Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by Pumuckl71

gosh ....the first  week after release GW2  was the holy grail, praised  by uncountable posts here.

Now  it almost seems the other way around , lol . End of  Sanity.

There were way more whining release week than now. Also, OP were talking about one aspect of the game, dungeons. Turning that into that the game is "the opposite of the holy grail" is really taking things out of content.

It is an excellent game, but it is not the holy grail of MMOs and never was. There is in fact no such thing as a holy grail historical or in MMOs).

cmon loke no need to nitpick words i know that there isnt such a thing as a holy grail mmo ..twas a metaphoric remark.

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by Radakill

Fail.

Not just partial fail, this is world class fook up fail on global level. I literally cant remember a single MMO in history that has screwed up a dungeon instance like ArenaNet.

So far, dungeons have been my worst experience when playing GW2.

Just to name a few..

1. No cross server group finder.

2. The absence of taunt tanking often means one or two shot kills by mobs thats are so far OP to the players, you spend the majority of time resurrecting, repairing and running back to the fight only to find yourself on an endless cycle of the same thing, just repeat.

3. No real thrill to adventuring here. I know Ive heard players complain about boredom in the open areas, so I was hoping to find a change of pace in the instances. Didnt happen. Even with a more balanced system of play, instance adventuring here would still seem repetitious and dull.

I cant even list all the negatives, I would be here all night and would run out of text space so, its easier to just name a few good things about dungeon play in GW2...

1. No monthly sub

....That’s pretty much it.

I also think that dungeons can use a little more work, mostly because some bosses are really hard while others are really easy and just stand still and wait to be killed. In other word I think that the AI of some bosses needs improvements.

1. Cross server dungeon finders are the worst thing I seen in any MMO. They totally screw up the server community feeling. I am all for dungeonfinders, but only for same server finders.

2. Dungeons are hard, or you will die a lot. Tanks makes any combat rather boring and predictable. Get better gear, train and try to work better with the group you are playing with.

3. Your feelings, dont agree with you but you have every right of thinking so of course.

But to me it sounds like you die a lot when you play them. They are made so they should be hard so either train so you will learn to play better or play the other parts of the games instead. MMOs needs some harder content, in most games it is raids but in GW2 it is explorable dungeons.

Tanks makes any combat rather boring and predictable.

Not necessarily. It very much depends on the encounter, as tanks can only handle so much. There are many ways to make the "holy trinity" extremely challenging, using mechanics, special boss skills, adds etc. Healing, DPS and support roles can and usually do play a big part in controlling the situation, if everyone isnt working as a team and knows their rolls well, then the encounter can fall apart very quickly. Its anything but boring and predictable.

These dungeons are just pure chaos. As stated earlier, there are many encounters that leave ANY group with little to no chance of surviving. Thats not a challenge, its a poorly designed chaotic drudgery that just frustrates players.

You dont have to die a lot for dungeons to be entertaining and fun, with a development team that knows how to design them, groups will still have a chance to live through encounters and have a great time in the process.

because i m not a skilled and cool player.

because i dont play it right.

because i dont see the next gen thing.

because i have played gw2 dungeons.

i love TRINITY!

gw2 dungeons really suck.

I love the game and enjoy much of it, but dungeons are just crap. Not because of no tanks, I play only with close friends, often LAN party. We're all competent and rarely have much in the way of cock ups, but frankly the dungeons are just shit. Bland, uninspired and generally boring. Makes pre Cata Wailing Caverns look good.

I honestl think even if all untelegraphed 1shots were redone, everything balanced for the level given etc, you'd still be looking at a complete revamp to not be boring. I think they had good intentions with the storytelling but in it's current incarnation it doesn't work. Hell, take out the story from story mode (I know, I know, but..) you'd only have a 10minute dungeon.

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Originally posted by Xasapis

• The fights are balanced with corpserezzing in mind, so they will be unfair in a sense, since you're allowed to run back after dying.

If that is true, which is very possibly is. Then that really is a poor way to "balance" something.

No they're not. With proper strategy and and gear/specs even the hardest bosses in explorables like Giganticus and Subject Alpha can be done without way point rezzing or at worse with minimal. I'd say consumable are also at least recommended in these fights,  toughness food and the -10% dmg taken elixirs.

I agree that the rest of the PvE doesn't prepare you for explorable tho, at all.

This game, as much as I have enjoyed it (and continue to do so) on a lot of levels, is ultimately steered by two things... the cash shop and E-Sports PvP.

To my mind the dungeons were adversely affected by the latter. 

So much so that I will be pushing GW2 to the back burner for a good while when FFXIV launches in the hope that it can deliver me with a more satisfying group PvE experience. 

Despite this though, I still have a lot of love for the game and all it's achieved, it's just that their chosen focuses make it not for me in the long run.

Originally posted by Radakill

Originally posted by pmcubed

Originally posted by Radakill

Originally posted by pmcubed

your build / group make-up is not right if you are getting 1-2 shot.

Then so is everyone elses, since Im not the only one running back from respawn points.

probably. most pick up groups don't do well because everyone brings their open world PvE specs into dungeons.  You simply won't make it through a dungeon without a ton of deaths that way.

People need toughness and vitality.  They also need condition and stun breaks.

Think of it like this:  In WoW (I assume you've played it), dungeons require sufficient gear.  In GW2, gear doesnt matter so much as the proper trait make-up and utility usage.  Group composition doesn't matter so much.   

I will agree with you, when I first played dungeons, it was a rez-fest.  But, I was specced pure glass with 10k HP @ lvl 80.

 

 

A few problems with this:

1. If you are correct and players are required to spec fully on health and armor just to make it through an instance, then why isnt there an option of 'instance only armor' to swap into for instance play? Or are you suggesting that players should now be expected to carry instance armor with them in their limited inventory space?

2. Now people will also have to respec their traits as well before an instance. When you design a game correctly, you dont put all this on the shoulders of the players, its like going through a tedious checklist everytime you enter or exit a dungeon. Terrible developement.

3. Condition and stun breaks isnt always the whole problem. Many instances simply overwealm a group with too many OP mobs. The other problems with conditons (and stuns) is, there is no immune time after you remove one. Take it off, it simply gets put right back on. Try to remove it again...ooops, gotta wait for that CD...

4. WOW dosnt require you to change all your gear just to run an instance or a raid. I have made a few adjustments to some gear in WoW based on the raid, however, your base armor you wear all the time. To even suggest you should have to completely spec in defense just to run an instance is an absurd and unrealistic expectation. WoW is an apples to oranges comparison anyway as it is very much a "holy trinity" type of game. GW2 is far from the classical 3 class types, although the insances are very much developed that way.

I very much doubt that a specific "instanc spec" was part of the development teams intentions anyway, the instances are simply out of balance for the untraditional style of play in GW2.

 

Any build capable of doing a dungeon is an effective open world PvE.

You don't need to carry instance armor but having different sets of armors isn't a bad idea.

Also a good build will have some form of offense,some form ofdefense and support to start with.

People do't need to respec if their builds are well rounded - if you on the other hand have a full damage, full support or full defensive build, then yeah you will have to change specs before going into a dungeon.

Adapting play style to situation is called depth - if you could use the same build for everything it would be quite a shallow game wouldn't it?

So yes, you don't need to respec but chaging traits in the lines you are specced with and change your weapons and utility skills load outs based on the encounters is advisable - no point in having extra damage trait with my greatsword if for that encounter I will be using a hammer instead.

Conditions - there are players able to remove multiple conditions from multiple party members, there are a little thing called COMBO FIIELDS.

So drop a combo field light for condition removal, combo field Dark or combo field Smoke for blindness vs multiple mobs, Chaos Armor and Frost Armor is also pretty decent.

So the problem is that people come from Open world PvE that is simply less challenging and so doesn't filter the bad builds. Dungeons on the other hand not only requires better builds it also requires team coordination, so yeah bad builds that do fine in open world will fail.

Guess that post broke the forums and I can't see the edit button for it.

Any build capable of doing a dungeon is an effective open world PvE.

You don't need to carry instance armor but having different sets of armors isn't a bad idea.

Also a good build will have some form of offense,some form ofdefense and support to start with.

People do't need to respec if their builds are well rounded - if you on the other hand have a full damage, full support or full defensive build, then yeah you will have to change specs before going into a dungeon.

Adapting play style to situation is called depth - if you could use the same build for everything it would be quite a shallow game wouldn't it?

So yes, you don't need to respec but chaging traits in the lines you are specced with and change your weapons and utility skills load outs based on the encounters is advisable - no point in having extra damage trait with my greatsword if for that encounter I will be using a hammer instead.

Conditions - there are players able to remove multiple conditions from multiple party members, there are a little thing called COMBO FIIELDS.

So the problem is that Dungeons are much harder than Open World PvE so Open world PvE allows crap builds to be successful while Dungeons don't and on top of that require team coordination.

Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Guess that post broke the forums and I can't see the edit button for it.

 

Any build capable of doing a dungeon is an effective open world PvE.

You don't need to carry instance armor but having different sets of armors isn't a bad idea.

Also a good build will have some form of offense,some form ofdefense and support to start with.

People do't need to respec if their builds are well rounded - if you on the other hand have a full damage, full support or full defensive build, then yeah you will have to change specs before going into a dungeon.

Adapting play style to situation is called depth - if you could use the same build for everything it would be quite a shallow game wouldn't it?

So yes, you don't need to respec but chaging traits in the lines you are specced with and change your weapons and utility skills load outs based on the encounters is advisable - no point in having extra damage trait with my greatsword if for that encounter I will be using a hammer instead.

Conditions - there are players able to remove multiple conditions from multiple party members, there are a little thing called COMBO FIIELDS.

So the problem is that Dungeons are much harder than Open World PvE so Open world PvE allows crap builds to be successful while Dungeons don't and on top of that require team coordination.

Any build capable of doing a dungeon is an effective open world PvE.

Horse spunk, there is a reason that various traits besides just defensive are in the game, including the benifites players receive from specing in a variety of traits instead of just a few. What your saying here is eveyrone that plays the game needs to be a tank to play it effectivley, and if that is the case, its a development crock of crap. Period. Just rename the game "Tank Wars" and have done with it.

You don't need to carry instance armor but having different sets of armors isn't a bad idea.

Your right, it isnt a bad idea. Its a rediculous idea.... are you serious???

Also a good build will have some form of offense,some form ofdefense and support to start with.

You just contradicted yourself if your saying a good dungeon build (ie, defense build) should be used everywhere.

People do't need to respec if their builds are well rounded - if you on the other hand have a full damage, full support or full defensive build, then yeah you will have to change specs before going into a dungeon.

I do have a well rounded build, and Im getting my ass kicked. So are the rest of the groups Ive been running with. The whole point Ive been making is players should be able to function in dungeons well enough to survive encounters with builds such as this, and not just defense.

Adapting play style to situation is called depth - if you could use the same build for everything it would be quite a shallow game wouldn't it?

I might agree to this if you could change your spec on the fly (like you can in other games such as Rift or WOW), however, in this game, I dont call it depth, I call it a pain in the ass. Im not going to a skill trainer everytime I go back and forth from open areas to instances. Again, that is an unrealistic and rediculous expectation.

So yes, you don't need to respec but chaging traits in the lines you are specced with and change your weapons and utility skills load outs based on the encounters is advisable - no point in having extra damage trait with my greatsword if for that encounter I will be using a hammer instead.

Your just pointing out the obvious here, except for one small thing, some classes cant swap out weapons unless they do it manually. This could be possible however, its rather far offtrack from this discussion. Weapon swapping wont do much when 10 mobs just vaporized you before you hit the swap key. This is a function thats used in all situations anyway so dosent even really apply to dungeons in particular.

Conditions - there are players able to remove multiple conditions from multiple party members, there are a little thing called COMBO FIIELDS.

Uh, I wouldnt rely on that table for condition removal due to the fact that only 1 of those finishers is a cond remover and also AOE in dungeons will get your arse kicked faster then you can blink. There are better ways to remove conditions then finishers, such as skills that serve that function. However, the problem with condition removal is, there are often times little to no immune period after you remove it, so many mobs can just put it right back again. Its another rediculous aspect of this development.

Originally posted by Radakill

 

Any build capable of doing a dungeon is an effective open world PvE.

Horse spunk, there is a reason that various traits besides just defensive are in the game, including the benifites players receive from specing in a variety of traits instead of just a few. What your saying here is eveyrone that plays the game needs to be a tank to play it effectivley, and if that is the case, its a development crock of crap. Period. Just rename the game "Tank Wars" and have done with it.

You don't need to carry instance armor but having different sets of armors isn't a bad idea.

Your right, it isnt a bad idea. Its a rediculous idea.... are you serious???

Also a good build will have some form of offense,some form ofdefense and support to start with.

You just contradicted yourself if your saying a good dungeon build (ie, defense build) should be used everywhere.

People do't need to respec if their builds are well rounded - if you on the other hand have a full damage, full support or full defensive build, then yeah you will have to change specs before going into a dungeon.

I do have a well rounded build, and Im getting my ass kicked. So are the rest of the groups Ive been running with. The whole point Ive been making is players should be able to function in dungeons well enough to survive encounters with builds such as this, and not just defense.

Adapting play style to situation is called depth - if you could use the same build for everything it would be quite a shallow game wouldn't it?

I might agree to this if you could change your spec on the fly (like you can in other games such as Rift or WOW), however, in this game, I dont call it depth, I call it a pain in the ass. Im not going to a skill trainer everytime I go back and forth from open areas to instances. Again, that is an unrealistic and rediculous expectation.

So yes, you don't need to respec but chaging traits in the lines you are specced with and change your weapons and utility skills load outs based on the encounters is advisable - no point in having extra damage trait with my greatsword if for that encounter I will be using a hammer instead.

Your just pointing out the obvious here, except for one small thing, some classes cant swap out weapons unless they do it manually. This could be possible however, its rather far offtrack from this discussion. Weapon swapping wont do much when 10 mobs just vaporized you before you hit the swap key. This is a function thats used in all situations anyway so dosent even really apply to dungeons in particular.

Conditions - there are players able to remove multiple conditions from multiple party members, there are a little thing called COMBO FIIELDS.

Uh, I wouldnt rely on that table for condition removal due to the fact that only 1 of those finishers is a cond remover and also AOE in dungeons will get your arse kicked faster then you can blink. There are better ways to remove conditions then finishers, such as skills that serve that function. However, the problem with condition removal is, there are often times little to no immune period after you remove it, so many mobs can just put it right back again. Its another rediculous aspect of this development.

You have a funny way of reading what I'm saying.

Somehow "don't spec on offense only" becomes "don't spec offense at all".

The base template for a PvE build is:

Choose how you dealing damage - sustained damage (power), crit based (precision), conditions (malice).

Choose a defense - health or toughness.

So don't stack only power and precision with your traits and equipment - maybe some of your equipment can have toughness or vit.

Again, you have a fun way of looking at things -have a form of defense doesn't make a defensive build.

A build capable of taking damage will do much more damage on the long run compared to a pure damage spec.

Without seeing your builds or your team builds I can't comment on that. I can only contribute my experience where my guild group run balanced builds where all of us have specced in both offense and defense.

Good thing you don't have to - you just need to change traits/weapons/skills as long as your spec is well rounded.

Actually you swap the weapons before being vaporized, so you aren't vaporized and of course the profession that can't swap weapons have their own swap techniques with changing elements and weapon kits, that allow for diverse builds. So if you know 10 mobs will come, get AoE blocks, and stuff like that. As a warrior I keep changing my ranged weapon from longbow to rifle according to the mobs. No way of learning 10 mobs will pop without seeing 10 mobs pop once though.

You aren't reading the table properly - first cleansing bolts is  condition removal as well ( Removes a condition from all nearby allies), second projectile includes arrows and bullets, so it is extremely easy to come bye.

So no, combo fields supporting skills and/or traits/runes are a much better defense vs condition than simply using skills.

Additionally many of the conditions just deal damage so regen and other heal effects and/or blocking/blindness will help.

Finally a well round build is something where your traits give you power and critical but then your equipment gives you health and or toughness or vice versa instead of your traits being focused on power and precision and then your armor being all out power, precision and +crit damage.

Dungeons are doabe without zerg rezzing (very inefficient way of doing them) as long people treat them as organized group content, so expect pugs that go in the builds designed for easy solo content to fail miserable.

You are just bad.

GW2 dungeons are very impressive in my opinion and require strategy and teamwork to accomplish successfully, even Arah isn't so bad once you learn to play, I'd actually like them to put in even harder dungeons.

This is coming from a 100% glass cannon elementalist who runs Arah. No toughness, no vitality gear and I do Arah just fine.

Not sure about the lower population servers, but for my server i'm glad there's no dungeon finder. With auto-grouping for EVERYTHING else in this game, at least we need to socialize and make friends for something.

Only people on my friends list outside of my TERA crew are people I met making dungeon groups and running with, otherwise 1-80 I didn't talk to anyone.

Personally, i'd say if you find dungeons difficult just get toughness/vitality gear and put survivability skills on all your utility bars. Problem solved.

I am glad I picked up the elementalist as my main. I haven't rolled anything else, that's how much fun I am having. Dungeons in GW2 requires communication with your group. Another thing is that some players don't understand how to properly select their abilties when they go into a dungeon, and most importantly, how abilities/combos work.

If you play with default keybindings, press "V" when ever u are getting hit. It does somekind of mysterious roll which will dodge attacks.

Id suggest to get toughness too.

I'm under impression that there's some sort conspiracy to reduce the game's difficulty so far that every path of every dungeon is solo-able.

Anyways, difficulty whining aside, the dungeons in this game do seem to have very. . . lame story (for lack of better way of wording it) following each path.

The dungeons are hard for pugs or WoW players, everyone needs to know how to do in team (communication) and the skill choices/weapon makes a huge difference.
The lore its mediocre as it is in all those instances in WoW after Vanilla, so nothing new here.

Dungeon play? Wrong game.

http://www.secondlife.com

Originally posted by GreenishBlue

I am glad I picked up the elementalist as my main. I haven't rolled anything else, that's how much fun I am having. Dungeons in GW2 requires communication with your group. Another thing is that some players don't understand how to properly select their abilties when they go into a dungeon, and most importantly, how abilities/combos work.

Pretty much this ^

And honestly, if Greenish can handle the dungeons as an elementalists (arguably the hardest class to run dungeons as, atm), then that should give some insight as to the skill gap between some of these posters.

A little communication (even just a simple ready check, followed by cntrl + T target calling), combined with decent skill choices makes the dungeons in this game soo much more manageable. There will be instances where people get downed, but it's not that hard to rally them back up in a couple seconds. That's really all most fights take. That & some basic situational awareness.

A few general points for the dungeons in this game:

1) Make sure you have enough HP for the dungeon. If you are getting 1-2 shotted by most mobs, you DO NOT have enough health. Plain and simple. Some bosses do have mechanics you are supposed to avoid that can 1-2 shot you, but this shouldn't be a common occurance. Getting hit that hard should be a surprise, not expected. In general (by lvl 80) you should have around 17-20k HP (dependant on class).

Some classes have to sacrifice a bit more than others, here are the base health pools for each class (at 80):

Base Health by Class

2) Talk to your team. Figure out what people are bringing to the dungeon, possibly even coordinate skills so you don't have 5 people all focused on conditions (which have a damage cap), or all buring 120+ second revive skills all at once.

Also, and this is KEY. Make sure you rally people as soon as you can if they go down. Don't leave people to fend for themselves unless you have no choice. Plain and simple. The more people fighting = the faster the fights will finish = the better experience everyone's going to have. If someone is just dying way too often, maybe they need to back off a bit, or maybe they need to practice their class a bit before running dungeons. Either way, keep people up as much as possible! So many people don't do this, and it's mind boggling. This game makes it soo easy.

3) A little variety doesn't hurt. Yes, you can run all dungeons (from what I've seen so far) with 5 of any class. However, it's harder to do a dungeon as 5 elementalists, then it would be if you have 5 different classes as a group. Different classes = more skill combinations you can work w/. It's not a requirement by any means, but it is something to keep inmind. If I'm running a dungeon with 4 rangers, I will often try and get something else for the 5th slot (if possible).

As for the encounters. I do agree that some are a bit lame atm. The dungeons are kinda mixed. There's some really neat fights in GW2, and there are some that are extremely boring. I think that Anet does need to step up some of the boss encounters to make them more interesting. Start w/ the dragon events (as imho, Jormag is the only interesting on atm), and start modifying some of the bosses like the nightmare tree. I may be alone on this, but I find that some of the more interesting bosses in this game have an environmental component and / or a boss that changes tactics during the fight.

The problem with GW2 dungeons are the players. I've stopped going in PUGs since 90% of them are INCREDIBLY stupid (like the op). I can do an explorable in 30 mins with guildies or in 3 hours with PUGs (and tons of silver spent on repairs).

ANET is to blame for making the game too easy though, since even a player with maxed-out gear (full exotics, right stats), who has 100% world completion and 2.000+ points, can very well be (and usually is) a total retard, who just happens to have 16 hours a day to grind easy events or abuse bugs. There's no real way to determine if someone is good or not before you see them play. I don't mind an unskilled player (no one was born knowing everything) but retards who can't be bothered to dodge/heal/listen to advice really annoy me.

As for dungeon design, they might not be as good as some WoW options and such, but most are really fun and interesting. Just go do Sorrow's Embrace in story mode if you don't believe me. (this is just a personal opinion, other people thing other dungeons are even more interesting)

If anyone is finding them awkwardly hard, just try getting in a decent guild, and form a nice group. You'll be flying through stuff soon.

Originally posted by gunmanvlad

The problem with GW2 dungeons are the players. I've stopped going in PUGs since 90% of them are INCREDIBLY stupid (like the op). I can do an explorable in 30 mins with guildies or in 3 hours with PUGs (and tons of silver spent on repairs).

ANET is to blame for making the game too easy though, since even a player with maxed-out gear (full exotics, right stats), who has 100% world completion and 2.000+ points, can very well be (and usually is) a total retard, who just happens to have 16 hours a day to grind easy events or abuse bugs. There's no real way to determine if someone is good or not before you see them play. I don't mind an unskilled player (no one was born knowing everything) but retards who can't be bothered to dodge/heal/listen to advice really annoy me.

As for dungeon design, they might not be as good as some WoW options and such, but most are really fun and interesting. Just go do Sorrow's Embrace in story mode if you don't believe me. (this is just a personal opinion, other people thing other dungeons are even more interesting)

If anyone is finding them awkwardly hard, just try getting in a decent guild, and form a nice group. You'll be flying through stuff soon.

I have to admit, I've been PUGing less and less each week. Mostly because the players I've been finding recently are usually extremely difficult to play w/ and I'm losing patience to find ones I can. Ever since the September patch (which was definitely needed) people have just been bitching about dungeon difficult left & right. I've found some people who are actually pleasant to group w/, and dungeons have been great. However (both in & out of guildies), there are just too many players who prefer to complain instead of learn. It's really frustrating to see.

That said, there are ways to tell how good a player will be (to a point). Just gotta ask the right questions. Usually finding out if someone has enough HP, or is a DPS junky are a good start.