Originally posted by Nadia

Originally posted by halflife25 

Blizzard has all the right to be 'holier than thou'. They have 9+ million players and now 10+ after MOP. For so many years it stayed at 11 and 12 million mark.

So yes a company that is capable of keeping so many people playing for such a long time does have all the right to tell you that 'they know better'. It might hurt your ego but they are right. WOW hasbeen  wrecking every other MMO for years holding number one spot. I don't see the reason why they should bend to every demand of players. And not that they don't listen. A lot of changes have been amde to WOW in accordance with what majority wanted.

WOW is not some failed MMO where you can claim that Blizzard doesn't know what it is doing.

I would never use that kind of reasoning

 

Everquest was the #1 Westerm mmo for 5 years -  from 1999 thru 2004

more subs does not mean "they know better"

 

many retail mmos released during that 5 year timespan but none had the success of EQ

until Blizzard grabbed a bigger audience

 

 

Anarchy Online

Asherons Call

City of Heroes

Dark Age of Camelot 

Earth & Beyond

Eve Online

Final Fantasy XI

Horizons (now called Isitaria)

Lineage II

Shadowbane

Star Wars Galaxies

Honestly, i do believe that having largest number of subs do mean they know better and know what they are doing. This become even more clear 'in your face' truth when you see new MMOS struggling to stay afloat. When companies struggle to keep few thousand happy, WOW has managed to keep millions.

The day a MMO is capable of keeping such a huge sub base for years they are free to claim the same. 

And by 'better' i mean they know better how to run their business. And it would be foolish to question that given the success they had over years.

Originally posted by halflife25

 

Blizzard has all the right to be 'holier than thou'. They have 9+ million players and now 10+ after MOP. For so many years it stayed at 11 and 12 million mark.

So yes a company that is capable of keeping so many people playing for such a long time does have all the right to tell you that 'they know better'. It might hurt your ego but they are right. WOW hasbeen  wrecking every other MMO for years holding number one spot. I don't see the reason why they should bend to every demand of players. And not that they don't listen. A lot of changes have been amde to WOW in accordance with what majority wanted.

WOW is not some failed MMO where you can claim that Blizzard doesn't know what it is doing.

It almost sounds like you think that it's actually the same people playing. I knew 30+ people in real life, in person, when counting relatives etc, who played WoW one to two years after it launched. After Cataclysm incident I dont know anyone, including my self. Not a single person of that big bunch, and most of the people even played through TBC too. None of them play now, at least that I know of.

Just saying, the game focuses A LOT more in entry power than staying power. It's not a bad thing at all in a business sense. I doubt not many are denying that Blizzard does not know what they are doing, they know exactly what to do in order to make money and bring in new customers. Many people simply would wish that they actually catered to the older customers of theirs even if it's not the best method of making money.

Oh and everyone talking about WoW can stop bringing numbers like 10+ million subscribers when comparing to other games in the genre, since we all know most of those numbers comes from the corners of the world where the competition is not even released. I dont care how many people play in China, I dont play there, and none of the people who visit this forum either. There could be Chinese mmorpg in China that is not released anywhere else and it had 50+ million customers, do I think it's the best mmorpg in the world now? No, no I dont.

Originally posted by halflife25

Originally posted by Nadia

Originally posted by halflife25 

Blizzard has all the right to be 'holier than thou'. They have 9+ million players and now 10+ after MOP. For so many years it stayed at 11 and 12 million mark.

So yes a company that is capable of keeping so many people playing for such a long time does have all the right to tell you that 'they know better'. It might hurt your ego but they are right. WOW hasbeen  wrecking every other MMO for years holding number one spot. I don't see the reason why they should bend to every demand of players. And not that they don't listen. A lot of changes have been amde to WOW in accordance with what majority wanted.

WOW is not some failed MMO where you can claim that Blizzard doesn't know what it is doing.

I would never use that kind of reasoning

 

Everquest was the #1 Westerm mmo for 5 years -  from 1999 thru 2004

more subs does not mean "they know better"

 

many retail mmos released during that 5 year timespan but none had the success of EQ

until Blizzard grabbed a bigger audience

 

 

Anarchy Online

Asherons Call

City of Heroes

Dark Age of Camelot 

Earth & Beyond

Eve Online

Final Fantasy XI

Horizons (now called Isitaria)

Lineage II

Shadowbane

Star Wars Galaxies

Honestly, i do believe that having largest number of subs do mean they know betetr and know what they are doing. This become even more clear 'in your face' truth when you see new MMOS struggling to stay afloat. When companies struggle to keep few thousand happy, WOW has managed to keep millions.

The day a MMO is capable of keeping such a huge sub base for years they are free to claim the same. 

Or do you not think that Blizzard came into the MMO market at the right time, had the right pitch, and took the best parts of the current games, and formed their own.  From that it was hook line and sinker.  Now, Do you really think that people believe the combat in WoW is better than, say Tera?  Or the leveling world is more engaging than a Rift or GW2?  Do people really believe that in the key aspects of an MMO, WoW just does it better?  Or is it these simple truths:

-Nostalgia

-Tima already invested

-Friends playing(playing mostly for the above two reasons).

Originally posted by Kuinn

Originally posted by halflife25

 

Blizzard has all the right to be 'holier than thou'. They have 9+ million players and now 10+ after MOP. For so many years it stayed at 11 and 12 million mark.

So yes a company that is capable of keeping so many people playing for such a long time does have all the right to tell you that 'they know better'. It might hurt your ego but they are right. WOW hasbeen  wrecking every other MMO for years holding number one spot. I don't see the reason why they should bend to every demand of players. And not that they don't listen. A lot of changes have been amde to WOW in accordance with what majority wanted.

WOW is not some failed MMO where you can claim that Blizzard doesn't know what it is doing.

 

It almost sounds like you think that it's actually the same people playing. I knew 30+ people in real life, in person, when counting relatives etc, who played WoW one to two years after it launched. After Cataclysm incident I dont know anyone, including my self. Not a single person of that big bunch, and most of the people even played through TBC too. None of them play now, at least that I know of.

 

Just saying, the game focuses A LOT more in entry power than staying power. It's not a bad thing at all in a business sense. I doubt not many are denying that Blizzard does not know what they are doing, they know exactly what to do in order to make money and bring in new customers. Many people simply would wish that they actually catered to the older customers of theirs even if it's not the best method of making money.

 

Oh and everyone talking about WoW can stop bringing numbers like 10+ million subscribers when comparing to other games in the genre, since we all know most of those numbers comes from the corners of the world where the competition is not even released. I dont care how many people play in China, I dont play there, and none of the people who visit this forum either. There could be Chinese mmorpg in China that is not released anywhere else and it had 50+ million customers, do I think it's the best mmorpg in the world now? No, no I dont.

Let us say even if it is not the same players (even though i never implied that) fact is that WOW has done something amazing. new or old, i can't think of any other MMO in P 2P category which has managed to keep such a huge player base for years.

If i start believing these forums WOW would have shut down a long time ago.

Also, if there is no compeititon in asian market doesn't mean WOW success doesn't mean anything. And not that other MMOS haven't tried. Aion, Warhammer Online now GW2 is planning to release in china.

Originally posted by grimgryphon

Oh look, another fresh, new topic posted on MMORPG.com

Now now, be polite. /wink

Originally posted by cesmode8

 

Or do you not think that Blizzard came into the MMO market at the right time, had the right pitch, and took the best parts of the current games, and formed their own.  From that it was hook line and sinker.  Now, Do you really think that people believe the combat in WoW is better than, say Tera?  Or the leveling world is more engaging than a Rift or GW2?  Do people really believe that in the key aspects of an MMO, WoW just does it better?  Or is it these simple truths:

-Nostalgia

-Tima already invested

-Friends playing(playing mostly for the above two reasons).

 

 

Entering in MMO market at right time is vital but no matter how much the timing is right and no matter how much money you have spent on advertising. if game is bad it will flop. it is that simple. WOW players are not being forced to play it.

WOW is not the only MMO with 'nostalgia' feeling by the way or the one where people have invested a lot of time. I know a lot of people always try to down play WOW's success but it is like spitting on the moon.

Give credit where credit is due. 

Originally posted by halflife25

Give credit where credit is due. 

Blizzard grew their fanbase but it wasnt just WOW -- it was all their games

both D2 and WC3 were known for selling several million before Blizzard released WOW

why else would D3 sell 10 million in the first two months before a demo was available?

(and I dont count the weekend open beta)

Blizzard had millions of fans from Diablo, Warcraft, Starcraft -- before WOW even existed

and Blizzard earned those fans

Originally posted by cinos

Yay for game hopping! :D

Play what you like, the days of sticking to one game only are long past.

   Agreed, I like to play one sub game-TSW, and 2 F2P games- Vanguard and Fallen Earth and switch around from there

Originally posted by Nadia

Originally posted by halflife25

Give credit where credit is due. 

Blizzard grew their fanbase but it wasnt just WOW -- it was all their games

 

both D2 and WC3 were known for selling several million before Blizzard released WOW

 

why else would D3 sell 10 million in the first month before a demo was available?

(and I dont count the weekend open beta)

 

Blizzard had millions of fans from Diablo, Warcraft, Starcraft -- before WOW even existed

and Blizzard earned those fans

And that is what i mean when i said 'Blizzard knows better'..as in how to conduct their business. It is no easy feet to keep such a huge player base because if it was we would have seen a lot more success stories like Blizzard and WOW.

Originally posted by halflife25

Originally posted by cesmode8

 

Or do you not think that Blizzard came into the MMO market at the right time, had the right pitch, and took the best parts of the current games, and formed their own.  From that it was hook line and sinker.  Now, Do you really think that people believe the combat in WoW is better than, say Tera?  Or the leveling world is more engaging than a Rift or GW2?  Do people really believe that in the key aspects of an MMO, WoW just does it better?  Or is it these simple truths:

-Nostalgia

-Tima already invested

-Friends playing(playing mostly for the above two reasons).

 

 

Entering in MMO market at right time is vital but no matter how much the timing is right and no matter how much money you have spent on advertising. if game is bad it will flop. it is that simple. WOW players are not being forced to play it.

WOW is not the only MMO with 'nostalgia' feeling by the way or the one where people have invested a lot of time. I know a lot of people always try to down play WOW's success but it is like spitting on the moon.

Give credit where credit is due. 

You could scream at a pack of lemmings heading off a cliff for all the good it would do also.  The point being that humans aren't exactly the most embracing of change especially when a significant amount of time has been invested.  So while I can give some credit I mostly just attribute this to the fact that Blizzard capitalized and became the top dog in the market...once that was done it wasn't difficult to maintain because there was virutally no competition and now there has been too much time that has passed where gamers have become indoctrinated (much like a criminal can become institutionalized in a prison because the outside world is too great of a change) and so making a jump means losing everything they spent their time to create only to start again in a world that hasn't been around long enough to prove to them that it has staying power. 

So let's not give too much credit either.  WoW is an old game running on old tech that they just update here and there in terms of content but as was previously stated "expansion" doesn't equate to "new game", it's still the same old same old with a few new additions to an old platform.  Apple has been the trend setter in phones for several years but that doesn't mean it should stay that way if the competition can do it better just because the name "Apple" is on it.

Originally posted by mmaize

Originally posted by halflife25

Originally posted by cesmode8

 

Or do you not think that Blizzard came into the MMO market at the right time, had the right pitch, and took the best parts of the current games, and formed their own.  From that it was hook line and sinker.  Now, Do you really think that people believe the combat in WoW is better than, say Tera?  Or the leveling world is more engaging than a Rift or GW2?  Do people really believe that in the key aspects of an MMO, WoW just does it better?  Or is it these simple truths:

-Nostalgia

-Tima already invested

-Friends playing(playing mostly for the above two reasons).

 

 

Entering in MMO market at right time is vital but no matter how much the timing is right and no matter how much money you have spent on advertising. if game is bad it will flop. it is that simple. WOW players are not being forced to play it.

WOW is not the only MMO with 'nostalgia' feeling by the way or the one where people have invested a lot of time. I know a lot of people always try to down play WOW's success but it is like spitting on the moon.

Give credit where credit is due. 

You could scream at a pack of lemmings heading off a cliff for all the good it would do also.  The point being that humans aren't exactly the most embracing of change especially when a significant amount of time has been invested.  So while I can give some credit I mostly just attribute this to the fact that Blizzard capitalized and became the top dog in the market...once that was done it wasn't difficult to maintain because there was virutally no competition and now there has been too much time that has passed where gamers have become indoctrinated (much like a criminal can become institutionalized in a prison because the outside world is too great of a change) and so making a jump means losing everything they spent their time to create only to start again in a world that hasn't been around long enough to prove to them that it has staying power. 

So let's not give too much credit either.  WoW is an old game running on old tech that they just update here and there in terms of content but as was previously stated "expansion" doesn't equate to "new game", it's still the same old same old with a few new additions to an old platform.  Apple has been the trend setter in phones for several years but that doesn't mean it should stay that way if the competition can do it better just because the name "Apple" is on it.

No APPLE shouldn't stay on top only because it is apple but because consumer like APPLE products. Now we can all turn our heads away with nose pointed towards the ceiling but that is how it is. Customers like something, there is demand for the product and that product keeps selling years after years.

If WOW wasn't a fun game it wouldn't stay on top for 8 years. it would fade away and no one would even talk about it. It has happened to lot of MMOS before and it could have hapened to WOW but it didn't. 

Brand loyalty only goes so far. If you make shitty product you will fail. Brand loyality certainly didn't help FFXIV because well it has a FF tag on it.

Originally posted by Zorgo

Originally posted by grimgryphon

Oh look, another fresh, new topic posted on MMORPG.com

Now now, be polite. /wink

Ah, you got me...

Sometimes it's very difficult with this crowd.

Claiming GW2 does a lot of things better is a subjective statement. I did try it - don't think the same.This is literally 1st  leaving thread I encountered since the release of MoP when in the same time after the GW2 release every single thread on live feed was "OMG GW2 SUXXXXX - GOING BACK TO -insert game-".

MoP was so far very enjoyable for me and is better than Cataclysm in every way possible. It actually has some degree of exploration and rewarding that (rare elites, buried treasures, hidden dailies or hidden chests). No, I do not suffer from "rose glasses" syndrom. Cata butchered subs base and chances are that if MoP released after WotLK we wouldn't see the "3 million sub" drop. People are slowly returning, word of mouth will slowly spread. The only thing that people are unhappy about are large amount of dailies. Everyone agrees on that.

Anyway, I'm glad you found your game but your post would be much more credible without "GW2 is better." For some, it isn't.

Both games are mind numbing boring.

I made the mistake to go back to WoW after being bored to death with GW2, only to promptly cancel my WoW account again. GW2 has taught me that MMOs as they are now are just terrible and it will help me save my money from new releases until the EXACT MMO that I want is released.

I will never preorder another MMO for the rest of my life, I have been burned way to much the last few years, and this includes MoP.

Originally posted by cesmode8

Originally posted by Praetalus

Originally posted by cesmode8

As the title reads, the game hasnt changed one bit aside from a talent overhaul, which they do every expansion(get ready for another one in two years), increased level cap, new race and class(like they havent done this before), and a poor attempt at adding some subpar endgame systems such as scenarios(rift does this better) and pokemon. 

Unsubbed, heading back to GW2.  By far a superior game in most facets.

 

 

I am so happy to hear this... now I can sleep tonight! We, over in WoW were just waiting for you to leave. You should have seen the party!

 

Seriously, I'm playing both right now. I don't understand why some of you have to pick a side and be so damn gung ho. 

 

It is because in the WoW world, when you merely mention another game in any of the wow-fanboi sites, like mmochamp, people jump all over you and troll you.  How dare someone say that another game is going to be good, or is good.  WoW must be the end all be all, according to the 10 million nostalgic players.

 

This is the exact reason why The WoW community and it's game has the most hatred/dislike/bashing/etc. I honestly do not feel bad for them either. Their continued lashing out of newer games and of course their "fail" junk, has made them the worst in all of the MMO scene.

Truthfully, I would rather them stay in their own game and leave the others alone. I know for one that when I do play play an mmo and a Wow kid chants his chants, I /block them right off. (We all know who they are because the first thing out of their mouth is "This sucks, WoW is better".)

I'm not bashing or trolling the WoW community. I'm just pointing out the factors you have made for yourselves. Had you chosen to be better people and a better community, you might have an ounce of respect from those of us that do not play your game. That is something to think about when you do play others games. :)

Originally posted by Razperil

Originally posted by cesmode8

Originally posted by Praetalus

Originally posted by cesmode8

As the title reads, the game hasnt changed one bit aside from a talent overhaul, which they do every expansion(get ready for another one in two years), increased level cap, new race and class(like they havent done this before), and a poor attempt at adding some subpar endgame systems such as scenarios(rift does this better) and pokemon. 

Unsubbed, heading back to GW2.  By far a superior game in most facets.

 

 

I am so happy to hear this... now I can sleep tonight! We, over in WoW were just waiting for you to leave. You should have seen the party!

 

Seriously, I'm playing both right now. I don't understand why some of you have to pick a side and be so damn gung ho. 

 

It is because in the WoW world, when you merely mention another game in any of the wow-fanboi sites, like mmochamp, people jump all over you and troll you.  How dare someone say that another game is going to be good, or is good.  WoW must be the end all be all, according to the 10 million nostalgic players.

 

This is the exact reason why The WoW community and it's game has the most hatred/dislike/bashing/etc. I honestly do not feel bad for them either. Their continued lashing out of newer games and of course their "fail" junk, has made them the worst in all of the MMO scene.

Truthfully, I would rather them stay in their own game and leave the others alone. I know for one that when I do play play an mmo and a Wow kid chants his chants, I /block them right off. (We all know who they are because the first thing out of their mouth is "This sucks, WoW is better".)

I'm not bashing or trolling the WoW community. I'm just pointing out the factors you have made for yourselves. Had you chosen to be better people and a better community, you might have an ounce of respect from those of us that do not play your game. That is something to think about when you do play others games. :)

Interesting

Originally posted by halflife25

Originally posted by mmaize

Originally posted by halflife25

Originally posted by cesmode8

 

Or do you not think that Blizzard came into the MMO market at the right time, had the right pitch, and took the best parts of the current games, and formed their own.  From that it was hook line and sinker.  Now, Do you really think that people believe the combat in WoW is better than, say Tera?  Or the leveling world is more engaging than a Rift or GW2?  Do people really believe that in the key aspects of an MMO, WoW just does it better?  Or is it these simple truths:

-Nostalgia

-Tima already invested

-Friends playing(playing mostly for the above two reasons).

 

 

Entering in MMO market at right time is vital but no matter how much the timing is right and no matter how much money you have spent on advertising. if game is bad it will flop. it is that simple. WOW players are not being forced to play it.

WOW is not the only MMO with 'nostalgia' feeling by the way or the one where people have invested a lot of time. I know a lot of people always try to down play WOW's success but it is like spitting on the moon.

Give credit where credit is due. 

You could scream at a pack of lemmings heading off a cliff for all the good it would do also.  The point being that humans aren't exactly the most embracing of change especially when a significant amount of time has been invested.  So while I can give some credit I mostly just attribute this to the fact that Blizzard capitalized and became the top dog in the market...once that was done it wasn't difficult to maintain because there was virutally no competition and now there has been too much time that has passed where gamers have become indoctrinated (much like a criminal can become institutionalized in a prison because the outside world is too great of a change) and so making a jump means losing everything they spent their time to create only to start again in a world that hasn't been around long enough to prove to them that it has staying power. 

So let's not give too much credit either.  WoW is an old game running on old tech that they just update here and there in terms of content but as was previously stated "expansion" doesn't equate to "new game", it's still the same old same old with a few new additions to an old platform.  Apple has been the trend setter in phones for several years but that doesn't mean it should stay that way if the competition can do it better just because the name "Apple" is on it.

No APPLE shouldn't stay on top only because it is apple but because consumer like APPLE products. Now we can all turn our heads away with nose pointed towards the ceiling but that is how it is. Customers like something, there is demand for the product and that product keeps selling years after years.

If WOW wasn't a fun game it wouldn't stay on top for 8 years. it would fade away and no one would even talk about it. It has happened to lot of MMOS before and it could have hapened to WOW but it didn't. 

Brand loyalty only goes so far. If you make shitty product you will fail. Brand loyality certainly didn't help FFXIV because well it has a FF tag on it.

 

Well you're really just making my case for me again.  Apple, using the same example, is on top not so much because consumers know what's best but because Apple became the household name in phones.  So it became the "in" thing for everyone to have an iphone.  Now there are phones that have surpassed it but will people make the jump?  No, not until the rest of the pack decides that say the Lumia for example is now the "in" thing.  Supply and demand is what it is because of human behavior, doesn't make it smart behavior in fact we know it's not you don't have to look any further than turning on the television or seeing what shows have the highest ratings and seeing things like "Honey Boo Boo" or "Housewives" to know that.  

So back to the actual  example of WoW just because people stay in it for 8 years doesn't make it fun.  If you look at what I said about human behavior and becoming indoctrinated or institutionalized some people are  just used to doing the same things over and over and once invested it's what they know and don't really want to know anything else.  Now that's not to say that all people don't have fun but it also doesn't say that all people playing WoW do actually have fun.  I suppose "fun" is a relative term.  Personally I haven't had fun in WoW since vanilla but for a while I too was one of the ones that became indoctrinated because it was a large time investment that I had to give up to leave that coupled with the fact that friends played and they too weren't about to leave anytime soon mostly because of the same reasons.  As for it happening to a lot of MMOs before that is an innacurate statement because you'd have to use MMOs prior to WoW not after because anything after was going up against a giant that already cornered the market which is why everything is compared to WoW.

It's not brand loyalty..there are actually few that care anymore about the brand especially in today's world where one screw up and the brand is crap in the eyes of the public.  It's the timing Blizzard had and the time they were the king in a market without any real competition.

Originally posted by cesmode8

Originally posted by elocke

Originally posted by cinos

Yay for game hopping! :D

Play what you like, the days of sticking to one game only are long past.

I agree with this.  Let's stop the "this game is better than this game" hyperbole arguments and just enjoy whatever game you want at any given time.  Plenty out there to do that with and plenty more in the pipeline.  I know I'm going to change my viewpoint as I am taking a break from GW2 and am enjoying WoW:MoP.  Next week, I'll hop back into Lotro for the Rohan expansion and enjoy that and eventually hop back to GW2 to enjoy the Holiday patch and so on and so forth with a handful of other MMOs. 

If anything, the only issue I have with trying to hop is paying a sub fee for a few of the games just to enjoy a week or 2 of new content.  I much prefer Lotro's hybrid system or GW2s buy to play.   Hopefully TSW goes hybrid soon.

Its Vigo the carpathian again!

 

Lol!  Yep, I'm still here.

Originally posted by cesmode8

Originally posted by Praetalus

Originally posted by cesmode8

As the title reads, the game hasnt changed one bit aside from a talent overhaul, which they do every expansion(get ready for another one in two years), increased level cap, new race and class(like they havent done this before), and a poor attempt at adding some subpar endgame systems such as scenarios(rift does this better) and pokemon. 

Unsubbed, heading back to GW2.  By far a superior game in most facets.

 

 

I am so happy to hear this... now I can sleep tonight! We, over in WoW were just waiting for you to leave. You should have seen the party!

 

Seriously, I'm playing both right now. I don't understand why some of you have to pick a side and be so damn gung ho. 

 

It is because in the WoW world, when you merely mention another game in any of the wow-fanboi sites, like mmochamp, people jump all over you and troll you.  How dare someone say that another game is going to be good, or is good.  WoW must be the end all be all, according to the 10 million nostalgic players.

 

Yeah and here you get jumped by the Diehard GW2 fanboi brigade.

Pot meets kettle.