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General Discussion  » Zenimax Online has crippled ESOs core player base

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  User Deleted
10/14/12 12:39:51 AM#41
Originally posted by Entinerint
Originally posted by Zylaxx
 

You honestly believe Zenimax is developing a game with a top end population of 250k players?

 

Delusional much?  It doesnt take a rocket scientist to use stats of potential players to reason they think alot of players will want to play.  From the TES single player gamers, to the MMO vets.

I don't see any polls you promised, just empty conjecture.

What I "believe" is that they began development in 2007, when the MMOG horizon was a gold rush of WoW-clones.  Now, after five years of development in one direction, that direction is now turning on them, and they will either adapt or die.

As their potetnial audience, we have only to wait and watch, and in the mean time to discuss to our heart's content.  Personally, I love train-wrecks, the slower, the better.

http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/80808

 

 

PvP has become a central part of any good MMOG. In fact, there are many players who play PvP almost exclusively as compared to the PvE content of the game world. My only comment is: who can blame them? The thrill of ganking some unsuspecting player fills me with joy. I know it's wrong, but I can't help it. Even though I enjoy raiding and exploring as much as the next person, there is something special about beating another player. There are few things better than knowing you are better than someone else, and it is even better when you get to laugh at them and dance on their poor weak-skilled dead bodies. But with so many pay-to-play MMOGs out there, which ones are the best for ultimate pwnage? Submitted for your approval is my list of the top ten PvP MMOGs.

 

 

 

10.Lord of the Rings Online
Lord of The Rings Onlineintroduced a new form of PvP, called PvM (Player vs Monster). The idea here is that players would not fight other players in a Lord of The Rings setting, so the developers had to find some way to let players face each other. Their answer was to allow players to create monsters that could fight players in certain areas. Monsters are not as strong as player characters, but players can strengthen them with Infamy and Destiny points, which they gain by killing players. While not a complex system, it's an interesting take on PvP, and one that works with the lore of the game. Plus, who doesn’t want to be a monster?

9.Age of Conan
Decapitations! That's all I should have to say here. You can decapitate enemy players. Let me say that again, "You can decapitate enemy players!" Great combination moves, stealth, mounted combat, and a robust combat system makes Conan a real treat for PvP. Blood actually splatters across your screen as it erupts from the necks of your foes. You can't ask for more than that. (Oh, and did I mention decapitations?) However, ranged classes sometimes have an advantage due to fewer keys to push for those awesome combo moves. (By Crom, the dev who thought that differing amounts of keystrokes for different classes was ok should be punished for eternity!) If it wasn’t for the button pushing imbalance, I would have ranked AOC higher on my list. Decapitations!

8.Guild Wars
Guild Wars has a fun and lighthearted PvP system. While lighthearted is seldom linked with PvP, it does work here. Players can enter PvP zones and participate in several different types of PvP. From gladiator style arena fights, to full alliance battles that shape the borders of the world, Guild Warsprovides fun and interesting PvP for players of all skill levels.

7.Lineage 2
Lineage 2 was built on PvP. Almost everything in the game relies on what happens with PvP. Lineage uses a Karma system to reward and punish players for their actions. Kill someone and you gain Karma; gain enough Karma and you turn red, meaning other players can kill you without consequences. The only way to work off your Karma is to get out there and kill mobs. So it's a constant balancing act of deciding who to attack, and making sure you can work off your Karma. Or learn how to run real fast!

 

 

 

6.Aion
Aiontook PvP in a new and interesting direction by adding in PvPvE. In Aion, players fight each other over fortress and map locations in the Abyss. This is your basic PvP fare, much like you’ll find in many other games out there. What Aiondoes that is unique, though, is add a third computer controlled faction into the mix. When one side takes a location, not only will enemy players defend it, but monsters under the control of AI will also attack, making the point harder to hold onto. This adds a twist for players who will now find it more difficult to hold a location than it was to take it.

5.Warhammer Online
Warhammer Online is a PvP dream. Few other games give you the ability to advance entirely through PvP. WAR breaks down the PvP by areas to keep veterans from ganking newbs, but outside of that, you can PvP to your heart’s content. With keeps to capture, scenarios to play, and cities to besiege, Warhammer Onlinegives players several different ways to get their PvP fix. There’s no better sight than to see snotty High Elves and Dwarves fleeing in terror from your mighty Orc rage! I love PvP in WAR, but I had to list it at number five since PvP in the later tiers (mainly tier 4) isn’t as fun as in the earlier tiers. Plus, crowd control becomes a huge issue as you progress through the tiers.

4.Planetside
Take a great First Person Shooter, mix it with an MMOG, and what do you get? Planetside!Planetsideis one of those games you just can't help but keep coming back to every few months; it never gets old. Running around, hopping in tanks and planes, and blowing the crap out of each other, is just great fun. No“go out and collect10 toe nail” quests here. Just killing, and proving your skill over your opponents. It is simply a fun game that matches you up against hundreds of other players to see who gets bragging rights. Why quest when you can be killing?

3.Darkfall
This one is for you old school Ultima Online fans. If you love the rush of stabbing someone in the back as they fight mobs, or love the thrill of always having to watch for that guy trying to stab you in the back while you fight mobs, then Darkfallis a game you must check out. Unlike PvP in many other games, in Darkfall, you can attack another player almost anywhere. It is one of the most open PvP systems out there, and you better have thick skin, and some mad skills to hang with the players here. With that said, it can be quite rewarding to drop that bastard who attacked you from behind believing you were an easy kill. If you want a hardcore PvP game, Darkfallis hard to beat. If you can’t handle the constant tension, I suggest you play the Care Bear Snuggly Happy Forest MMOG coming out soon. The only thing to fear there is hugs.

2. Eve Online
This one isn't for amateurs. Eve Onlineis one seriously bad ass PvP game. With an open sand box style, players must rely on their corporations (guilds) for survival. Where the player-driven economy is such a driving force that corporations fight tooth and nail for control over resources, you better always be looking over your shoulder. Eve does this so well it is one of the very few MMOGs that continue to gain new subscribers as time goes on. I put Eve Onlineat number two due to the fact that the sand box style open PvP nature of the game really rocks. Player driven corporations really drive the action in this game, with the constant fighting over resources. Plus, you can’t beat spaceship combat!

1.Dark Age of Camelot
Perhaps the finest example of PvP in an MMOG to date. Dark Age of Camelotgives you what most other games with PvP don't--a reason to do it. With their keep sieges, and relic captures that provide bonuses to the side that captures them, DAOC gives you a tangible reward for PvP. Between this, their 3 faction system that helps make sure one side does not dominate a server, and their siege weapons that are deployable anywhere in the PvP zones, Dark Age still reigns supreme in PvP. This is PvP done right! I am frankly stunned that no other company has used DAOC’s template for 3 faction PvP to keep players engaged on their server and to cut down on server migration of characters.

Conclusion
Well, there you have it folks. The top ten PvP MMOGs on the market today. When you get tired of doing that same raid for the 50th time, and you want to try something really challenging, grab one of these games and give it a go. I’ll be waiting to gank you...I mean help you when you get there.

  DeserttFoxx

Elite Member

Joined: 5/11/04
Posts: 2310

Cry Havok; and let loose the dogs of war.

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10/14/12 12:48:28 AM#42
Originally posted by ShakyMo
1 its using a heavily modified version of the skyrim engine.

Tes core audience is CONSOLE GAMERS

You think the elder scrolls is a console game? Let me guess, you havent actually played any elder scrolls game beyond skyrim right?

 

 

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  Entinerint

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/06/12
Posts: 713

10/14/12 12:49:44 AM#43
Originally posted by Zylaxx
 
  1. Aion(1 votes [2.04%] - View)
  2. Percentage of vote: 2.04%

  3. Asheron's Call (Darktide)(6 votes [12.24%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 12.24%

  4. Dark Age of Camelot(6 votes [12.24%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 12.24%

  5. Darkfall(3 votes [6.12%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 6.12%

  6. EVE Online(4 votes [8.16%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 8.16%

  7. Everquest 1 (Zek) (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  8. Everquest 2(1 votes [2.04%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.04%

  9. Guild Wars(1 votes [2.04%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.04%

  10. Lineage II (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  11. Rift(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.08%

  12. Runes of Magic(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.08%

  13. Shadowbane(5 votes [10.20%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 10.20%

  14. Star Wars Galaxies(1 votes [2.04%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.04%

  15. TERA Online(3 votes [6.12%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 6.12%

  16. Ultima Online(8 votes [16.33%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 16.33%

  17. Vanguard(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.08%

  18. Warhammer Online (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  19. World of Tanks(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.08%

  20. World of Warcraft(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

There's one.  A sampling of all 49 people, hardly a worthy sample. 

However, let's imagine the same ratio would exist at 20 million people.

Even in that case, the majority go for Ultima Online, an FFA PvP game.

2nd is tied between Asheron's Call Darktide yet another FFA PvP ruleset and DAOC, our beloved RvR.

The only other RvR game in there is Warhammer Online, zero votes, but there are two other FFA games on there, Darkfall and Shadowbane with three votes and five votes, respectively. 

Therefore, according to the poll you linked, that's 6 votes for RvR, 22 votes for FFA.  FFA wins by almost 4 times the number.

I appreciate the honesty, but this hardly supports your theory as it makes RvR the smallest minority of the preferred PvP type.

Where is this from, and when?  Please link the source, and link the exact question that was asked of this poll.

Also, the tentonhammer link I will dismiss, considering that it is one person's opinion, not a poll or sampling of any kind.  That person will probably be very excited for TESO just as you are.

  User Deleted
10/14/12 12:50:17 AM#44
Originally posted by DeserttFoxx
Originally posted by ShakyMo
1 its using a heavily modified version of the skyrim engine.

Tes core audience is CONSOLE GAMERS

You think the elder scrolls is a console game? Let me guess, you havent actually played any elder scrolls game beyond skyrim right?

 

 

75% Of skyrims sales is from console so yes the console is the core audience.

  User Deleted
10/14/12 12:51:56 AM#45
Originally posted by Entinerint
Originally posted by Zylaxx
 
  1. Aion(1 votes [2.04%] - View)
  2. Percentage of vote: 2.04%

  3. Asheron's Call (Darktide)(6 votes [12.24%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 12.24%

  4. Dark Age of Camelot(6 votes [12.24%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 12.24%

  5. Darkfall(3 votes [6.12%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 6.12%

  6. EVE Online(4 votes [8.16%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 8.16%

  7. Everquest 1 (Zek) (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  8. Everquest 2(1 votes [2.04%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.04%

  9. Guild Wars(1 votes [2.04%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.04%

  10. Lineage II (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  11. Rift(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.08%

  12. Runes of Magic(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.08%

  13. Shadowbane(5 votes [10.20%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 10.20%

  14. Star Wars Galaxies(1 votes [2.04%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.04%

  15. TERA Online(3 votes [6.12%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 6.12%

  16. Ultima Online(8 votes [16.33%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 16.33%

  17. Vanguard(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.08%

  18. Warhammer Online (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  19. World of Tanks(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.08%

  20. World of Warcraft(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

There's one.  A sampling of all 49 people, hardly a worthy sample. 

However, let's imagine the same ratio would exist at 20 million people.

Even in that case, the majority go for Ultima Online, an FFA PvP game.

2nd is tied between Asheron's Call Darktide yet another FFA PvP ruleset and DAOC, our beloved RvR.

The only other RvR game in there is Warhammer Online, zero votes, but there are two other FFA games on there, Darkfall and Shadowbane with three votes and five votes, respectively. 

Therefore, according to the poll you linked, that's 6 votes for RvR, 22 votes for FFA.  FFA wins by almost 4 times the number.

I appreciate the honesty, but this hardly supports your theory as it makes RvR the smallest minority of the preferred PvP type.

Where is this from?  Please link the source, and link the exact question that was asked of this poll.

A random forum.  It was the only statistical poll I found o nthe front page of google.  However you still refuse to acknowlege the top ten hammer post I made also.

  Entinerint

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/06/12
Posts: 713

10/14/12 12:54:29 AM#46
Originally posted by Zylaxx
Originally posted by Entinerint
Originally posted by Zylaxx
 
  1. Aion(1 votes [2.04%] - View)
  2. Percentage of vote: 2.04%

  3. Asheron's Call (Darktide)(6 votes [12.24%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 12.24%

  4. Dark Age of Camelot(6 votes [12.24%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 12.24%

  5. Darkfall(3 votes [6.12%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 6.12%

  6. EVE Online(4 votes [8.16%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 8.16%

  7. Everquest 1 (Zek) (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  8. Everquest 2(1 votes [2.04%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.04%

  9. Guild Wars(1 votes [2.04%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.04%

  10. Lineage II (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  11. Rift(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.08%

  12. Runes of Magic(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.08%

  13. Shadowbane(5 votes [10.20%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 10.20%

  14. Star Wars Galaxies(1 votes [2.04%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.04%

  15. TERA Online(3 votes [6.12%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 6.12%

  16. Ultima Online(8 votes [16.33%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 16.33%

  17. Vanguard(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.08%

  18. Warhammer Online (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  19. World of Tanks(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.08%

  20. World of Warcraft(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

There's one.  A sampling of all 49 people, hardly a worthy sample. 

However, let's imagine the same ratio would exist at 20 million people.

Even in that case, the majority go for Ultima Online, an FFA PvP game.

2nd is tied between Asheron's Call Darktide yet another FFA PvP ruleset and DAOC, our beloved RvR.

The only other RvR game in there is Warhammer Online, zero votes, but there are two other FFA games on there, Darkfall and Shadowbane with three votes and five votes, respectively. 

Therefore, according to the poll you linked, that's 6 votes for RvR, 22 votes for FFA.  FFA wins by almost 4 times the number.

I appreciate the honesty, but this hardly supports your theory as it makes RvR the smallest minority of the preferred PvP type.

Where is this from?  Please link the source, and link the exact question that was asked of this poll.

A random forum.  It was the only statistical poll I found o nthe front page of google.  However you still refuse to acknowlege the top ten hammer post I made also.

I edited, but I'll repeat.

The TenTonHammer piece is one man's opinion, not a poll or sampling, therefore it is dismissed.

This one puts DAOC at number 5: http://mmohuts.com/editorials/best-p2p-pvp-mmorpgs

This guy puts it at #3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0y38In2v0U

These personal bests are irrelevant.

  User Deleted
10/14/12 2:14:11 AM#47
Originally posted by Entinerint
Originally posted by Zylaxx
Originally posted by Entinerint
Originally posted by Zylaxx
 
  1. Aion(1 votes [2.04%] - View)
  2. Percentage of vote: 2.04%

  3. Asheron's Call (Darktide)(6 votes [12.24%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 12.24%

  4. Dark Age of Camelot(6 votes [12.24%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 12.24%

  5. Darkfall(3 votes [6.12%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 6.12%

  6. EVE Online(4 votes [8.16%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 8.16%

  7. Everquest 1 (Zek) (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  8. Everquest 2(1 votes [2.04%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.04%

  9. Guild Wars(1 votes [2.04%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.04%

  10. Lineage II (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  11. Rift(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.08%

  12. Runes of Magic(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.08%

  13. Shadowbane(5 votes [10.20%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 10.20%

  14. Star Wars Galaxies(1 votes [2.04%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.04%

  15. TERA Online(3 votes [6.12%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 6.12%

  16. Ultima Online(8 votes [16.33%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 16.33%

  17. Vanguard(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.08%

  18. Warhammer Online (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  19. World of Tanks(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.08%

  20. World of Warcraft(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

There's one.  A sampling of all 49 people, hardly a worthy sample. 

However, let's imagine the same ratio would exist at 20 million people.

Even in that case, the majority go for Ultima Online, an FFA PvP game.

2nd is tied between Asheron's Call Darktide yet another FFA PvP ruleset and DAOC, our beloved RvR.

The only other RvR game in there is Warhammer Online, zero votes, but there are two other FFA games on there, Darkfall and Shadowbane with three votes and five votes, respectively. 

Therefore, according to the poll you linked, that's 6 votes for RvR, 22 votes for FFA.  FFA wins by almost 4 times the number.

I appreciate the honesty, but this hardly supports your theory as it makes RvR the smallest minority of the preferred PvP type.

Where is this from?  Please link the source, and link the exact question that was asked of this poll.

A random forum.  It was the only statistical poll I found o nthe front page of google.  However you still refuse to acknowlege the top ten hammer post I made also.

I edited, but I'll repeat.

The TenTonHammer piece is one man's opinion, not a poll or sampling, therefore it is dismissed.

This one puts DAOC at number 5: http://mmohuts.com/editorials/best-p2p-pvp-mmorpgs

This guy puts it at #3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0y38In2v0U

These personal bests are irrelevant.

I'm done with this, I proved conclusively that DAoC was a superb and well recieved game, anyone who played knows so.  The biggest fans of the TES MMO are also ex-DAoC vets.  Nothing more for me to prove but to wait on its release.  Will I think it be a huge success?  Prolly not but it will sell well and do good based on its own merits and not because its a Skyrim (or any other TES) clone.  I and many thousands of fans are looking forward to it so at the end of the day that is all that counts. 

  Entinerint

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/06/12
Posts: 713

10/14/12 2:21:03 AM#48
Originally posted by Zylaxx
Originally posted by Entinerint
Originally posted by Zylaxx
Originally posted by Entinerint
Originally posted by Zylaxx
 
  1. Aion(1 votes [2.04%] - View)
  2. Percentage of vote: 2.04%

  3. Asheron's Call (Darktide)(6 votes [12.24%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 12.24%

  4. Dark Age of Camelot(6 votes [12.24%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 12.24%

  5. Darkfall(3 votes [6.12%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 6.12%

  6. EVE Online(4 votes [8.16%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 8.16%

  7. Everquest 1 (Zek) (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  8. Everquest 2(1 votes [2.04%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.04%

  9. Guild Wars(1 votes [2.04%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.04%

  10. Lineage II (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  11. Rift(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.08%

  12. Runes of Magic(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.08%

  13. Shadowbane(5 votes [10.20%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 10.20%

  14. Star Wars Galaxies(1 votes [2.04%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.04%

  15. TERA Online(3 votes [6.12%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 6.12%

  16. Ultima Online(8 votes [16.33%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 16.33%

  17. Vanguard(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.08%

  18. Warhammer Online (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  19. World of Tanks(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.08%

  20. World of Warcraft(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

There's one.  A sampling of all 49 people, hardly a worthy sample. 

However, let's imagine the same ratio would exist at 20 million people.

Even in that case, the majority go for Ultima Online, an FFA PvP game.

2nd is tied between Asheron's Call Darktide yet another FFA PvP ruleset and DAOC, our beloved RvR.

The only other RvR game in there is Warhammer Online, zero votes, but there are two other FFA games on there, Darkfall and Shadowbane with three votes and five votes, respectively. 

Therefore, according to the poll you linked, that's 6 votes for RvR, 22 votes for FFA.  FFA wins by almost 4 times the number.

I appreciate the honesty, but this hardly supports your theory as it makes RvR the smallest minority of the preferred PvP type.

Where is this from?  Please link the source, and link the exact question that was asked of this poll.

A random forum.  It was the only statistical poll I found o nthe front page of google.  However you still refuse to acknowlege the top ten hammer post I made also.

I edited, but I'll repeat.

The TenTonHammer piece is one man's opinion, not a poll or sampling, therefore it is dismissed.

This one puts DAOC at number 5: http://mmohuts.com/editorials/best-p2p-pvp-mmorpgs

This guy puts it at #3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0y38In2v0U

These personal bests are irrelevant.

I'm done with this, I proved conclusively that DAoC was a superb and well recieved game, anyone who played knows so.  The biggest fans of the TES MMO are also ex-DAoC vets.  Nothing more for me to prove but to wait on its release.  Will I think it be a huge success?  Prolly not but it will sell well and do good based on its own merits and not because its a Skyrim (or any other TES) clone.  I and many thousands of fans are looking forward to it so at the end of the day that is all that counts. 

Go ahead and concede defeat, that's fine, as you have proven exactly nothing.

DAOC was a good game, no one is refuting that, what we are refuting is that its fanbase is a worthy focal fanbase from a marketing standpoint and I have conclusively proven that is is not.

The only hope for success that TESO has is on the back of the TES brand.  Sadly, as the OP pointed out, they squandered that with their initial barrage of marketing and misinformation.

 

PS: I saw your "best MMOs" thread, even posted my own top ten.  Sadly DAOC only got 3, maybe 4 mentions out of 3 pages of top tens.  Good try though.

  Radar11x

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/09/07
Posts: 116

Pull the green cord...

10/14/12 2:35:55 AM#49
Originally posted by ShakyMo
1 its using a heavily modified version of the skyrim engine.

Tes core audience is CONSOLE GAMERS

lol its using the hero engine like SWTOR.

  User Deleted
10/14/12 2:41:47 AM#50
Originally posted by Radar11x
Originally posted by ShakyMo
1 its using a heavily modified version of the skyrim engine.

Tes core audience is CONSOLE GAMERS

lol its using the hero engine like SWTOR.

Its not........and you would know that if you read the OP. In fact your post is proof that he is correct about the hero engine debacle hurting ESO

  ste2000

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/28/04
Posts: 4715

10/14/12 2:51:18 AM#51
Originally posted by jiveturkey12

In Conclusion - A Mature Audience detracted by an Adolescent game

Pretty much this

Zenimax is absolutly clueless regarding TESO

They are killing  one of the best gaming IP for the sake of few extra box sales, ignoring the long term appeal of the game and therefore the lack of subscription after the first month.

Zenimax keep saying that some things cannot be done, but that's absolutely bullshit, this kind of mentality is always a recipe for mediocre games.

  User Deleted
10/14/12 2:54:55 AM#52
Originally posted by Entinerint
Originally posted by Zylaxx
Originally posted by Entinerint
Originally posted by Zylaxx
Originally posted by Entinerint
Originally posted by Zylaxx
 
  1. Aion(1 votes [2.04%] - View)
  2. Percentage of vote: 2.04%

  3. Asheron's Call (Darktide)(6 votes [12.24%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 12.24%

  4. Dark Age of Camelot(6 votes [12.24%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 12.24%

  5. Darkfall(3 votes [6.12%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 6.12%

  6. EVE Online(4 votes [8.16%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 8.16%

  7. Everquest 1 (Zek) (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  8. Everquest 2(1 votes [2.04%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.04%

  9. Guild Wars(1 votes [2.04%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.04%

  10. Lineage II (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  11. Rift(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.08%

  12. Runes of Magic(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.08%

  13. Shadowbane(5 votes [10.20%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 10.20%

  14. Star Wars Galaxies(1 votes [2.04%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.04%

  15. TERA Online(3 votes [6.12%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 6.12%

  16. Ultima Online(8 votes [16.33%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 16.33%

  17. Vanguard(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.08%

  18. Warhammer Online (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  19. World of Tanks(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.08%

  20. World of Warcraft(2 votes [4.08%] - View)

There's one.  A sampling of all 49 people, hardly a worthy sample. 

However, let's imagine the same ratio would exist at 20 million people.

Even in that case, the majority go for Ultima Online, an FFA PvP game.

2nd is tied between Asheron's Call Darktide yet another FFA PvP ruleset and DAOC, our beloved RvR.

The only other RvR game in there is Warhammer Online, zero votes, but there are two other FFA games on there, Darkfall and Shadowbane with three votes and five votes, respectively. 

Therefore, according to the poll you linked, that's 6 votes for RvR, 22 votes for FFA.  FFA wins by almost 4 times the number.

I appreciate the honesty, but this hardly supports your theory as it makes RvR the smallest minority of the preferred PvP type.

Where is this from?  Please link the source, and link the exact question that was asked of this poll.

A random forum.  It was the only statistical poll I found o nthe front page of google.  However you still refuse to acknowlege the top ten hammer post I made also.

I edited, but I'll repeat.

The TenTonHammer piece is one man's opinion, not a poll or sampling, therefore it is dismissed.

This one puts DAOC at number 5: http://mmohuts.com/editorials/best-p2p-pvp-mmorpgs

This guy puts it at #3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0y38In2v0U

These personal bests are irrelevant.

I'm done with this, I proved conclusively that DAoC was a superb and well recieved game, anyone who played knows so.  The biggest fans of the TES MMO are also ex-DAoC vets.  Nothing more for me to prove but to wait on its release.  Will I think it be a huge success?  Prolly not but it will sell well and do good based on its own merits and not because its a Skyrim (or any other TES) clone.  I and many thousands of fans are looking forward to it so at the end of the day that is all that counts. 

Go ahead and concede defeat, that's fine, as you have proven exactly nothing.

DAOC was a good game, no one is refuting that, what we are refuting is that its fanbase is a worthy focal fanbase from a marketing standpoint and I have conclusively proven that is is not.

The only hope for success that TESO has is on the back of the TES brand.  Sadly, as the OP pointed out, they squandered that with their initial barrage of marketing and misinformation.

 

PS: I saw your "best MMOs" thread, even posted my own top ten.  Sadly DAOC only got 3, maybe 4 mentions out of 3 pages of top tens.  Good try though.

Again I refuting why is not a worth focal point.  We already know WoW clones have and will continue to fail (see Rift and SWTOR).  We already know FFA PvP games will fail.  (well not really fail but are niche at best) and we already know that games that try to innovate and do something different have good success.  See WoW and GW2.  All I am saying is that:

  • The game is being directed by a former DAoC creator
  • It is shying away from the EQ/WoW model of raid centric PvE
  • Is attempting to capitiliyze of a game form that is considered to be very good.  I am not refuting that DAoC was a mega success, what I am refuting is that it is bad design to market a game to those since its been done only 2 times after DAoC with WAR which flooped partly because the game play was bad and the RvR portion was to small and was 2 faction.  And then you got GW2 which had a similar design standpoint with WvW *which is still goign very strong).
  • Using an existing IP to try and capture some of that playerbase
  • is trying to stay true to that IP within an MMO model, mainly the open world exploration centric model, which is and always will TES's greatest strength.  The next TES single player game to come out could be with an entirely different combat, 3rd person and class based and as logn as it retains the open world sand box elements it will do well.
And yes theres nothing wrong with using an existing IP to try and bring more players into the fold.  They could easily used a different or original IP and been successful but I think Bethesda isnt oblivious to the fact that MMO's are a great business opportunity and by using a different studio to design and develop they hope to alleviate any fallout if the game fails.  All I am saying from a marketing and business decision it is a no brainer to try and make a TES MMO.  Will it fail or succeed? no one knows, but trying it from a different angle, one from a developmental picture that has only been done a couple of times seems liek the right move.  All in all, I thank god they arent making a WoW clone cause then it is sure to misfire and fail, no matter how good it is (see Rift for proof). And theres no way a AAA studio would ever make a FFA or open world PvP game because there is plenty of evidence for it not working all that much.  So it comes down to 2 things, do they try something completely new? Copy TES single player RPG over to an online version or try something that has been considred fun, original and new but only done a handful of times.
 
With the plans in place, they are taking a shot, one in which I see as a very curious case but not altogether a bad decision.  Again look at the http://tamrielfoundry.com/development-faq/ some of those elements are original and in no way shape or form can be considred anything other then innovative.
  Deivos

Novice Member

Joined: 10/14/04
Posts: 1701

Iarð skal rifna, ok upphiminn.

10/14/12 2:57:36 AM#53

Need to clarify that I'm pretty certain console and mod gamers are not the target aurience of Zenimax.

 

First clue being the game does not have design elements that actually cater to either of those market's desires or play habits.

 

Best you get out of either of them is a brief jaunt and the initial box price, then a rapid falloff as they all refuse to pay the sub and leave the game for good.

 

As for the DAoC thing. Entin has a point. Yes, even I consider DAoC one of the best MMo games presiously made. However, first problem I see with it is that Mythic very honestly don't know how they made that game a hit.

 

It is very much the case that as time goes on, not every DAoC fan or vet is going to migrate to this game. More so Entin's point was that the fanbase didn't swell over the years, it does not inflate in numbers with the size of the rest of the mmo community. Either you played the game or you did not. 250,000 people played the game? Then that's how many you have as a maximum possible outcome assuming every single one migrated to TESO.

I would love for better faction warfare to make a comeback in MMOs, but I'm not going to play a game I don't like to find it.

 

Besides, I know DAoC fans that are loving the hell out of WvWvW in GW2 right now, so perhaps a subsection of that community already found a new home.

As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero. - Vaarsuvius

  User Deleted
10/14/12 3:11:18 AM#54
Originally posted by ste2000
Originally posted by jiveturkey12

In Conclusion - A Mature Audience detracted by an Adolescent game

Pretty much this

Zenimax is absolutly clueless regarding TESO

They are killing  one of the best gaming IP for the sake of few extra box sales, ignoring the long term appeal of the game and therefore the lack of subscription after the first month.

Zenimax keep saying that some things cannot be done, but that's absolutely bullshit, this kind of mentality is always a recipe for mediocre games.

You see this argument all the time, but this is due to them releasing the first information or sneak peak that has ZERO publication experience in the world of MMO's.  I too was highly skeptical and vocally upset with the decsion but since June of this years release, Zenimax has gone through great pains to correct certain factual errors in that initial publication.  I suspect the reason it was done on game informer was the same reason why Anet made thier manefesto claiming GW2 would be for those who hated MMO's.  Did it backfire on them?  Hell yea, they are still painstakingly trying to correct the errors in that piece.

 

The only issue they stated would not be ported over is the combat because in their own words: The Elder Scrolls Online cannot use the same real-time combat model that has been a feature of recent TES games. There are important technical reasons why this is not feasible, ranging from network latency to client security and cheating prevention.  Nothing worng with that at all from my standpoint, as combat has always been the weakest link in the TES universe.  Instead of having tab targetting generic MMO combat however they are going the route of quasi action combat with a stamina bar.  Again, from the foundry website: Elder Scrolls Online is designed to provide an experience that feels familiar to fans of the single player games, while providing deep and challenging MMO mechanics for veterans of the genre. Key “touchstones” of the Elder Scrolls IP will all be present in the MMO. Daedric princes, eight divines (no Talos in TESO!), constellations, and spell schools will all be familiar elements.In order to preserve as much of the real-time “feel” as possible, the game’s combat focuses around the opportunistic use of a stamina bar which allows the player to sprint, block, interrupt, and escape crowd control. By selectively using these strategic abilities, combat in TES:O feels dynamic, despite adhering to turn-based fundamentals which are critical to MMO design. All classes have access to block, sprint, and crouch. So every class gets TES style stealth (which in their words is crouch.  Every class gets access to a stamina bar to use sprint, block and CC breaks to give the illusion of being dynamic and TES like within the framework of a turnbased MMO combat system.  Instead of having open classes, TESO uses a weapon system which allows the use of any class to use any weapon and get better with it. i.e. a mage with a bow or a thief with a 2h axe.  Again its an illusion to TES classless based gameplay within the confines of tradtional MMO class systems.  In other wordsL TESO might not be a direct port of the single player RPG but it does have enough allusion to seem familiar to both fans of the RPG's as well the MMO's.

 

The housing issue was summed up in an AMA by stating they want to do housing right and they are still working out the details on how to have open world housing within an MMO setting with limited landmass.  You see they dont want to jsut tack on housing like say EQ2 did.  (although I would prefer it over no housing) but with the limited time to develop they feel hosuing is only a small portion of what makes TES a great game.

  Deivos

Novice Member

Joined: 10/14/04
Posts: 1701

Iarð skal rifna, ok upphiminn.

10/14/12 3:11:47 AM#55

Also I kind of take contention with that last bullet point.

 

Open world exploration is one of the aspects that people love. That is not the only one and it does not stand leagues above anything else. Yes, a lot ot people gripe about the combat system, but compare it to other systems and it stands as one of the few of it's kind in the first place.

More so that that, even with as many people gripe about it, for some reason its still been used previously as the major selling point to other titles. Most notably Mortal Online and Darkfall when first being introduced were referred to often as having an 'Oblivion like' gameplay.

It was rather literally a marketing point for those games to emulate the combat that people want to downplay here. And it's ironically also one of the few strong points of either of those titles.

 

Add to that my previous comments elsewhere about longterm community, or loyalists to the title series, generally being the modder base which really receive nothing from this game. Not going to pay a sub for a game where they don't do the things they actually want to do.

 

EDIT: Need to also say their comment on the gameplay not being technically feasible I generally find to be false, and have detailed why previously at length.

 

Commented on housing previously too with an offered solution.

As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero. - Vaarsuvius

  User Deleted
10/14/12 3:25:32 AM#56
Originally posted by Deivos

Need to clarify that I'm pretty certain console and mod gamers are not the target aurience of Zenimax.

 

First clue being the game does not have design elements that actually cater to either of those market's desires or play habits.

 

Best you get out of either of them is a brief jaunt and the initial box price, then a rapid falloff as they all refuse to pay the sub and leave the game for good.

 

As for the DAoC thing. Entin has a point. Yes, even I consider DAoC one of the best MMo games presiously made. However, first problem I see with it is that Mythic very honestly don't know how they made that game a hit.

 

It is very much the case that as time goes on, not every DAoC fan or vet is going to migrate to this game. More so Entin's point was that the fanbase didn't swell over the years, it does not inflate in numbers with the size of the rest of the mmo community. Either you played the game or you did not. 250,000 people played the game? Then that's how many you have as a maximum possible outcome assuming every single one migrated to TESO.

I would love for better faction warfare to make a comeback in MMOs, but I'm not going to play a game I don't like to find it.

 

Besides, I know DAoC fans that are loving the hell out of WvWvW in GW2 right now, so perhaps a subsection of that community already found a new home.

Agreed, with most of your points except the one about limited playerbase of DAoC.  As stated before you ahve to put that into context of the time is was implemented and released.  At that time 250K population was considered a mega success, EQ had about the same population.  The issue I have is that extrapolating those numbers out to todays playerbase of MMO's isnt unreasonable.  You cant possibly be suggsting Zenimax is developing an MMO to a population base of only 250K, no they are doing the same thing I am saying here.  Given a market share of a player base that is 100 times that of 2002 it isnt unreasonable to say the subsciption base wouldnt go from 25% (DAoC roughlly share of all MMO subscriptions in 2002) to a sum close to that number (say 10% of todays market share) which is roughly 1 million or so subscribers.  Any notion to the contrary is belittling scientific statistical fact.  Agai nthis doesnt neccessarily mean they wil lget that number, but I assure you they are planning on a sub base much larger then 250k players.  No AAA studio develops for such a small share of the population of MMO's, those numbers are in the range of niche audiences.

 

I agree not every evry DAoC fan will play it, but I hazard to guess that a great many of them will.  Again as for GW2, I agree, but again TESO was in development (2007) before GW2's known features were released (2010), it looks as if Zenimax and Anet came to the same conclusion.  It might very prove that Anet beat Zenimax to the punch but time will tell, I think TESO wont release till late next year and at that time GW2 will be a year old and they are probably hoping GW2 population would of subsided and its players may be looking for a new game.  Time will tell however.

 

My point is, I am keenly aware of how jaded and unfullfilled fans of TES are but nonetheless I am avidly looking forward to more information of TESO.  As a fan of MMO, and the Hobby of choice for me how could I not be. At least TESO is not a WoW clone and for that I am entirely thankful.

  User Deleted
10/14/12 3:37:00 AM#57
Originally posted by Deivos

Also I kind of take contention with that last bullet point.

 

Open world exploration is one of the aspects that people love. That is not the only one and it does not stand leagues above anything else. Yes, a lot ot people gripe about the combat system, but compare it to other systems and it stands as one of the few of it's kind in the first place.

More so that that, even with as many people gripe about it, for some reason its still been used previously as the major selling point to other titles. Most notably Mortal Online and Darkfall when first being introduced were referred to often as having an 'Oblivion like' gameplay.

It was rather literally a marketing point for those games to emulate the combat that people want to downplay here. And it's ironically also one of the few strong points of either of those titles.

 

Add to that my previous comments elsewhere about longterm community, or loyalists to the title series, generally being the modder base which really receive nothing from this game. Not going to pay a sub for a game where they don't do the things they actually want to do.

 

EDIT: Need to also say their comment on the gameplay not being technically feasible I generally find to be false, and have detailed why previously at length.

 

Commented on housing previously too with an offered solution.

What technical feasible issues are you speaking of, other then the Combat and housing issues?  Those are the only 2 elements that they have said were not feasible (combat) or not worth delaying a release due to wanting to do it right (housing).

 

As for the intial statement of open world PvE, it is and again there are literally thousands of forums posts, blogs, and professional reviews that state the same.  Do you think TES would be as popular if it was more of a JRPG (i.e. linear) Of course it wouldnt be.  Do you think it would be as poular if it was an isometric view, or if the combat was hotbar based (I tend to believe so).  Well for me I thin kthe only thing that makes TES so popular is its open world freedom, any other elements are just icing on the cake.  Todd Howards at E3 2011 and on G4TV Skyrim special even states TES most important and unversally recognizable game element.  I think I would trust the creator of the game over any one else.  Todd even tried to give Skyrim more features that have been asked for in SKyrim.  Things such as 3rd person view and bigger worlds to explore.

 

I dont know of one person who ahs ever stated TES combat is the main factor in determining why they play.

  Deivos

Novice Member

Joined: 10/14/04
Posts: 1701

Iarð skal rifna, ok upphiminn.

10/14/12 4:25:10 AM#58

As I said I have detailed my issues in previous posts elsewhere, they are generally too long for me to want to type our or repost time and again.

 

I know what's been said of open world. And I do agree it's a major selling point. But like I mentioned, even in the face of people lambsting the last three title's combat, for some reason they still see it a a valuable point when advertising other games.

 

Generally I only speak from personal experience. I know off the bad that Skyrim has fared better then Morrowind and Oblivion in how many people have played and enjoyed the game. 

All three had open world. What made Skyrim's open world that much better wasn't simply the fact you could free roam, it was the surrounding systems that made it not boring. Radiant AI and the dynamic events that they throw at you in Skyrim helped many players feel as if they were wandering around in an active game world, which was something that was missing in the previous titles, rather because the AI was not there.

 

On top of that it's never been that the combat is bad in concept, Bethesda just isn't great at implementation. I would again refer to modding community and the likes of the Deadly Reflex mod for Oblivion. Same fundamental aspect of first and third person combat, but with a much more complex and rewarding system. It's not that people hate that kind of combat, it's the quality of what is implemented.

 
If you really can't find one person that's willing to claim the combat is part of the appeal of the game, then I have to assume it for one or a combination of a few reasons. Either you are taking the comments that people say the mechanics are poorly done to mean they do not value those kind of mechanics overall. You are not looking for such opinions. Or you have a mental block against such opinions.
 
You seem a balanced sort, so intentionally flawed data doesn't seem to be your thing. I'll at least go out and admit that the combat in the Elder Scrolls series, while definitely flawed, I would have no other way. I enjoy that form of combat. It's why I advocate Mount & Blade as a game so much as well. It's a form of gameplay that is perfectly capable of quality and depth if effort was actually given to planning it out, and Mount & Blade showcases that well where Bethesda tends to fall short.
 
Not a problem of the gameplay concept, just poor implementation. People have a habit of getting hung up on the implementation and turning off as a whole on a matter, or addressing it in a general and obscure way that convolutes that.
 
 
As for the statistics thing. I agree with you, but I also don't.
Yes, the market has increased. With that it's quite likely that the people who would find interest in realm faction like DAoC has increased.
The amount of vets from DAoC has not increased. They are what they will be.
 
It'd generally be a better thing to forgo trying to bill a single game's vets as the target audience because it intriduces an aspect that's too open to such semantics. It detracts from the point, which I agree with you on, that there has been a gorwing crossection of gamers that would value such faction combat.
 
You have also minorly noted, as well as I have, that this does not exist in isolation either though. On the more actiony side you have Planetside 2 that's been in development and is an upcoming release further along than TESO seems to be (seeing as it's in a public playable state and they haven't released TESO as such).
You also have Guild Wars 2. You can nitpick all the semantic details, but there is a large degree of overarching similarity between the outlined concept behind TESO and GW2 as it currently stands.
 
Both of these titles offer the same concept of three faction ongoing warfare, and that's going to divvy up the player base.
 
Can also make the argument that people who have found their niche tend to stay in their niche as well. Even with games that are perceived as bad, such as APB, they still manage to retain a longterm playerbase of loyalists and similar titles don't tend to move them. Take the all time juggernaut WoW for example. Every time someone rants about a new title trying to steal subs from the game or it being killed by players leaving it for a new title.
It doesn't generally work that way in MMOs. You still have loyalists playing UO and Everquest. You still have a lot of people playing WoW. All for the quotable reason that 'I don't want to lose all the progress I have made in this game.'
 
The market Zenimax is likely aiming for seems to mostly be a general one. I can definitely pick out certain things like they definitely want people into faction PvP and the people that just like to wander about. But there's a lot I see them as cutting out too.
 
EDIT: You're actually posting in one of the threads I put a long diatribe recently in.

As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero. - Vaarsuvius

  User Deleted
10/14/12 6:37:15 AM#59
Originally posted by Deivos

As I said I have detailed my issues in previous posts elsewhere, they are generally too long for me to want to type our or repost time and again.

 

I know what's been said of open world. And I do agree it's a major selling point. But like I mentioned, even in the face of people lambsting the last three title's combat, for some reason they still see it a a valuable point when advertising other games.

 

Generally I only speak from personal experience. I know off the bad that Skyrim has fared better then Morrowind and Oblivion in how many people have played and enjoyed the game. 

All three had open world. What made Skyrim's open world that much better wasn't simply the fact you could free roam, it was the surrounding systems that made it not boring. Radiant AI and the dynamic events that they throw at you in Skyrim helped many players feel as if they were wandering around in an active game world, which was something that was missing in the previous titles, rather because the AI was not there.

 

On top of that it's never been that the combat is bad in concept, Bethesda just isn't great at implementation. I would again refer to modding community and the likes of the Deadly Reflex mod for Oblivion. Same fundamental aspect of first and third person combat, but with a much more complex and rewarding system. It's not that people hate that kind of combat, it's the quality of what is implemented.

 
If you really can't find one person that's willing to claim the combat is part of the appeal of the game, then I have to assume it for one or a combination of a few reasons. Either you are taking the comments that people say the mechanics are poorly done to mean they do not value those kind of mechanics overall. You are not looking for such opinions. Or you have a mental block against such opinions.
 
You seem a balanced sort, so intentionally flawed data doesn't seem to be your thing. I'll at least go out and admit that the combat in the Elder Scrolls series, while definitely flawed, I would have no other way. I enjoy that form of combat. It's why I advocate Mount & Blade as a game so much as well. It's a form of gameplay that is perfectly capable of quality and depth if effort was actually given to planning it out, and Mount & Blade showcases that well where Bethesda tends to fall short.
 
Not a problem of the gameplay concept, just poor implementation. People have a habit of getting hung up on the implementation and turning off as a whole on a matter, or addressing it in a general and obscure way that convolutes that.
 
 
As for the statistics thing. I agree with you, but I also don't.
Yes, the market has increased. With that it's quite likely that the people who would find interest in realm faction like DAoC has increased.
The amount of vets from DAoC has not increased. They are what they will be.
 
It'd generally be a better thing to forgo trying to bill a single game's vets as the target audience because it intriduces an aspect that's too open to such semantics. It detracts from the point, which I agree with you on, that there has been a gorwing crossection of gamers that would value such faction combat.
 
You have also minorly noted, as well as I have, that this does not exist in isolation either though. On the more actiony side you have Planetside 2 that's been in development and is an upcoming release further along than TESO seems to be (seeing as it's in a public playable state and they haven't released TESO as such).
You also have Guild Wars 2. You can nitpick all the semantic details, but there is a large degree of overarching similarity between the outlined concept behind TESO and GW2 as it currently stands.
 
Both of these titles offer the same concept of three faction ongoing warfare, and that's going to divvy up the player base.
 
Can also make the argument that people who have found their niche tend to stay in their niche as well. Even with games that are perceived as bad, such as APB, they still manage to retain a longterm playerbase of loyalists and similar titles don't tend to move them. Take the all time juggernaut WoW for example. Every time someone rants about a new title trying to steal subs from the game or it being killed by players leaving it for a new title.
It doesn't generally work that way in MMOs. You still have loyalists playing UO and Everquest. You still have a lot of people playing WoW. All for the quotable reason that 'I don't want to lose all the progress I have made in this game.'
 
The market Zenimax is likely aiming for seems to mostly be a general one. I can definitely pick out certain things like they definitely want people into faction PvP and the people that just like to wander about. But there's a lot I see them as cutting out too.
 
EDIT: You're actually posting in one of the threads I put a long diatribe recently in.

Detailed and precise, with solid evidence against the game.  Its nice when people disagree with civility, something these boards lack alot of times.  While I appreciate your candor and post I disagree, merely out of speculative reasoning.  If you ever saw the Mini Series "John Adams" where John Adams and John Dickenson debate the passage of the declaration of Independence.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCBgYMRBe-M and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7Y1ougODMo I feel like this.  You see a grim outlook on the game, I see a bright future.   Niether of us can be certain till the game releases.

 

Sorry to add in that John Adams scenario, as an avid student of history I couldnt help but feel like that scenario is indcitive of how debate here.  Without the great implications that debate had, unlike ours about a video game. 

  rungard

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1037

The Sandbox Foundation does not exist!

10/14/12 2:47:11 PM#60

I think there in a tough spot as to who their audience is.

i think they should really look at the core features of tes that can work in a mmo. First person view is an easy one. I think their combat system might be ok even though its not true combat.

i think their biggest obstacle is how to incorperate open world with faction based pvp. You have to remember that while doac had the great faction based combat they also had the disability that 3 times the content had to be generated. GW2 gets around this with server clusters. Im not sure how todays rabid conent locusts will fare with 1/3 the content. Remembers that daoc's pve was pretty weak.

i would bite the bullet and use some sort of  sanctioned army strategy so you join the army when you pvp allowing you to wage wars in the pvp area, but when not in that area you arent in the army and can travel anywhere you like in the entire world but arent sanctioned to be killing other players.  In the pvp area you would be a nameles " insert faction here" so you could coexist in the pve area i would imagine.

its not perfect but i believe its better than not allowing access to 2/3 of the world in this kind of game.

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