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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Pathfinder Online, why it will fail, and why you shouldn't give them any money...

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30 posts found

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/14/10
Posts: 1973

10/08/12 6:12:46 PM#21
Originally posted by Dulu

Phlacc, read my post again.


I would never work for a company like this, I'm happily employed. After watching the video of them begging for money ($100,000 donations ONLY please, thanks! - Goblinworks), I just wanted to do some research, to see what kind of people they were hiring.


Well, it turns out, they're not looking for visionaries, or talent. They're looking for people who can produce the same shit games we already have.


They can't have it both ways. They can't say "We're making something new and revolutionary." and say "We're only hiring people who have experience in producing trash for mass consumption to make as much money as possible."


They simply don't jive.

They just said a game that has shipped. . that could be anything.  I messed around with Unity and developed a few mobile and web apps that were multiplayer etc.  I have a friends who basically has designed an entire MMO etc. and messed around.  The more we play around the more we realize how much we still need to learn.  They want someone who has worked on a "shipped" game because they will have experienced the entire process.  Mortal Online "shipped" etc.  It doesn't mean WoW over again - it means actual experience with the entire process of making an MMO.


Also there are many people out there who would happily play a WoW 1.5. . many people enjoy WoW (I am not one of them). 

Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!


Advanced Member

Joined: 8/08/03
Posts: 2358

10/08/12 6:21:41 PM#22
Originally posted by Dulu

Let me break this down one final time.



This company is saying "We want to revolutionize the MMO market. We want to make something unlike anything ever released".


Then, when you dig deeper, they are explicitly stating they will ONLY hire designers who have experience making the very thing they are trying to revolutionize.


Do you people want the same DESIGNER who worked on Warhammer Online, Age of Conan, etc designing new games?



Does no one on this site have a sense of irony, or a hypocrisy detector?

 Umm sure.

#1 the game will more likely actually make it to launch due to real world experience, granted theres something to be said for fresh out of school enthusiasm but alot of times exprience trumps out.

#2 just because they worked on a previous game title means they can only make the same thing, really? What school did you go to where once one has worked on something their mindset and vision is locked into just that one view? people change, and Learn and sometimes they learn from experience how to get things done and what things just won't work no matter how good they look in your imagination.

#3 they probably already have more then a few fresh out of school ideology filled inexperienced devs they need someone with experience to anchor them and make sure the game actually makes it to launch. Saying they should only hire new fresh out of school or older devs with no current experience seems a bit nieve to me


Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 18245

10/08/12 7:24:47 PM#23
Originally posted by Dulu

Let me break this down one final time.



This company is saying "We want to revolutionize the MMO market. We want to make something unlike anything ever released".


Then, when you dig deeper, they are explicitly stating they will ONLY hire designers who have experience making the very thing they are trying to revolutionize.


Do you people want the same DESIGNER who worked on Warhammer Online, Age of Conan, etc designing new games?



Does no one on this site have a sense of irony, or a hypocrisy detector?

They are asking for designers with experience. It doesn't specifically say "wow". And even if they get wow designers (and Im' sure they would love to have them) that doesn't mean those designers are going to steer their project toward "a wow clone". I listened to the video and there is absolutely nothing that says what you are claiming. They keep saying sandbox, making games that players want to play, that the players need to let them know what they want, etc.

The entire video was gone through and absolutley nothing you are claiming is there.

They want experienced people. GOOD. Then they are going to be a better comapny for it and actually attract investors if they show they have experienced people.

So please, point us to where they say they are only hiring so they can create another game of the same type.

Just because someone designed for warhammer, AoC or any other game does't mean they can't design another type of game.

For some reason you think that the only thing a designer can do is "one type of game".

edit: as far as the 100k investment, I can only say that there are mutal funds that require high minimum investments. There are funds  that reward investors with reduced fees if they  put down 100k as a minimum.

One reason for the high investment is to draw serious investors. It is a larger commitment for someone to put down a large amount of money.

Some funds dont' like smaller investors as they don' want these investors putting in money and then selling off stock as it can impact the fund. I'm not sure how this equates to a company other than they are looking for serious investors.


Novice Member

Joined: 8/16/09
Posts: 2621

10/08/12 7:32:48 PM#24

Can't get the skills without already having the skills.  That's the life of a millennial.  Watch the US economy really tank when the baby boomers retire, and the majority of those left in the workforce are millennials working minimum wage jobs trying to pay of mountains of student loan debt.  

That said, I'm interested in the game, but Pathfinder Online probably will fail.  I've said this before, but MMOs are expensive, and even triple A publishers frequently run out of funding for the game and have to shut down the service.  How can I honestly expect that an indy company that doesn't even have enough cash to begin development will be any less of a failure?


Advanced Member

Joined: 7/13/10
Posts: 1171

I want an mmorpg where pvp matters, my enemies are not my race or class, and community matters.

10/08/12 7:40:48 PM#25
Originally posted by Dulu

So, I was checking out Pathfinder Online... They have no game footage on display yet, but they're asking for money. Apparently, investors only want to invest in a company that is going the "traditional route" and making games like "WoW 1.5" (Their words, video attached)



Well, I did some research on the company, and this is what I found... Apparently, they are hiring, but only people who have worked on plopping out the same old trash we've seen for literally the past 5 years. They won't consider anyone who has worked in the field prior to WoW, or is a fresh Grad like myself.

I just found it funny. These people are not interested in making a revolutionary game. They want to make money. They can't get investors, so they want YOU to give them your money.

Job Posting for Game Designer, PVE:

"we're particularly interested in applicants who have worked on an MMO that was actually shipped and operated as a live game.

Knowledge of the Pathfinder intellectual property is a plus but not a requirement.  A history as a tabletop hobby gamer is also a plus, not a requirement.

Candidate should be able to show a prior work on scripted multi-part encounter designs

What are my new job responsibilities?

  • Design create immersive and interesting missions and quests for characters involved in many different kinds of activities including crafting, transportation, diplomacy, harvesting, territorial defense, exploration and monster hunting

What are my new job requirements?

  • Prior experience working with a shipped videogame title
  • Ability to clearly communicate needs and processes to programmers and artists

What would set me apart from other candidates?

  • Prior experience working on an MMO operating in a live environment in the past 5 years
  • Previous work developing cTerriomponents for a large videogame title especially an MMO"

Territorial defense sounds good ;)


Novice Member

Joined: 4/05/05
Posts: 67

10/08/12 8:02:42 PM#26

I would like to add 2 points....


1.  We are capitalists, in a capitalist world, if you think game makers are into charity, you are sadly mistaken.


2. for what it is worth, Pathfinder took the torch that Wizards of the Coast crapped on when they made 4th edition & have made a great table top rp game, Wizards has been allowing crap games to be made for years on the D&D name.

I hope they make a great game, only time will tell I guess.


Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/24/05
Posts: 2367

10/09/12 12:39:35 AM#27
Originally posted by ferndip

I would like to add 2 points....


1.  We are capitalists, in a capitalist world, if you think game makers are into charity, you are sadly mistaken.


2. for what it is worth, Pathfinder took the torch that Wizards of the Coast crapped on when they made 4th edition & have made a great table top rp game, Wizards has been allowing crap games to be made for years on the D&D name.

I hope they make a great game, only time will tell I guess.

That as it might be... At least they were kind enough to do the open D20 licence so games like Pathfinder could be made. (and a lot of other games that never should have seen thew light of day... Like the first Warcraft rpg and the D20 Cuthulu game) that way people could get the best of both worlds.


And in all honesty looking at the amount of books for the 3 and 3.5 ruleset i do not really feel there is all that much missing that thye chouls have released.


Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 17419

10/09/12 1:00:07 AM#28
Originally posted by Cuathon

Do you understand that the coder isn't what makes the game revolutionary? The designer does that. It doesn't matter if you were a coder on a WoW clone or on ATITD, you aren't the designer. And furthermore having made such a mainstream MMO says nothing about your desires anyways. I know many people who worked on commercial titles who hated it and wanted to make cool games but they weren't lead designers so they didn't have a choice.

I am somewhat suspicious of Pathfinder. Generally you need a working demo or in progress engine like Repopulation has before you start begging for cash.

Agreed. I would in fact not mind Wows programmers for making a sandbox game at all.

Sure, a sandbox needs to make tools for the players to create their own content but a good experienced programmer is a good experienced programmer.

And I have checked them out too, this is really what Pathfinder needs if they want to succeed. It is also what made MO and DF so small games, their programmers are rather sad, both of those games would have had at least 10 times the players with some competent coders.

All that said, Pathfinder is not really the IP that should be made into a sandbox. I like Pathfinder but it would work better as a mix between DDO and GW2 than a sandbox. There are many other P&P IPs that would make better sandboxes such as Shadowrun, Runequest or Delta green.


Novice Member

Joined: 11/05/10
Posts: 897

10/09/12 1:01:29 AM#29
OP, are you under the impression that all these designers of existing MMOs cannot come up with something new and different? I think you read too much into it. Even if companies stated they wanted to revolutionize their industry they only hire people who have experience in the said field. The only way for a virtual nobody to be noticed is to create something as big as Minecraft, DoTA mod, DayZ mod, etc.

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/04/08
Posts: 82

10/09/12 1:20:46 AM#30

Hi @Dulu! Happy to address your questions.

We are making a next-generation fantasy sandbox MMO.

Next-gen means it will be smaller, cheaper and faster to market than the current AAA MMOs.

To do that we need to make it a sandbox, not a WoW-style theme park.

The reason theme parks cost too much and take too long to make is that the developers need to ship a thousand hours of PvE content before they can ship anything. To pay back the budget required they need hundreds of thousands (and in some cases millions) of players to pay to play at launch.

Making a sandbox means we can release a game with great mechanics and systems and let the players be their own content.

Our Lead Designer is Lee Hammock who was a design lead on Fallen Earth. He's spent the last few yeas working at ZeniMax on Elder Scrolls Online.

Lee is committed to helping us reach our design goals in interesting and innovative ways.

We are currently funded with private money plus the proceeds from our Technology Demo Kickstarter. We have nearly finished work on the Demo and will have lots of footage to show shortly after we return from GDC Online which we're attending this week.

We publish a bi-weekly blog that goes into deep details about the game and our objectives and strategies.

You can read the blogs here: Goblinworks Website

Ryan S. Dancey
CEO Goblinworks

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