Shops and specifically what they have against them.

Maybe you should actually read what people are saying, instead of attempting to speak for them? Just a thought.

Originally posted by Roxtarr

If NCSoft has proven anything it's that they won't keep a game running that doesn't make money (i.e., City of Heroes).

NCSoft's pretty much gone beyond that, from everything the players have dug up, including one of the developers of the former Paragon Studios who said "But we were doing so well!", the game was actually still profitable - it just wasn't profitable enough for NCSoft, which is why in all their press releases you will find no mention of it no longer being financially viable, instead they call it a "realignment of company focus".

Originally posted by TangentPoint

The point isn't that they're milking players. The point is that they're trying very hard to do so at all.

No, the point is that people have no restraint whatsoever when it comes to their disposable income.

People will waste their disposable income on all kinds of ridiculous shit, from Vodka with gold-flakes in it, to brand-clothing. If the people who pay in the cash-shop wouldn't enjoy their items/products/services they wouldn't pay for them. 

Every company in existence is "miliking" you on your desires.

Capitalism is inherrently exploitative, get with the program.

Originally posted by TangentPoint

Originally posted by Calerxes

Originally posted by TangentPoint
 

 

OP has no point other than venting his frustration at Aion EU. Explain to me how giving your game client away and allowing players to make the choice of playing for free or paying is "milking" the playerbase? I'd say having to pay to actually log in is more akin to milking the playerbase but even that isn't really what they are doing is it? I also love the idea of the cash grab its so simple isn't it make a new MMO and just watch the money roll in, I'm sure we could all do it couldn't we its so easy? 

I've already given examples of how they're milking the players in this thread, and in others. Others have as well. If you're going to ignore all those points, while cherry picking only the ones you feel you can argue against, then there's really no point in repeating myself. I've already given examples of why and how they do it.

Go back and read my post(s) if you want your answer. Read others' as well. Some do a much better job of explaining it than I do.

The point isn't that they're milking players. The point is that they're trying very hard to do so at all.

The OP is doing a lot more than just venting frustration at Aion EU. You seem to be cherry-picking their post as well.

Your points are irrelevant as there is always choice in the matter and if there is choice the comapnies cannot milk players. Milking customers can only be done when there is no choice in the matter like with utility companies you cannot live without, gas, electricity, water etc.. so you have no argument.

EDIT:

As Adam points out companies just play on your desires to get you spend money, so learn to control yourself and companies lose that control over you, simple really.

Originally posted by TangentPoint

Any more strawmen where those came from?

Reasons have been given, time and again, in this thread and elsewhere - clearly explained and detailed - as to why people don't like Cash Shops and specifically what they have against them.

Maybe you should actually read what people are saying, instead of attempting to speak for them? Just a thought.

 

I read them, and you pretty much fall into the example of the neighbor with the fancy armor category. ;)

You also basically told another poster to shut up when he disagreed with the topic, why can't you apply your own logic to the cash shops you have no interest in - don't buy from them.

Your envy is pretty much based on the assumption that you WOULD get that fancy armor too under a P2P system, while it's quite likely it wouldn't even exist then because the extra resources didn't get put into it. But I'm guessing it would be a better solution eh? Since no one would have it then.

Originally posted by Calerxes

Your points are irrelevant as there is always choice in the matter and if there is choice the comapnies cannot milk players. Milking customers can only be done when there is no choice in the matter like with utility companies you cannot live without, gas, electricity, water etc.. so you have no argument.

EDIT:

As Adam points out companies just play on your desires to get you spend money, so learn to control yourself and companies lose that control over you, simple really.

Pretty much that.

Most of the MMO's that I've played had very manageable restrictions (you couldn't play certain classes or races unless you unlocked them) or were without limitations whatsoever and purely made their money from cosmetics in the shop (US) Aion (not the money grubbing abomination GameForge runs).

Originally posted by worldalpha
Let's hope F2P isn't dead yet.  I gotta release my game first! :)

And good luck with that, by the way!  

Originally posted by Roxtarr

Originally posted by worldalpha
Let's hope F2P isn't dead yet.  I gotta release my game first! :)

And good luck with that, by the way!  

I doubt this will happen anytime soon, Alpha.

And goodluck indeed!