Answer to the OP > No,

My belief is even if MMO's were to die, it would not fill the void that most people are looking to fill with something like the old MMO's (UO, EQ, SWG, Vanilla WOW).

In fact, UO is still running, how come the masses aren't playing it? Their lies the answer, Nobody wants to GO BACK!

What needs to happen is MORE crappy MMO's need to come out, to the point were people become indifferent (not bored or pissed or angry, but truly indifferent) about the MMO scene all together and then and only then will we see the true "next gen" MMO's.

Just like downloading music use to be, a small group of people with computers started sharing music, more people got into it, then even more, then Napster came, the masses started downloading and then laws started coming out and we went through the period were everyone was trying to find an alternative to Napster, all these pear to pear came out and then.... itunes came.

We are now in the period were everyone is trying to find an alternative.

itunes is what we need for MMO's. We need something new, something revolutionary and not something old and rehashed that everyone has fond memories of but is not willing to go back to or stick with.

I have a strong belief that the "next gen" MMO's are not here yet, they are coming. I have faith!!!

Originally posted by rush1984

Before you jump the gun , im not saying they need to die completely

what i beleive is that in order for mmorpgs to get back to the original state,for example UO , vannila wow etc

i beleive the genre needs to die, it needs to die so badly that all those those players that aint really Fans get bored and leave

it needs to die to the extent that only the true fans are left so that once again  the games become games made for fans by fans of the genre.

your probaly thinking whats a true fan? maybe im using the wrong choice of words so ill try to explain, back when mmorpgs were only played by us geeks (sorry to be blunt) the communitys was 10x better heck even 100x but with the success with wow it ultimately brought alot of players to the genre that woulnt have had  given it a second glance previously. This imo is what destroyed the community its like a bunch of party crashers that refuse to leave and then make demands on the host to change the music..."think forums and whines for nerfs .. and "this is too hard" or "i dont have enough time in teh day to do this its not fair i want my free epics"

I just feel these games aint made for "us" anymore

So thats why i think this genre needs to die if only to be reborn and be for "us" once again

 

 

 

 You think vanilla WoW was an original?  There is a huge black hole in your knowledge sir, there was absolutely ZERO original about WoW.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by TdogSkal

 

Problem is they are not dead, far from it.  EQ1 just got another ex-pack not so long ago.

Not a problem. I really don't care if these old games are alive. I won't play them anyway.

I will give you they Modern MMOs are superior in graphics but not even close in gameplay.  

NO. Superior graphics and gameplay. Camping is not gameplay. LFD with good fast dungeon run is 100x better gameplay for me.

Today MMOS require zero thinking, that is not good game play. 

Agreed. Camping requires zero thinking. Grinding EQ mobs requier zero thinking. Very bad gameplay.

In Modern MMOs, 80% of the game is soloable and only 20% requires help of others, that is so wrong and such bad MMORPG gameplay that I wonder how you can even claim it is better today then the old days, it makes me wonder if you ever played an MMO prior to WOW.

I played UO beta, EQ for 1 year. Horribly experience. WOW is better. DCUO is better. Almost any modern MMO is better. Heck, Diablo 3 is MUCH better. Even torchlight is better.

And what is this 20%? IF you play wow, you will use LFD most of the time to level and end game.

 

 Did you even really play EQ? Seriously...because EQ was 1000X harder than modern MMO's because mobs chased you forever (Or at least until the zone if you made it). You pulled too many, you die. Paying attention to mob aggro ranges, pathign patterns, and mob densities in a given area were crucial. Must of not hated it that much to play it for a year.

The only fairly modern MMORPG to date that gives any challenge or fun is Vanguard:SoH. Although buggy still and laggy...STILL by far trumphs games like SWTOR, Rift, and yes, even your precious WoW as far as gameplay. Even the graphics are nice. Of course this is my opionion, as I am sure you will disagree...which is yours.

Today's MMO's you can pull a whole camp in many cases and live with little damage. Aggro ranges are much shorter too in a lot of cases.

BTW..Torchlight is not an MMORPG, neither is Diablo 3, so uncomparable. Only things comparable in your whole post is that for one, you like instant gratification, and two all those games you mention either intentionally play as console games, or were made to mimic them but with an MMORPG title strapped on them.

I don't look at it with rose-tinted glasses, as so many  turn to as your rebuttal when they can't come up with good reasons. I tried going back to EQ...but it is just so outdated  now I can't do it. But the community there is still outstanding.

But I couldn't stay not because it is a bad game. I mean, if it were so horrible, why is it STILL up and running  AND putting out expansions after  14 years!?!  Explain that one to me. So many have no real clue what seperated the MMORPG genre from the console genre and WHY they were different. Now everyone just wants to make them console heavy for their own selfish conveinience despite there being games that  cater to their style of gameplay everywhere already.

Out of all the TV shows I've watched over the years, a few have been great, some ok and the vast majority junk.

Out of all the movies I've seen, a few are great, some ok and the vast majority junk.

Out of all the music I've heard, a small percentage is great, some ok and the vast majority junk.

Out of all the mmo's I've played, a few have been great, some ok and the vast majority junk.

To me, saying that mmo's need to die is like wishing they'd stop making bad tv shows, movies and music.

I fit this whole issue into my 10% theory. Only 10% of anything is worth your time, the rest of it is junk. And the reason we can't stop it? My 10% doesn't necessarily overlap with anyone elses, and very few would exactly overlap me. So to someone, somewhere out there, what I call junk is in someone elses 10% 'great'.

Can we ban together and try an organized and collective effort at improving mmo's? Nope. Because thankfully, we all have our own opinions.

Originally posted by Goatgod76

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by TdogSkal

 

Problem is they are not dead, far from it.  EQ1 just got another ex-pack not so long ago.

Not a problem. I really don't care if these old games are alive. I won't play them anyway.

I will give you they Modern MMOs are superior in graphics but not even close in gameplay.  

NO. Superior graphics and gameplay. Camping is not gameplay. LFD with good fast dungeon run is 100x better gameplay for me.

Today MMOS require zero thinking, that is not good game play. 

Agreed. Camping requires zero thinking. Grinding EQ mobs requier zero thinking. Very bad gameplay.

In Modern MMOs, 80% of the game is soloable and only 20% requires help of others, that is so wrong and such bad MMORPG gameplay that I wonder how you can even claim it is better today then the old days, it makes me wonder if you ever played an MMO prior to WOW.

I played UO beta, EQ for 1 year. Horribly experience. WOW is better. DCUO is better. Almost any modern MMO is better. Heck, Diablo 3 is MUCH better. Even torchlight is better.

And what is this 20%? IF you play wow, you will use LFD most of the time to level and end game.

 

 Did you even really play EQ? Seriously...because EQ was 1000X harder than modern MMO's because mobs chased you forever (Or at least until the zone if you made it). You pulled too many, you die. payign attention to mob aggro ranges was crucial. Must of not hated it that much to play it for a year.

The only fairly modern MMORPG to date that gives any challenge or fun is Vanguard:SoH. Although buggy still and laggy...STILL by far trumphs games like SWTOR, Rift, and yes, even your precious WoW as far as gameplay. Even the graphics are nice. Of course this is my opionion, as I am sure you will disagree...which is yours.

Today's MMO's you can pull a whole camp in many cases and live with little damage. Aggro ranges are much shorter too in a lot of cases. BTW..Torchlight is not an mMORPG, neither is Diablo 3, so uncomparable. Only things comparable in your whole post is that for one, you like instant gratification, and two all those games you mention either intentionally play as console games, or were made to mimic them but with an MMORPG title strapped on them.

I don't look at it with rose-tinted glasses, as so many fo you turn to as your rebuttal when you can't come up with good reasons. I tried goign back to EQ...but it is just so outdated, and under populated now I can't do it. NOT because it is a bad game. I mean, if it were so horrible, why is it STILL up and running  AND putting otu expansions after  14 years!?! Explain that one to me. So mnay have no real clue what seperated the MMORPG genre from the console genre and WHY they were different. Now everyone just wants to make them console heavy for their own selfish conveinience despite there being games that  cater to their style of gameplay everywhere already.

1000x harder is not more fun.

I regret spending a year on EQ wasting most of my time camping, or staring at a spellbook. Now it is true that there was few alternative at the time, and that is why EQ got away with it.

D3 is the same. You overpull, you die in inferno. Heck, D3 has a hard core PD mode. EQ does not even have that. And in D3, i got to kill lots of stuff. In EQ, i got to waste lots of time waiting and doing nothing.

Doing nothing is not fun.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by TdogSkal

 

Problem is they are not dead, far from it.  EQ1 just got another ex-pack not so long ago.

Not a problem. I really don't care if these old games are alive. I won't play them anyway.

I will give you they Modern MMOs are superior in graphics but not even close in gameplay.  

NO. Superior graphics and gameplay. Camping is not gameplay. LFD with good fast dungeon run is 100x better gameplay for me.

Today MMOS require zero thinking, that is not good game play. 

Agreed. Camping requires zero thinking. Grinding EQ mobs requier zero thinking. Very bad gameplay.

In Modern MMOs, 80% of the game is soloable and only 20% requires help of others, that is so wrong and such bad MMORPG gameplay that I wonder how you can even claim it is better today then the old days, it makes me wonder if you ever played an MMO prior to WOW.

I played UO beta, EQ for 1 year. Horribly experience. WOW is better. DCUO is better. Almost any modern MMO is better. Heck, Diablo 3 is MUCH better. Even torchlight is better.

And what is this 20%? IF you play wow, you will use LFD most of the time to level and end game.

 

So you think better game play is standing around town using the LFG tool to find groups to level over going out into the world finding a group and hunting mobs?   So a lobby game style game is a better MMO then using the world to level?

Camping required a lot of thinking, finding the right place, keeping up with the spawns, not pulling to many, aggro management.  All played a huge factor in a good group, bad group or average group. 

WOW was simply, follow the waypoints on the map and you cannot fail, if you do, hurry back, nothing lost for dying.  Dungeons in WOW have to have "Hard Modes" to keep people running them or they would be too easy.   EQ1 had no need for that as dungeons were hard to begin with and only got easy once you learned them.  Crazy concept.

So its clear you are a game that wants instant gradification, no work, just reward.  You want to be using "Epic" loot but do not want to put forth the effort that should be required to EARN them.   WOW just handed them out for being there, EQ made you EARN them.

 Much like today in kids sports, everyone gets a trophy for playing today, how wrong and stupid, it does not teach kids anything.   Back in my day (Only 30 years old), yu got a trophy for winning and if you lost, you got to watch the other team with the trophy and you used that to work harder for next time, to train harder, to work harder and win next time.  

I want to EARN my rewards, not just get them for showing up.   EQ1 had the best quests ever.  EPIC weapon quest where the best thing in MMOs and they are long gone because of people like you crying about how much effort they required.   That was the point, they were EPIC (Rare) items.

EQ1, you replaced weapons and armor every few months if you were lucky, you got attached to Armor and weapons, each had a fun story of how you got it.   In games like WOW, gear means nothing, no storys behind them, they are replaced as fast as you get them. 

You people have enough of your instant gradificationg games, why can't those that want to use their brain and EARN their rewards have a game?  Why do you feel that your way is the only way?   Are you threated by players that want to EARN their own way and not get every handed to them on a silver platter?

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Goatgod76

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by TdogSkal

 

Problem is they are not dead, far from it.  EQ1 just got another ex-pack not so long ago.

Not a problem. I really don't care if these old games are alive. I won't play them anyway.

I will give you they Modern MMOs are superior in graphics but not even close in gameplay.  

NO. Superior graphics and gameplay. Camping is not gameplay. LFD with good fast dungeon run is 100x better gameplay for me.

Today MMOS require zero thinking, that is not good game play. 

Agreed. Camping requires zero thinking. Grinding EQ mobs requier zero thinking. Very bad gameplay.

In Modern MMOs, 80% of the game is soloable and only 20% requires help of others, that is so wrong and such bad MMORPG gameplay that I wonder how you can even claim it is better today then the old days, it makes me wonder if you ever played an MMO prior to WOW.

I played UO beta, EQ for 1 year. Horribly experience. WOW is better. DCUO is better. Almost any modern MMO is better. Heck, Diablo 3 is MUCH better. Even torchlight is better.

And what is this 20%? IF you play wow, you will use LFD most of the time to level and end game.

 

 Did you even really play EQ? Seriously...because EQ was 1000X harder than modern MMO's because mobs chased you forever (Or at least until the zone if you made it). You pulled too many, you die. payign attention to mob aggro ranges was crucial. Must of not hated it that much to play it for a year.

The only fairly modern MMORPG to date that gives any challenge or fun is Vanguard:SoH. Although buggy still and laggy...STILL by far trumphs games like SWTOR, Rift, and yes, even your precious WoW as far as gameplay. Even the graphics are nice. Of course this is my opionion, as I am sure you will disagree...which is yours.

Today's MMO's you can pull a whole camp in many cases and live with little damage. Aggro ranges are much shorter too in a lot of cases. BTW..Torchlight is not an mMORPG, neither is Diablo 3, so uncomparable. Only things comparable in your whole post is that for one, you like instant gratification, and two all those games you mention either intentionally play as console games, or were made to mimic them but with an MMORPG title strapped on them.

I don't look at it with rose-tinted glasses, as so many fo you turn to as your rebuttal when you can't come up with good reasons. I tried goign back to EQ...but it is just so outdated, and under populated now I can't do it. NOT because it is a bad game. I mean, if it were so horrible, why is it STILL up and running  AND putting otu expansions after  14 years!?! Explain that one to me. So mnay have no real clue what seperated the MMORPG genre from the console genre and WHY they were different. Now everyone just wants to make them console heavy for their own selfish conveinience despite there being games that  cater to their style of gameplay everywhere already.

1000x harder is not more fun.

I regret spending a year on EQ wasting most of my time camping, or staring at a spellbook. Now it is true that there was few alternative at the time, and that is why EQ got away with it.

D3 is the same. You overpull, you die in inferno. Heck, D3 has a hard core PD mode. EQ does not even have that. And in D3, i got to kill lots of stuff. In EQ, i got to waste lots of time waiting and doing nothing.

Doing nothing is not fun.

Funny...because I never wasted time when I logged in. In dungeon crawls, sure...you had to meditate...but here's the kicker....you talked to other players and got to know them and have good conversations and make friends. I don't consider that time wasted. You explore, craft...I don't consider that time wasted if your into it.  I never ran out of things to do in my time online in EQ...right up until I finally called it quits...mainly because I entered the military. I just don't see where is time wasted unless you allow it with your own in-game actions?

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Goatgod76

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by TdogSkal

 

Problem is they are not dead, far from it.  EQ1 just got another ex-pack not so long ago.

Not a problem. I really don't care if these old games are alive. I won't play them anyway.

I will give you they Modern MMOs are superior in graphics but not even close in gameplay.  

NO. Superior graphics and gameplay. Camping is not gameplay. LFD with good fast dungeon run is 100x better gameplay for me.

Today MMOS require zero thinking, that is not good game play. 

Agreed. Camping requires zero thinking. Grinding EQ mobs requier zero thinking. Very bad gameplay.

In Modern MMOs, 80% of the game is soloable and only 20% requires help of others, that is so wrong and such bad MMORPG gameplay that I wonder how you can even claim it is better today then the old days, it makes me wonder if you ever played an MMO prior to WOW.

I played UO beta, EQ for 1 year. Horribly experience. WOW is better. DCUO is better. Almost any modern MMO is better. Heck, Diablo 3 is MUCH better. Even torchlight is better.

And what is this 20%? IF you play wow, you will use LFD most of the time to level and end game.

 

 Did you even really play EQ? Seriously...because EQ was 1000X harder than modern MMO's because mobs chased you forever (Or at least until the zone if you made it). You pulled too many, you die. payign attention to mob aggro ranges was crucial. Must of not hated it that much to play it for a year.

The only fairly modern MMORPG to date that gives any challenge or fun is Vanguard:SoH. Although buggy still and laggy...STILL by far trumphs games like SWTOR, Rift, and yes, even your precious WoW as far as gameplay. Even the graphics are nice. Of course this is my opionion, as I am sure you will disagree...which is yours.

Today's MMO's you can pull a whole camp in many cases and live with little damage. Aggro ranges are much shorter too in a lot of cases. BTW..Torchlight is not an mMORPG, neither is Diablo 3, so uncomparable. Only things comparable in your whole post is that for one, you like instant gratification, and two all those games you mention either intentionally play as console games, or were made to mimic them but with an MMORPG title strapped on them.

I don't look at it with rose-tinted glasses, as so many fo you turn to as your rebuttal when you can't come up with good reasons. I tried goign back to EQ...but it is just so outdated, and under populated now I can't do it. NOT because it is a bad game. I mean, if it were so horrible, why is it STILL up and running  AND putting otu expansions after  14 years!?! Explain that one to me. So mnay have no real clue what seperated the MMORPG genre from the console genre and WHY they were different. Now everyone just wants to make them console heavy for their own selfish conveinience despite there being games that  cater to their style of gameplay everywhere already.

1000x harder is not more fun.

I regret spending a year on EQ wasting most of my time camping, or staring at a spellbook. Now it is true that there was few alternative at the time, and that is why EQ got away with it.

D3 is the same. You overpull, you die in inferno. Heck, D3 has a hard core PD mode. EQ does not even have that. And in D3, i got to kill lots of stuff. In EQ, i got to waste lots of time waiting and doing nothing.

Doing nothing is not fun.

D3 is not even comparable to EQ1, not even the same genre but hey keep missing the point and using pointless examples.

D3 is not even as good as D2.  Anyone that spend time playing D2 will agree with me.  D3 is a garbage game and they keep making it easier and easier in every patch because people like you cry about how hard inferno and hell modes were. 

Why did you waste time do nothing in EQ?  When I wanted to go kill something I did, when I wanted to craft I did.  No different then any game in that reguard.  

D3 is an action game, EQ1 is an MMORPG.  Way different type of games.   D3 is worst then D2. compare apples to apples.  Torchlight is way better then D3.

Harder does equal more fun.  Harder means more effort required to Win and is more fun when you do win.   Winning without trying is no fun.  Winning every time is not fun.   Failure makes winning better and always has.

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Goatgod76

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by TdogSkal

 

Problem is they are not dead, far from it.  EQ1 just got another ex-pack not so long ago.

Not a problem. I really don't care if these old games are alive. I won't play them anyway.

I will give you they Modern MMOs are superior in graphics but not even close in gameplay.  

NO. Superior graphics and gameplay. Camping is not gameplay. LFD with good fast dungeon run is 100x better gameplay for me.

Today MMOS require zero thinking, that is not good game play. 

Agreed. Camping requires zero thinking. Grinding EQ mobs requier zero thinking. Very bad gameplay.

In Modern MMOs, 80% of the game is soloable and only 20% requires help of others, that is so wrong and such bad MMORPG gameplay that I wonder how you can even claim it is better today then the old days, it makes me wonder if you ever played an MMO prior to WOW.

I played UO beta, EQ for 1 year. Horribly experience. WOW is better. DCUO is better. Almost any modern MMO is better. Heck, Diablo 3 is MUCH better. Even torchlight is better.

And what is this 20%? IF you play wow, you will use LFD most of the time to level and end game.

 

 Did you even really play EQ? Seriously...because EQ was 1000X harder than modern MMO's because mobs chased you forever (Or at least until the zone if you made it). You pulled too many, you die. payign attention to mob aggro ranges was crucial. Must of not hated it that much to play it for a year.

The only fairly modern MMORPG to date that gives any challenge or fun is Vanguard:SoH. Although buggy still and laggy...STILL by far trumphs games like SWTOR, Rift, and yes, even your precious WoW as far as gameplay. Even the graphics are nice. Of course this is my opionion, as I am sure you will disagree...which is yours.

Today's MMO's you can pull a whole camp in many cases and live with little damage. Aggro ranges are much shorter too in a lot of cases. BTW..Torchlight is not an mMORPG, neither is Diablo 3, so uncomparable. Only things comparable in your whole post is that for one, you like instant gratification, and two all those games you mention either intentionally play as console games, or were made to mimic them but with an MMORPG title strapped on them.

I don't look at it with rose-tinted glasses, as so many fo you turn to as your rebuttal when you can't come up with good reasons. I tried goign back to EQ...but it is just so outdated, and under populated now I can't do it. NOT because it is a bad game. I mean, if it were so horrible, why is it STILL up and running  AND putting otu expansions after  14 years!?! Explain that one to me. So mnay have no real clue what seperated the MMORPG genre from the console genre and WHY they were different. Now everyone just wants to make them console heavy for their own selfish conveinience despite there being games that  cater to their style of gameplay everywhere already.

1000x harder is not more fun.

I regret spending a year on EQ wasting most of my time camping, or staring at a spellbook. Now it is true that there was few alternative at the time, and that is why EQ got away with it.

D3 is the same. You overpull, you die in inferno. Heck, D3 has a hard core PD mode. EQ does not even have that. And in D3, i got to kill lots of stuff. In EQ, i got to waste lots of time waiting and doing nothing.

Doing nothing is not fun.

Harder does equal more fun.  Harder means more effort required to Win and is more fun when you do win.   Winning without trying is no fun.  Winning every time is not fun.   Failure makes winning better and always has.

Then why do you like games like WoW? SWTOR? They are "I win" button games.

Old school gamer here from days of UO.

I like modern MMOS. Change is way of life and i am not a teenager anymore. So new casual style stuits me perfectly. 

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by ste2000

We just need more AAA Sandboxes...............there's never been one

I think now it's the time.

SWG was a AAA sandbox title, and it was fantastic. 

 

 

Originally posted by grimgryphon

Originally posted by nariusseldon

It is a good thing "hard to get the same feeling of EQ" .. it was boring, lots of camping & frustration. I am glad those days are over.

^^^ This

I played UO from day one and if you asked me to go back and play the "vanilla" game again, I'd tell you to drop dead. Same for EQ1.

Too many self-professed MMO vets still wearing those rose-colored glasses. Those games were not as great as we remember them. Really, they were not. The modern MMO is far superior, not only in graphics, but in gameplay.

Let the dead stay dead.

Except they're not dead, they have people still paying subs and they're still getting expansions, something a lot of modern Wow clones can't claim. Some of us like using our brains, working with other people in a social world, and being challenged by hard games, rather than plunking down and following the sparkling glowing arrow and watching numbers go up while we play by ourselves. 

You're kidding, right? Brains?

I played UO from release and my sub it still active to this day, fifteen years later. I play occasionally when the nostaligia bug hits me. However, I'm not going to hype older games because of some dissatisfaction with modern MMOs. You didn't need to use your brain to play games like UO and EQ. Not in their current state and certainly not back then. Unless you consider the act of plopping your ass into a chair for the majority of your life just to mash the same keystrokes over and over as using your brain. It dosn't matter if its 1-2-3 or "I wish to lock this down", it's still repetitive, mindless drivel.

I've noticed a trend in people on these forums to equate 'hard' with 'time-consuming'. UO/EQ were not hard. They did however, suck your life away.

No thank you, never again.

Originally posted by Goatgod76

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Goatgod76

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by TdogSkal

 

Problem is they are not dead, far from it.  EQ1 just got another ex-pack not so long ago.

Not a problem. I really don't care if these old games are alive. I won't play them anyway.

I will give you they Modern MMOs are superior in graphics but not even close in gameplay.  

NO. Superior graphics and gameplay. Camping is not gameplay. LFD with good fast dungeon run is 100x better gameplay for me.

Today MMOS require zero thinking, that is not good game play. 

Agreed. Camping requires zero thinking. Grinding EQ mobs requier zero thinking. Very bad gameplay.

In Modern MMOs, 80% of the game is soloable and only 20% requires help of others, that is so wrong and such bad MMORPG gameplay that I wonder how you can even claim it is better today then the old days, it makes me wonder if you ever played an MMO prior to WOW.

I played UO beta, EQ for 1 year. Horribly experience. WOW is better. DCUO is better. Almost any modern MMO is better. Heck, Diablo 3 is MUCH better. Even torchlight is better.

And what is this 20%? IF you play wow, you will use LFD most of the time to level and end game.

 

 Did you even really play EQ? Seriously...because EQ was 1000X harder than modern MMO's because mobs chased you forever (Or at least until the zone if you made it). You pulled too many, you die. payign attention to mob aggro ranges was crucial. Must of not hated it that much to play it for a year.

The only fairly modern MMORPG to date that gives any challenge or fun is Vanguard:SoH. Although buggy still and laggy...STILL by far trumphs games like SWTOR, Rift, and yes, even your precious WoW as far as gameplay. Even the graphics are nice. Of course this is my opionion, as I am sure you will disagree...which is yours.

Today's MMO's you can pull a whole camp in many cases and live with little damage. Aggro ranges are much shorter too in a lot of cases. BTW..Torchlight is not an mMORPG, neither is Diablo 3, so uncomparable. Only things comparable in your whole post is that for one, you like instant gratification, and two all those games you mention either intentionally play as console games, or were made to mimic them but with an MMORPG title strapped on them.

I don't look at it with rose-tinted glasses, as so many fo you turn to as your rebuttal when you can't come up with good reasons. I tried goign back to EQ...but it is just so outdated, and under populated now I can't do it. NOT because it is a bad game. I mean, if it were so horrible, why is it STILL up and running  AND putting otu expansions after  14 years!?! Explain that one to me. So mnay have no real clue what seperated the MMORPG genre from the console genre and WHY they were different. Now everyone just wants to make them console heavy for their own selfish conveinience despite there being games that  cater to their style of gameplay everywhere already.

1000x harder is not more fun.

I regret spending a year on EQ wasting most of my time camping, or staring at a spellbook. Now it is true that there was few alternative at the time, and that is why EQ got away with it.

D3 is the same. You overpull, you die in inferno. Heck, D3 has a hard core PD mode. EQ does not even have that. And in D3, i got to kill lots of stuff. In EQ, i got to waste lots of time waiting and doing nothing.

Doing nothing is not fun.

Harder does equal more fun.  Harder means more effort required to Win and is more fun when you do win.   Winning without trying is no fun.  Winning every time is not fun.   Failure makes winning better and always has.

Then why do you like games like WoW? SWTOR? They are "I win" button games.

I do not, I played WoW for awhile but never touched SWTOR.  I am playing EQ1 and GW2 currently.  GW2 has amazing dungeons.

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Then why do you like games like WoW? SWTOR? They are "I win" button games.

I do not, I played WoW for awhile but never touched SWTOR.  I am playing EQ1 and GW2 currently.  GW2 has amazing dungeons.

Really? "I win" button? Did you finish all the WOW hard mode raids? Those are so hard that Blizz has to nerf them constantly.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Then why do you like games like WoW? SWTOR? They are "I win" button games.

I do not, I played WoW for awhile but never touched SWTOR.  I am playing EQ1 and GW2 currently.  GW2 has amazing dungeons.

Really? "I win" button? Did you finish all the WOW hard mode raids? Those are so hard that Blizz has to nerf them constantly.

 

And yet they're still easier than just about any raid in EverQuest or DAoC.

WoW raid strategy = hurl yourself at the encounter over and over and over until you discover its timing gimmick. No penalty for failure so who cares.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by ste2000

Originally posted by grimgryphon

Originally posted by nariusseldon

It is a good thing "hard to get the same feeling of EQ" .. it was boring, lots of camping & frustration. I am glad those days are over.

^^^ This

I played UO from day one and if you asked me to go back and play the "vanilla" game again, I'd tell you to drop dead. Same for EQ1.

Too many self-professed MMO vets still wearing those rose-colored glasses. Those games were not as great as we remember them. Really, they were not. The modern MMO is far superior, not only in graphics, but in gameplay.

Let the dead stay dead.

That's very naive to say that.

Those games are 10 y/o with a 10y/o technology and concept.

Of course no one would play EQ1 or UO today as they are.............

What the MMO industry has to do is to update those concepts to 2012 standards with better graphics, better UI, better gameplay (less grind)

And yes those 2 games have each a distinctive selling point which current MMOs do not have, therefore they could be NEW material  for the WoW generation

Nope. Those 2 games are old ideas in term of gameplay. Camping in EQ is horribly. Waiting is horribly. Grinding is horrible. Good thing not all pre WoW MMOs had camping issues, right? Because they didn't. You WoW kiddies need to learn that EQ wasn't the only MMO before 2004. Combat has very little complex mechanics compared to today's games (like procs, CDs, rotation, synergies with different mechancis ...). All those existed in DAoC, and I'm willing to bet if they existed in DAoC, they existed in EQ. You never played it so I don't know why you bother posting.

I wouldn't play it even if the graphics is updated. There are much better games. Currently? Not really.

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Then why do you like games like WoW? SWTOR? They are "I win" button games.

I do not, I played WoW for awhile but never touched SWTOR.  I am playing EQ1 and GW2 currently.  GW2 has amazing dungeons.

Really? "I win" button? Did you finish all the WOW hard mode raids? Those are so hard that Blizz has to nerf them constantly.

 

And yet they're still easier than just about any raid in EverQuest or DAoC.

WoW raid strategy = hurl yourself at the encounter over and over and over until you discover its timing gimmick. No penalty for failure so who cares.

And only 2% of players were ever successful in Sunwell. So apparently it does not work for 98% of the players ... too difficult.

And so what they are easier than EQ and DAoC which make the games too difficult? The right difficulty is fun. Too difficult (or too time consuming) is not. Too easy is not.

In fact, best system is D3 1.05 with difficulty levels you can tune. Having a raid that only 0.01% of the player can do is just waste of resources.

Originally posted by DavisFlight

I wouldn't play it even if the graphics is updated. There are much better games. Currently? Not really.

 

Wow, Diabo3, Borderland 2, DCUO, DDO, STO ... all better games. Won't touch EQ with a ten foot pole. If you like to take a number and waste 90% of your time waiting for spawns, be my guest and don't count me in.

Wow.  When I read it, it  was a pretty mind blowing, and courageous, question; Do MMORPGs need to die.  Jinkies.

I didn't really appreciate to whole "Oh let true fans be left and they get good games" yabbyabba.  I assume you, as anyone, have a dislike for people on MMORPGs who have extremely poor attitudes and so forth.  No surprise, we've all seen it.  Zergs, yawn.

It would be pretty impressive to see it die, in the way that seeing a massive building getting demolished.  Whether that's good or bad for the genre itself is very much open to interpretation, I figure.

MMORPG phoenix... The idea is very nifty.

Originally posted by DavisFlight

 

Stopped reading there...that joke is old. There seems to be a misconception here. Old MMOs do NOT = bigger time sink.

 

Now see?  By stopping there, you missed most of my comment - the part where I said that older gamers are working 40+ hours and need more flexibility in order to have family time, to step away without getting other people killed if you just noticed your kid is shaving the cat or some other semi-emergency.  You missed the part where I said there's no reason that there can't be room for all of us, AND the part where I suggested to the OP that he start a kickstartr campaign to fund the kind of game he's looking for.

My kinship is full of over-30's (age, not levels).  Some find time to do proper Raids, and enjoy the hell out of them.  Others fellow with kin members who understand that home/family has to come first even if it means the fellowship has to take a break from time to time.  Still others mostly solo, and lend a hand when needed.  We ALL enjoy the hell out of the community we've formed.  We've adapted as our game of choice has changed, and yes, 5 years later we're still playing.   I just wonder why the OP doesn't understand that a for-profit company would not want to alienate the majority of its paying subscribers just because a small group of players miss the "good old days".