Action games are too popular nowadays. So much that every RPG has to be an action game at least partially. I don't mind good ARPGs like Witcher 2, GW2 and New Vegas, but I do miss the days of more tactical games. That's why X-COM is so awesome, even if it's not as complex as JA or Silent Storm.

That being said, I don't think new games are made only for morons. Often they're pretty balanced experiences, with harder things like dungeons mixed in easy general PvE. For example, I'd say GW2's and TSW's dungeons are just as difficult as those of older games like AO and both GW2 and TSW are very deep when it comes to build-making. They just don't allow you to screw up as badly as older games did.

I have to agree with the OP, I've retreated back into EVE for the near term as it's the only MMO that's managed to hold my interest for any length of time in the past 6 years.

I've got hope for a few titles on the horizon, but suspect I may be playing EVE on and off for many years to come.

They just don't build MMORPG's like they used to.....  and they probably never will again.

Originally posted by roo67
I think MMOs are going downhill generally speaking . The problem I think is that devlopers think they have to make the games easy to appeal to novice and casual gamers .

^

+1

Originally posted by Eazydzzz

Give up.  Seriously.  Playing Anarchy Online, Asheron's Call, hell even PSO.  That's all done.

Remember when PC games made you think.  Like really think?

PC games were for the smart people, sans diablo and warcraft of course.

Deep, mentally engaging games that only a few understood.

Remember being a nerd was actually an insult?  It didn't just mean you were some tight pants, hard rimed glasses wearing poser?

Being a "nerd" was not a trendy term, it was what you got called by the jocks as a serious insult.  YOu could be a pussy and take it for what it was, or wear it as a badge of honor and find ingenious ways to  have sex with their sisters/mothers/girlfriends.

Remember when you played an mmo in 1999 and thought "man I wonder what these games will be like in 10 years"?

Did you picture pandas?  Did you picture a mindless pvp zerg gw2 grind?  Did you picture psuedo pedophlia mixed with wanna-be action combat a la tera?

The Secret World is the only game that comes even remotely close to dreams.  But it sells nothing.  It's not even worth.

When you watched star trek and imagined it as a virtual world, did you you picture STO??

The first time you saw an original star wars movie, could you picture SWTOR?

SWTOR is a destruction of dreams.

 

But then I saw the video of the dude who made wing commander games wanting to make a new game.  His vision is the vision.  His vision of pc gaming in 2012 is accurate.  What he wants to do is what should be done.  It's what we should fork over our hard earned cash for.  A sophisticated experience. 

Not this gear grinding repetative garbage.  Made for complete fucking morons.

 

I find it sad that when I sit down for video game time, and I maybe have an hour to play, that I end up playing a game that was released in 1994 over the plethora of modern games I have at my disposal.

The fact that an "old school" game can be more mentally stimulating than a new game is sad.

what happened .. i didnt get that 

look at it this way: the gameplay+graphics package is constant ove time. graphics progressed a lot. where does it leave us ?

in the past, gameplay was suplementing poor graphics. you had to have something to drive your imagination. you did not think in terms of looks but in terms of abilities.

present games all think in terms of how things look, not how they work.

Originally posted by Eazydzzz

......................... and find ingenious ways to  have sex with their sisters/mothers/girlfriends....................

Daddy!

Originally posted by XAPGames

Originally posted by Eazydzzz

Remember when you played an mmo in 1999 and thought "man I wonder what these games will be like in 10 years"?
 

 

Was playing Half-Life and Vanilla Unreal in 1999.

Wondered what games will be like in 10 years?  Yep.  Can't say I'm impressed.

 

Graphics have jumped.  Gameplay... not so much.

People like you who live in the past please have no idea. The games today are improved if not better than the old games. Nostalgia makes everything you used to play seem better, but it's the opposite.

Originally posted by roo67
I think MMOs are going downhill generally speaking . The problem I think is that devlopers think they have to make the games easy to appeal to novice and casual gamers .

Imagine investing millions into designing/creating a game and only a couple of thousands players subscribe because it's too hardcore. Developers have to eat too.

Originally posted by Eazydzzz

The fact that an "old school" game can be more mentally stimulating than a new game is sad.

 

 

Chess has always been more mentally stimulating than tic-tac-toe, or Candyland.

....I'm not sure what point you're trying to reach; I'm just sure this is not a good thesis conclusion.

Originally posted by haplo602

in the past, gameplay was suplementing poor graphics. you had to have something to drive your imagination. you did not think in terms of looks but in terms of abilities.

So...non-graphical games would be the most 'mentally stimulating' of all, automagically?

Bring back those text-based MUDs!

Originally posted by kb056
SWG died almost a year ago. Won't ever happen again...

I feel that true MMO's died the night SWG was shut down. I hope lyin' smed is seriously building a true sandbox in the new EQ game. But, I am not holding my breath.

Take a break.

Come back and see if EQNext lives up to it's billing.

Originally posted by bigsmiff

Originally posted by kb056
SWG died almost a year ago. Won't ever happen again...

I feel that true MMO's died the night SWG was shut down. I hope lyin' smed is seriously building a true sandbox in the new EQ game. But, I am not holding my breath.

I feel a Don Mclean moment coming on.  I can see all the nostalgists holding hands and swaying in the breeze, the summer breeze.

Probably the most ironic thing about this thread is that, apart from maybe Eve, MMOs have never really been all that challenging. The hardest part of MMOs, for a long time, has either been in getting enough decent players to login for a raid, or to get that lucky drop that allows you to do the next thing. I can't remember a single MMO that really required all that much thought, even thinking back to the very first games.

What made them fun was that they were still a new concept to explore. However, when it came to difficulty, they were nowhere near on par w/ most of the other genres. This isn't to say that certain games didn't have more difficult raids, but by & large MMOs were primarily very easy games. The 'skill' came in either knowing what to get & where to get it, or being able to use a search engine to find the right guides.

This isn't to say that MMOs haven't been dumbed down to a certain degree. I think that much is obvious. The unfortunate truth is that any game that relies on having a healthy population to survive is going to have to appeal to a larger audience. Meaning sacrifices are going to have to be made in the name of accessibility. Sadly, this often means people need to be told what to do.

When it comes to other genres, we're actually seeing a return of legitimately difficult games again. It's very refreshing. I haven't enjoyed dying so much in a long time.

hey, i tend to stick with online games but also tend to wait for some sort of feedback (unless i am lucky enough to get in a beta/free play stage) running up to release of it.

Single player games, cough, aye, i admit, i tend to download them, if there worth anything i will purchase it, sadly most are not worth it at all. There are currently 2 games i am wanting to check out, but just the fact that they are assosciated with steam puts me off (xcom and skyrim). skyrim is currently £20 but i wont bother untill it drops by at least 25% more just for the fact of it being associated with steam. xcom (new game) also assosciated with steam would have to drop down to under £20 as well.

Other games i have looked at have been crap, alias i still stick with online mmo's (just to pass the time), but quickly getting bored of whats out there as any new release is basically a seen that done it same old crap with diff graphics.

Originally posted by Manestream

hey, i tend to stick with online games but also tend to wait for some sort of feedback (unless i am lucky enough to get in a beta/free play stage) running up to release of it.

Single player games, cough, aye, i admit, i tend to download them, if there worth anything i will purchase it, sadly most are not worth it at all. There are currently 2 games i am wanting to check out, but just the fact that they are assosciated with steam puts me off (xcom and skyrim). skyrim is currently £20 but i wont bother untill it drops by at least 25% more just for the fact of it being associated with steam. xcom (new game) also assosciated with steam would have to drop down to under £20 as well.

Other games i have looked at have been crap, alias i still stick with online mmo's (just to pass the time), but quickly getting bored of whats out there as any new release is basically a seen that done it same old crap with diff graphics.

Woah woah woah..

Not sure what your beef is w/ steam, but there are a TON of really good games out right now if you are looking outside of the MMO-shere. XCOM does have some issues, but it's an insanely fun game and I haven't met a single person playing it who doesn't agree. There's also FTL, Dishonored, BL2, TL2, Mark of the Ninja, etc. etc.

I'm not sure how you can honestly think most of the games that have come out recently have all been crap, unless you just haven't been looking. These passed couple of months have been amazing for games. It's been a while since we had such a rich release year. I've actually had to hold off on buying games this year because there are just too many good games releasing all around the same time.

Even with all the games I've just mentioned, there are still more games coming out soon which also look to be rather amazing.

Originally posted by Eazydzzz

Give up.  Seriously.  Playing Anarchy Online, Asheron's Call, hell even PSO.  That's all done.

Remember when PC games made you think.  Like really think?

PC games were for the smart people, sans diablo and warcraft of course.

Deep, mentally engaging games that only a few understood.

Remember being a nerd was actually an insult?  It didn't just mean you were some tight pants, hard rimed glasses wearing poser?

Being a "nerd" was not a trendy term, it was what you got called by the jocks as a serious insult.  YOu could be a pussy and take it for what it was, or wear it as a badge of honor and find ingenious ways to  have sex with their sisters/mothers/girlfriends.

Remember when you played an mmo in 1999 and thought "man I wonder what these games will be like in 10 years"?

Did you picture pandas?  Did you picture a mindless pvp zerg gw2 grind?  Did you picture psuedo pedophlia mixed with wanna-be action combat a la tera?

The Secret World is the only game that comes even remotely close to dreams.  But it sells nothing.  It's not even worth.

When you watched star trek and imagined it as a virtual world, did you you picture STO??

The first time you saw an original star wars movie, could you picture SWTOR?

SWTOR is a destruction of dreams.

 

But then I saw the video of the dude who made wing commander games wanting to make a new game.  His vision is the vision.  His vision of pc gaming in 2012 is accurate.  What he wants to do is what should be done.  It's what we should fork over our hard earned cash for.  A sophisticated experience. 

Not this gear grinding repetative garbage.  Made for complete fucking morons.

 

I find it sad that when I sit down for video game time, and I maybe have an hour to play, that I end up playing a game that was released in 1994 over the plethora of modern games I have at my disposal.

The fact that an "old school" game can be more mentally stimulating than a new game is sad.

While your moron comment is over the top and uneeded you hit on a good point regarding what kinds of people play which games.  In the EQ / UO / AO era it was the "fantasy nerds" that played them because they were already actively looking for worlds like that and it was failry unknown to the general populace.  IMO the more prevalent MMO player today is less concerned about the fantasy portion and more about the mechanics, mainly to get better stuff by fighting bigger bad guys.  It's what I call the multiplayer console effect.  There is nothing wrong with people liking this type of game but it has certainly worn a lot of people thin, mainly those still interested more in fantasy settings.

Don't lose heart though.  I think those that have played nothing but streamlined versions of deep fantasy games are wanting more.  The "been there, done that" attitude is setting the stage for a return to deeper games with more to do.  In order to have that depth you need a deeper world to set it in, hence a richer experience.  Even though fantasy fans and progression fans are coming from opposite ends we may just yet find a home in the same type of game.

Originally posted by ENTR0PY

Originally posted by roo67
I think MMOs are going downhill generally speaking . The problem I think is that devlopers think they have to make the games easy to appeal to novice and casual gamers .

Imagine investing millions into designing/creating a game and only a couple of thousands players subscribe because it's too hardcore. Developers have to eat too.

Making a product for product gamers just doesn't work in long term on MMO market. They are there for experience and after that they are gone...

Other issue with game industry is that everyone is too afraid and the products are made by commitees. Trying to minimise the risks and maximise the audience, it does work with single player games, but it doesn't lead to innovation or long term success...

Maybe days of MMORPGs are over...

Originally posted by roo67
I think MMOs are going downhill generally speaking . The problem I think is that devlopers think they have to make the games easy to appeal to novice and casual gamers .

If you recall early Cataclysm, Blizzard envisioned a harder skill level for WoW and healing was especially made much harder. Problem was, many players could not adjust to the jarring level difficulty and quit in droves. So yes, I'd say you don't want to make the content too hard for casual gamers or at least don't go rollercoaster on the difficulty level.

Originally posted by trash656

My Picks

-- Baldur's Gate 1&2, Diablo 1&2, Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim (<-- Playing Right Now) - Best Single Player Rpg's

-- Delta Force, Operation Flashpoint. - Best FPS Games Ever

-- Everquest 1, Eve Online, SWG PRE NGE, Original WoW & Burning Crusade - Best MMO's Ever

 

PS: Check out Archeage if you havin't already if you are into Sandbox Games I highly reccomend checking that game out. It looks Promising.

 

Cheers,

-Trash

 

 

^ ^ I agree with the above almost fully. Except add 'Zelda: Ocarina of Time' to the single player rpg list.