Yes, Because our Prisons are not already overcrowded and Police overworked and freedoms totally comprimised as it is. =/

Let them police their own industry and interests. Let the court system deal with criminals.

Originally posted by Betaguy

Originally posted by aesperus

Originally posted by Aerowyn
you are making money off of someone else's product illegally.. don't see it any differn't than people who rip movies or games and sell pirated copies and that's a felony... 

The thing is, it's not a question of 'if' gold selling is illegal. It is illegal. The issue comes down to how to prosecute it. When dealing w/ gold sellers (and especially ones that hack), you are nearly always dealing w/ an internation incident. Issues with Intellectual Property, especially digital IP, are typically handled very poorly internationally.

Different countries have different laws around these issues, and they also prioritize them much differently. Western companies tend to persue these issues much more aggressively, because a lot of our money in the west comes from our inovations. Eastern companies are typically not as aggressive about it.

Anet & Blizzard aren't even the only major companies to have to deal w/ issues like blatant EULA breaks. Companies like Google & Apple have also had their share of trouble in dealing w/ IP issues overseas as well. Gold selling has always been illegal, but it's up to the countries who are harboring these criminals to each handle them on their own. It's also a question of how much pressure MMO companies can put on these countries to prosecute & crack down on gold sellers. For some countries it's more effective, but for some of the major offenders (like China) it just doesn't work.

It is not illegal to sell currency in video games.  That is a croc...

It's not against the law, but it is against an individual companies guidelines, namely their EULA.  Game companies can go after anyone who breaks these rules.  For small time deals like an account sale, they generally don't care (not worth the time or money), but they reserve the right to serve litigation against those who habitually violate their rules, specifically, gold farmers & account hackers (stealers).

So it's not against the law to sell currency, but it is a break in a contractual agreement between the company and the user, which leads to someone being sued.  This is why MMO companies take gold selling sites to court and (sometimes) win (Blizzard did this many times).  Court details are generally interesting, because a gold seller is asked where they got the currency they sold.

---

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

---

Originally posted by strangepower  

---

Originally posted by just1opinion

---

Originally posted by Aerowyn

---

Originally posted by strangepower  

---

Originally posted by Aerowyn you are making money off of someone else's product illegally.. don't see it any differn't than people who rip movies or games and sell pirated copies and that's a felony... 

---

  With that sort of rationale you would see it fit to charge the gold buyers with a felony too for facilitation of a Black Market, like busting the john and the prostitute as well? Sounds like a well thought out idea...

---

yes same as it's illegal to buy pirated copies of video games.. usually the punishment is worse for the supplier than the buyer as with most things

---

    I understand what you're saying and I agree with you.  The same people that think gold farming and selling gold is okay are probably the people that think ripping CDs or movies and selling them is okay.  Intellectual copyright laws mean nothing to these people, but they do to me and I agree with what you've said.  

---

  How do you draw the parallel between copyright infringement and gold selling?  

---

The line is drawn when the selling of gold prevents or causes the developer of the software to lose money or prevents them obtaining the money.  That won't happen until the developer themselves start selling gold. 

---

In the music industry, copyright is infringed when IP is stolen, not just because one's activities cause a loss of revenue.

The activities that can cause revenue loss are many... but a dude stealing gold from another's account is not infringing anyone's ability to earn revenue, the game company already has it via box and/or sub.

cop·y·right? [kop-ee-rahyt]
1.
the exclusive right to make copies, license, and otherwise exploit a literary, musical, or artistic work, whether printed, audio, video, etc.: works granted such right by law on or after January 1, 1978, are protected for the lifetime of the author or creator and for a period of 50 years after his or her death.

*****************

tl;dr: There is no parallel. To often users toss out terms or ideas they don't fully understand, such as threatening to inform the BBB; which is met by educating them that the BBB is in fact a scam.

Originally posted by strangepower

 

 

In the music industry, copyright is infringed when IP is stolen, not just because one's activities cause a loss of revenue.

The activities that can cause revenue loss are many... but a dude stealing gold from another's account is not infringing anyone's ability to earn revenue, the game company already has it via box and/or sub.

cop·y·right? [kop-ee-rahyt]
1.
the exclusive right to make copies, license, and otherwise exploit a literary, musical, or artistic work, whether printed, audio, video, etc.: works granted such right by law on or after January 1, 1978, are protected for the lifetime of the author or creator and for a period of 50 years after his or her death.

*****************

tl;dr: There is no parallel. To often users toss out therms they don't fully understand, such as threatening to inform the BBB; which is met by educating them that the BBB is in fact a scam.

what if the game developers sell gold ingame as part of their revenue?

---

Originally posted by Aerowyn

---

Originally posted by strangepower     In the music industry, copyright is infringed when IP is stolen, not just because one's activities cause a loss of revenue. The activities that can cause revenue loss are many... but a dude stealing gold from another's account is not infringing anyone's ability to earn revenue, the game company already has it via box and/or sub. cop·y·right? [kop-ee-rahyt] 1. the exclusive right to make copies, license, and otherwise exploit a literary, musical, or artistic work, whether printed, audio, video, etc.: works granted such right by law on or after January 1, 1978, are protected for the lifetime of the author or creator and for a period of 50 years after his or her death. ***************** tl;dr: There is no parallel. To often users toss out therms they don't fully understand, such as threatening to inform the BBB; which is met by educating them that the BBB is in fact a scam.

---

what if the game developers sell gold ingame as part of their revenue?

---

As in the case with GW2?

You have to understand that any team of lawyers considering legal action always consider the loss/benefit factors when pursuing a suit.

The numbers would have to be through the roof before a team was assembled to tackle a legitimate threat to revenue because of gold sellers.

It is more cost efficient to have game admins and IT ban accounts and IP's.

And even if, playing devil's advocate, Anet or anyone else suffered revenue loss it is still not an infringement of copyright.

It's scamming, hacking, cyber terrorism (I kid), but whatever it is, IP was not affected.

Originally posted by strangepower

 

---

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

---

Originally posted by strangepower  

---

Originally posted by just1opinion

---

Originally posted by Aerowyn

---

Originally posted by strangepower  

---

Originally posted by Aerowyn you are making money off of someone else's product illegally.. don't see it any differn't than people who rip movies or games and sell pirated copies and that's a felony... 

---

  With that sort of rationale you would see it fit to charge the gold buyers with a felony too for facilitation of a Black Market, like busting the john and the prostitute as well? Sounds like a well thought out idea...

---

yes same as it's illegal to buy pirated copies of video games.. usually the punishment is worse for the supplier than the buyer as with most things

---

    I understand what you're saying and I agree with you.  The same people that think gold farming and selling gold is okay are probably the people that think ripping CDs or movies and selling them is okay.  Intellectual copyright laws mean nothing to these people, but they do to me and I agree with what you've said.  

---

  How do you draw the parallel between copyright infringement and gold selling?  

---

The line is drawn when the selling of gold prevents or causes the developer of the software to lose money or prevents them obtaining the money.  That won't happen until the developer themselves start selling gold. 

---

 

In the music industry, copyright is infringed when IP is stolen, not just because one's activities cause a loss of revenue.

The activities that can cause revenue loss are many... but a dude stealing gold from another's account is not infringing anyone's ability to earn revenue, the game company already has it via box and/or sub.

cop·y·right? [kop-ee-rahyt]
1.
the exclusive right to make copies, license, and otherwise exploit a literary, musical, or artistic work, whether printed, audio, video, etc.: works granted such right by law on or after January 1, 1978, are protected for the lifetime of the author or creator and for a period of 50 years after his or her death.

*****************

tl;dr: There is no parallel. To often users toss out terms or ideas they don't fully understand, such as threatening to inform the BBB; which is met by educating them that the BBB is in fact a scam.

in red. gold stealing doesn't infringe on anyone .. except the victim.  Given enough victims, the game will see a serious drop in customer activity.  If the victims can be diminished, still there is a problem of all that money that went into securing this game.  Money that was supposed to be spent in content updates.

A game companies revenue might not be immediately affected, but it will be.

Originally posted by FrodoFragins
Of course not.  But hacking peoples accounts for any reason should be a crime.

ha! agree with that

---

Originally posted by Karteli

---

Originally posted by strangepower  

---

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

---

Originally posted by strangepower  

---

Originally posted by just1opinion

---

Originally posted by Aerowyn

---

Originally posted by strangepower  

---

Originally posted by Aerowyn you are making money off of someone else's product illegally.. don't see it any differn't than people who rip movies or games and sell pirated copies and that's a felony... 

---

  With that sort of rationale you would see it fit to charge the gold buyers with a felony too for facilitation of a Black Market, like busting the john and the prostitute as well? Sounds like a well thought out idea...

---

yes same as it's illegal to buy pirated copies of video games.. usually the punishment is worse for the supplier than the buyer as with most things

---

    I understand what you're saying and I agree with you.  The same people that think gold farming and selling gold is okay are probably the people that think ripping CDs or movies and selling them is okay.  Intellectual copyright laws mean nothing to these people, but they do to me and I agree with what you've said.  

---

  How do you draw the parallel between copyright infringement and gold selling?  

---

The line is drawn when the selling of gold prevents or causes the developer of the software to lose money or prevents them obtaining the money.  That won't happen until the developer themselves start selling gold. 

---

  In the music industry, copyright is infringed when IP is stolen, not just because one's activities cause a loss of revenue. The activities that can cause revenue loss are many... but a dude stealing gold from another's account is not infringing anyone's ability to earn revenue, the game company already has it via box and/or sub. cop·y·right? [kop-ee-rahyt] 1. the exclusive right to make copies, license, and otherwise exploit a literary, musical, or artistic work, whether printed, audio, video, etc.: works granted such right by law on or after January 1, 1978, are protected for the lifetime of the author or creator and for a period of 50 years after his or her death. ***************** tl;dr: There is no parallel. To often users toss out terms or ideas they don't fully understand, such as threatening to inform the BBB; which is met by educating them that the BBB is in fact a scam.

---

in red. gold stealing doesn't infringe on anyone .. except the victim.  Given enough victims, the game will see a serious drop in customer activity.  If the victims can be diminished, still there is a problem of all that money that went into securing this game.  Money that was supposed to be spent in content updates.

A game companies revenue might not be immediately affected, but it will be.

---

Sorry dude, you know who the victims are, folks who practice bad computer hygiene and folks who seek out gold selling outfits in the first place.

They actually give them their email & click on emails from the gold sellers, the list goes on of how they compromise themselves and make the problem worse in the first place by buying gold.

Originally posted by Karteli

Originally posted by Betaguy

Originally posted by aesperus

Originally posted by Aerowyn
you are making money off of someone else's product illegally.. don't see it any differn't than people who rip movies or games and sell pirated copies and that's a felony... 

The thing is, it's not a question of 'if' gold selling is illegal. It is illegal. The issue comes down to how to prosecute it. When dealing w/ gold sellers (and especially ones that hack), you are nearly always dealing w/ an internation incident. Issues with Intellectual Property, especially digital IP, are typically handled very poorly internationally.

Different countries have different laws around these issues, and they also prioritize them much differently. Western companies tend to persue these issues much more aggressively, because a lot of our money in the west comes from our inovations. Eastern companies are typically not as aggressive about it.

Anet & Blizzard aren't even the only major companies to have to deal w/ issues like blatant EULA breaks. Companies like Google & Apple have also had their share of trouble in dealing w/ IP issues overseas as well. Gold selling has always been illegal, but it's up to the countries who are harboring these criminals to each handle them on their own. It's also a question of how much pressure MMO companies can put on these countries to prosecute & crack down on gold sellers. For some countries it's more effective, but for some of the major offenders (like China) it just doesn't work.

It is not illegal to sell currency in video games.  That is a croc...

It's not against the law, but it is against an individual companies guidelines, namely their EULA.  Game companies can go after anyone who breaks these rules.  For small time deals like an account sale, they generally don't care (not worth the time or money), but they reserve the right to serve litigation against those who habitually violate their rules, specifically, gold farmers & account hackers (stealers).

 

So it's not against the law to sell currency, but it is a break in a contractual agreement between the company and the user, which leads to someone being sued.  This is why MMO companies take gold selling sites to court and (sometimes) win (Blizzard did this many times).  Court details are generally interesting, because a gold seller is asked where they got the currency they sold.

 

I totally agree, that is why I said it is not illegal to sell in game currency as a business, only a stupid contractual agreement between the user and the game IP.  To be honest they don't ban anyone for buying in game currencies anymore that is hoax... They turn a blind eye I buy currency in every game I have ever played and will ever play.

Originally posted by Karteli

Originally posted by Betaguy

Originally posted by aesperus

Originally posted by Aerowyn
you are making money off of someone else's product illegally.. don't see it any differn't than people who rip movies or games and sell pirated copies and that's a felony... 

The thing is, it's not a question of 'if' gold selling is illegal. It is illegal. The issue comes down to how to prosecute it. When dealing w/ gold sellers (and especially ones that hack), you are nearly always dealing w/ an internation incident. Issues with Intellectual Property, especially digital IP, are typically handled very poorly internationally.

Different countries have different laws around these issues, and they also prioritize them much differently. Western companies tend to persue these issues much more aggressively, because a lot of our money in the west comes from our inovations. Eastern companies are typically not as aggressive about it.

Anet & Blizzard aren't even the only major companies to have to deal w/ issues like blatant EULA breaks. Companies like Google & Apple have also had their share of trouble in dealing w/ IP issues overseas as well. Gold selling has always been illegal, but it's up to the countries who are harboring these criminals to each handle them on their own. It's also a question of how much pressure MMO companies can put on these countries to prosecute & crack down on gold sellers. For some countries it's more effective, but for some of the major offenders (like China) it just doesn't work.

It is not illegal to sell currency in video games.  That is a croc...

It's not against the law, but it is against an individual companies guidelines, namely their EULA.  Game companies can go after anyone who breaks these rules.  For small time deals like an account sale, they generally don't care (not worth the time or money), but they reserve the right to serve litigation against those who habitually violate their rules, specifically, gold farmers & account hackers (stealers).

 

So it's not against the law to sell currency, but it is a break in a contractual agreement between the company and the user, which leads to someone being sued.  This is why MMO companies take gold selling sites to court and (sometimes) win (Blizzard did this many times).  Court details are generally interesting, because a gold seller is asked where they got the currency they sold.

 

It is against the rules of the game yes, and yes that does break EULA.

However whlie courts have upheld some EULA's in some jurisdictions

http://www.google.ca/search?q=are+eula's+legally+binding&rls=com.microsoft:en-ca:IE-Address&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&redir_esc=&ei=l75wUKDULeahiAKZzICAAQ

others other been struck down in other jurisdictions

http://herochat.com/forum/index.php?topic=243806.0

One reason is due to an inherently unfair nature of the EULA, that being that often the customer doesn't have the ability to inspect the eula before purchasing the product. 

Also breach of contract is not criminal.

http://www.criminal-law-lawyer-source.com/terms/contract.html

It's interesting that in Blizzards suit against IGE, they stated nothing about loss of income, which was probably smart, but talked specifically about the gold sellers calculated decision to reap substantial profits by knowingly interfering with and substantially impairing the intended use and enjoyment associated with consumer agreements between blizzard and subscribers to its virtual world called World of Warcraft."

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/72346-IGE-Sued-By-World-Of-Warcraft-Player

Trying to find what the results of that were.  Hmm it appears it was settled, darn it.

http://virtuallyblind.com/2008/08/27/hernandez-ige-settles/

Originally posted by EndDream
The results of this poll have really shaken my faith in humanity. We are doomed. Seriously.

why cuz doesnt go with YOUR believes?

Voted "No, but gold farmers are immoral."

I don't believe the act should be illegal according to the government.  However, I do believe the act should be punishable by the company who runs the game.

Gold sellers and buyers should be banned indefinitely.  The reason they aren't, is because the company loses money when they ban their customers...

This situation is a double-edged turd.  Someone gets shit on, no matter what you do.  If gold sellers/buyers didn't exist, then it wouldn't be a problem.

Originally posted by gigat

  If gold sellers/buyers didn't exist, then it wouldn't be a problem.

Alright. here is where it gets ugly though...

how do we make them not exist?

Time to transition from idealism to realism...

I assume we can rule out genocide. it'd work but overkill. Perhaps looking at the state apparatuses can provide a better idea? perhaps companies can be empowered by laws to impose great financial fines upon those cught in this activity? with gov't support of course?

Don't need to send a gold farmer to jail, just send him a fee of a few thousand dollars. I bet that's a lot in chinese currency...

Originally posted by Robokapp

Originally posted by gigat

  If gold sellers/buyers didn't exist, then it wouldn't be a problem.

Alright. here is where it gets ugly though...

 

how do we make them not exist?

 

Time to transition from idealism to realism...

 

I assume we can rule out genocide. it'd work but overkill. Perhaps looking at the state apparatuses can provide a better idea? perhaps companies can be empowered by laws to impose great financial fines upon those cught in this activity? with gov't support of course?

 

Don't need to send a gold farmer to jail, just send him a fee of a few thousand dollars. I bet that's a lot in chinese currency...

I don't think you can.  In any game where there is some form of progression and some form of economy you create value between objects and people.  Which means that someone will be willing to work longer/harder/smarter and then sell the results of this to soneone else.

The only way then to stop it would be to remove all ability to trade - which would suck, and then you would still have people being PL'd for money, so you then need to remove all progression, which would suck further.

No real grasp on international law, so here are some hypotethical questions that may or may not apply.

Is it illegal to set up a say a bookstand outside a bookstore, without any permits or anything?

Sure, they can remove you, but after how many removals does it become illegal?

Is it illegal to sell something on ebay and not pay the sellers fee?

Especially for games that actually sell ingame currency, is it not taking away from their profits if I sell it cheaper?

MMO's are a special kinds of beasts but for other marketplaces, whatever they might be, is there no law that protects their interests and prohibits unlicensed trading in their marketplace?

I actually have no idea so these are genuine questions.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by Karteli

Originally posted by Betaguy

Originally posted by aesperus

Originally posted by Aerowyn
you are making money off of someone else's product illegally.. don't see it any differn't than people who rip movies or games and sell pirated copies and that's a felony... 

The thing is, it's not a question of 'if' gold selling is illegal. It is illegal. The issue comes down to how to prosecute it. When dealing w/ gold sellers (and especially ones that hack), you are nearly always dealing w/ an internation incident. Issues with Intellectual Property, especially digital IP, are typically handled very poorly internationally.

Different countries have different laws around these issues, and they also prioritize them much differently. Western companies tend to persue these issues much more aggressively, because a lot of our money in the west comes from our inovations. Eastern companies are typically not as aggressive about it.

Anet & Blizzard aren't even the only major companies to have to deal w/ issues like blatant EULA breaks. Companies like Google & Apple have also had their share of trouble in dealing w/ IP issues overseas as well. Gold selling has always been illegal, but it's up to the countries who are harboring these criminals to each handle them on their own. It's also a question of how much pressure MMO companies can put on these countries to prosecute & crack down on gold sellers. For some countries it's more effective, but for some of the major offenders (like China) it just doesn't work.

It is not illegal to sell currency in video games.  That is a croc...

It's not against the law, but it is against an individual companies guidelines, namely their EULA.  Game companies can go after anyone who breaks these rules.  For small time deals like an account sale, they generally don't care (not worth the time or money), but they reserve the right to serve litigation against those who habitually violate their rules, specifically, gold farmers & account hackers (stealers).

 

So it's not against the law to sell currency, but it is a break in a contractual agreement between the company and the user, which leads to someone being sued.  This is why MMO companies take gold selling sites to court and (sometimes) win (Blizzard did this many times).  Court details are generally interesting, because a gold seller is asked where they got the currency they sold.

 

It is against the rules of the game yes, and yes that does break EULA.

However whlie courts have upheld some EULA's in some jurisdictions

http://www.google.ca/search?q=are+eula's+legally+binding&rls=com.microsoft:en-ca:IE-Address&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&redir_esc=&ei=l75wUKDULeahiAKZzICAAQ

others other been struck down in other jurisdictions

http://herochat.com/forum/index.php?topic=243806.0

One reason is due to an inherently unfair nature of the EULA, that being that often the customer doesn't have the ability to inspect the eula before purchasing the product. 

Also breach of contract is not criminal.

http://www.criminal-law-lawyer-source.com/terms/contract.html

It's interesting that in Blizzards suit against IGE, they stated nothing about loss of income, which was probably smart, but talked specifically about the gold sellers calculated decision to reap substantial profits by knowingly interfering with and substantially impairing the intended use and enjoyment associated with consumer agreements between blizzard and subscribers to its virtual world called World of Warcraft."

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/72346-IGE-Sued-By-World-Of-Warcraft-Player

Trying to find what the results of that were.  Hmm it appears it was settled, darn it.

http://virtuallyblind.com/2008/08/27/hernandez-ige-settles/

Your first link is a google search :-)

Your second link is interesting.  There is no mention of MMO's though, specifically P2P MMO's. A company supporting an MMO can still restrict (ie ban) an account at their will?  I know Blizzard bans accounts suspected of account sales.  At least from what we know ... yet somehow accounts do get sold and the subscriber information drastically changes.  Maybe they pick and choose who to show off as an example, dunno.

The third link doesn't relate to MMO's.  It relates to contracts, which have more meaning when physically signed.  Argueably, software has a spam of text which people just click "Accept" and either there is no devotion to the actual concept by the singer or there is no proof that the person who clicked "Accept" is the actual person paying the bills to a game company (and playing the game).  This is disputed often (thanks internet anonymity).

4th and 5th links, direct effect of gold selling.  Getting sued.

Sorry if I was antagonistic, just stating how I saw things :-)  Thanks for your post!

Originally posted by FrodoFragins
Of course not.  But hacking peoples accounts for any reason should be a crime.

It is already in most western countries for a preety long time. 

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by fenistil

Will this mean that selling gold / items / lockboxes by game developers will also be forbidden?

 

why would it be? it's their product they made it they can sell it how they want.. 

I was just asking, not tring to get into a discussion about who has right to trade anything in a video game.

In example I think any form of chance based things (like lockboxes or  anything similar like 100% succes rate tokens for crafting,etc) should be forbidden. 

Using bots for any reason, hacks and exploits(bugs) to gather gold / items and profiting on it also.

Additionally any item you buy on cash shop should be tradeable and sellable also for real money.  You bought sparkle pony for 25$? You should be able to transfer it to any other player without any cost at any time.  After 1 day or using or after two years, without limits - so person who bought sparkel pony from you should be able to transfer / sell it to aniohter player as well.

Other things, like gathering gold yourself without using bots / hacks / exploits and selling it in a game that have cash shop? Would be bit hypocrytical and would just be using goverment machine and everyone tax money to increase companies profits.

It would make more sense for me, when there would be no direct link between those.  In example : game is purelt B2P without cash shop, lifetime sub or sub only based without microtransactions.  Then I would agree.

*putting on fireproof and covering with fireshield blanket*

NOTE:  Above is NOT a product of me analyzing current law, analyzing how far game companies can manage and control their property, what is totally right and what is not,etc

It is totally biased, subjective and I meant it that way.

Maybe I should take on hero suit and defend corporations from bad farmers and support using countries police and courts to incease game companies revenue.  Maybe I should.  I don't feel like it though.

I really don't see why Jon or anyone should be punished for selling gold he farmed himself - basically selling his own time, when companies can create endless amounts of gold / items and sell automatically. Even though I personally I am against that pracices, just not sure in current monetization schemes it should be something that is regulated by law. 

Giving comapnies more right to quickly perma ban accounts and not being afraid of law suits - that I could agree to.

Most other things like hacking accounts for gold, using stolen credic cards, etc is alrady a crime.