Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Lawlmonster
TL;DR

I'd imagine a person like you would give their unreserved support only B2P games, possibly with a strictly cosmetic and service oriented CS.

I certainly think it's the most beneficial platform for players, though I'm more than willing to pay a subscription fee for a game before I spend my time with something that's made profitable by microtransactions. Like I mentioned, I have a problem with commerce and finance calling shotgun over art in the caddy wagon of success.

Originally posted by CalmOceans

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by CalmOceans

Originally posted by VultureSkull

We the customer have driven the market into creating cash shops and it was not the other away around

what?

The cash shops in games came directly from Asian games who had it, not a single person in the West asked for this.

And as far as people buying old, not everyone buys gold in games, not everyone uses a credit card to go buy gold from some chinese farmers who will probably end up stealing your credit card.

Now it's our fault? Not the fault of the developers trying to nickle and dime every last penny from the consumer?

You can't be serious.

I know so many people whined and complained and protested SoE and many straight up LEFT Everquest when they implemented a cash shop, but you're trying to blame the players?

You don't see the contradiction in your statement because you have accepted your personal perception as fact.

• "not a single person in the West asked for this"
• "not everyone buys gold in games"
• "so many people complained" "many straight up left"
• "the fault of the developers trying to nickle and dime every last penny from the consumer"

 

Well, wait a second here. You say players don't want this and they aren't buying game gold and they are leaving the games because of this option, but then go on to say the companies are trying to "nickel and dime" the playerbase. Are you saying MMO gamers (except you, of course) are all extremely stupid and they will spend money they don't want to spend on things they don't want in games they don't like?

If they don't want this, don't buy game gold and are leaving the games, how are the MMO companies making money?

You're suggesting that the game devs are manipulative and greedy, but then suggesting they will use a business model that the audience doesn't like or want. There's no logic to your reasoning there.

 

I see many posts of you and most don't make sense.

I said NOT EVERYONE buys gold, and MANY disagreed with P2P made into cash shop games. I didn't say EVERYONE.

And because some use the cash shop does not mean EVERYONE agrees with this.

How is that concept so hard to grasp, jesus.

Sorry if my post comes over harch but I have argued with people like you before, who purpously refuse to see any logic in someone's post even though the original post is crystal clear, arguing back and forth. 1 explanation for you, not 2, I have no time for this.

Actually, your response to the statement that this is customer driven was to say the customer did not want this. To address your "I didnt say EVERYONE" point, your exact reply was "not a single person in the West asked for this."

I'm sorry that many posts of me don't make sense to you. That your contention is to say "I don't have time for this" rather than to try to understand is disappointing. However, it doesn't change the fact that it is an illogical leap to say the companies are greedy and then try to suggest they are using a monetization system that the target audience is most resistant to.

Originally posted by Vesavius

Cash shops are fundamentally bad for game design in the genre...

Can't that be said about subscriptions, as well?

A monthly subscription revenue could just as easily be tied to the level/faction/raid/gear grind-based game design of the majority of MMOs.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Vesavius

Cash shops are fundamentally bad for game design in the genre...

Can't that be said about subscriptions, as well?

A monthly subscription revenue could just as easily be tied to the level/faction/raid/gear grind-based game design of the majority of MMOs.

I am not talking about retention mechanics here specifically, because you are right, most of these make for pretty lackluster game play whatever the model.

Cash shops bring a whole raft of required bad design elements into the game on top of retention systems though.

i dont blame asian influence for cash shops

mmos have been trying to raise more revenue for years

SOE had something similar to D3 Real money AH back in 2006 (Station Exchange)

except it included selling characters too

even before some mmos added Cash shop, you had the spinoff Trading Card games

where players could spend hundreds of dollars on ebay for loot card ingame items

card game items like WOW Spectral Tiger mount ($1000.00)  or EQ2 Shrink Cloak ($100.00)

http://www.wowwiki.com/Reins_of_the_Swift_Spectral_Tiger

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Vesavius

Cash shops are fundamentally bad for game design in the genre...

Can't that be said about subscriptions, as well?

A monthly subscription revenue could just as easily be tied to the level/faction/raid/gear grind-based game design of the majority of MMOs.

I am not talking about retention mechanics here specifically, because you are right, most of these make for pretty lackluster game play whatever the model.

Cash shops bring a whole raft of required bad design elements into the game on top of retention systems though.

I guess I can agree there. With the way many cash shops are designed, it's hard to tell whether some devs are exploiting the system to its fullest (gachapon, for example) or they're simply just trying to embrace something they don't fully understand yet (o hai, monocle).

Cash shops are not inherently bad but cash shops comes in many forms.

Some compliment gameplay and others make it a near necessity to use, in order for you to feel you get a complete experience and the complete fun you can have with the title. The latter is one of the evils of the concept

Some of you are very defensive about cash shops in its current form. A stance you probably wouldn't have taken 10 years ago, but it seems, the line crossed, is moved every year where people are a bit more accepting of what developers are trying to push through. They are very sneaky about it too. You don't get it all at once. It starts with a little experimentation, going a bit further than your competitor.

Believe me the cash shops are still in its infancy concept wise. They have not even begun the nickle and diming yet. If somebody comes along and want to take a stance against this development, then there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Some of you really need to check yourselves, if you think your opinions are the 'right ones' and everyone elses is wrong. If you support this development then more power to you, I won't argue with you. I just hope for your sake you don't sit on message boards 10 years from now, complaining how you can't break a wind without having to pay 5 bucks for it. You supported this and helped show the way

I also think that cash shops can be used in the right way but generally speaking they are not for many reasons that are quite obvious.  I once played a f2p game( I no longer play ) which I was spending average $50/month and even with that much money that I spent within amonth it was impossible to compete with many other players who spend a lot more.

So that brings up two issues, one is that the players are stupid enough to pay ourageous amounts of money if they can justify playing it in their own mind.  The other is that the creators have no issues with a person paying $300+/month to play a free game.

Don't get me wrong I am always happy to pay for playing a game that I like to play which gives me entertainment but after seeing so many cash shop games that can easily be classified as p2w to p2hf( pay to have fun ) it really leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth that I just can't get rid of.

I have no idea what if at all there is a solution to this issue but I am more an more in favor of monthly subscriptions as a result of this.  And I think that over time those people who pay outrageous amounts of money will come to this same realization and the trend of cash shop games might go back to being monthly memberships.  But that is just speculation and I have no idea how things will turn out in 5 years from now because there will always be more suckers as the new flock of gamers emerge from the next generations.

"There are after all layers in hell."

Indeed there are, which of us has not had to sup with the devil to play a MMO they like the look of?

- - -

We have consistently on this site said no to cash shops. It has made no difference.

Many players on official forums have also said no. It has made no difference.

So I do think it is true that against the wishes of most players cash shops have been forced on us.

In answer to the manipulative greedy devs question, you do know that gaming companies are run by businessmen who call the shots? It is corporate mentality that loves the idea of a cash shop and they see them as a saviour at a time when MMO subscriptions are not sustainable in even the medium term. The fact that players will not play a game because of a cash shop or leave early does not seem to be a concern.

We complain but do nothing. It is like pre-order, we know that pre-order allows companies to get away with releasing a incomplete game. We complain about it, but we still buy pre-oreder. I don't btw, but I have played in games with a cash shop.

Originally posted by worldalpha
Sorry?!  F2P is the only model I think that can work for my game.  If I thought every player would pay $20 for it and I could make it viable, then I'd do it.

I have no problem with F2P, just on't want a cash shop.

if they can get financially stable by other means - like using real-life products in game, advertizing, etc, i'm fine with that.

F2P without a cash shop would be as Free to play as it gets.

Players in the West have been complaining about the subscription model for years. The fans of GW2 were triumphant in declaring the sub model as "finally dead". Countless posts on these forums have celebrated the demise of the subscription model. When TSW was about to launch, the forum had many posts proclaiming that they wouldn't be playing the game, because it was a subscription-only game.

Nowhere on the internet in any gaming forums have I seem an overwhelming support for subscription-model games. Quite the contrary.

It's no wonder that game developers have listened to the majority of their customers. However, those developers still have to make a profit selling games, else they may as well use their talents to build social media apps or accounting applications. So the Cash Shop was born.

If you don't want to pay a subscription and don't want a Cash Shop, then the only way a game developer can make money is to sell you a box copy. That means they will earn the same from a MMO as they would make from building a single-player game. Given that MMO's cost 2 to 3 times more money to develop than SPG's, that is not going to happen.