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News & Features Discussion  » [Editorial] General: How Free-to-Play is Killing Gaming – Part One

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130 posts found
  ChnkyBoy

Novice Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 3

10/08/12 2:55:09 PM#121
Originally posted by evolver1972
Originally posted by Hurvart
Originally posted by evolver1972
Originally posted by Xstatic912
Regarding mmo in general, why the hell does every new sub mmo being release think they are worth $15 a month.. Why not other lower price point..

Because that's what the deluded will pay for them.

 

No game is worth a sub fee.  The only reason sub fees are still around is because some people are still willing to pay them, even though it has been repeatedly shown they are not necessary.

In some F2P games with a CS you can pay $200 a month  if you feel that you must use every boost and "time saving" item all the time when playing.

How can people be gullible enough to play a fraud and P2W-fest like that? Because it is much more expensive than any P2P game could ever be. If you want to experience the whole game, fastest progress, to be as powerful as possible all the time it is very very expensive to play.

Games like that should not be legal, IMO. In parts of the world politicians would probably ban that business model if they really learned how it works. Because it is not moral. It is greed. It will kill real gaming if not stopped.

I agree that games set up that way are crap.  So I wouldn't ever play them.  Just like I'd never play a game with a sub.

 

The difference, though, is with the F2P game, you are not forced to spend the money to play.  You can still play without it.  You don't have that choice in a sub game.  You must pay to play, period.

 

As for saying the Pay2Win thing is immoral, I don't agree with that assessment.  You are not forced to spend the money and to me, it's no more greedy than charging a sub when the sub is not necessary to cover costs.  F2P, or better yet, B2P games prove that a sub is not necessary for a well made game.

The problem is people's unrealistic expectations of what a F2P game is.  "Free" is just a buzz-word; it doesn't end up changing the "true" price to play online.  GW was the first AAA F2P title that I played, and it seemed like a great deal at first, and it was.  The problem was the expansions.  If you didn't have the latest expansion, you weren't competitive in PvP - and PvP was the only reason GW appealed to me.  So in essence my subscription was repackaged in a box; which is alright, but I still feel like I was jipped when they told me it was going to be "free".  Sure, you didn't HAVE to buy it, but you wouldn't be competitive in PvP.  Why would I play a PvP-centric game if I wouldn't be competitive?  Essentially, it's become a solo RPG for me, with a chatroom.  This strategy fragments the community into casual (see: new to MMO) gamers that are there for the social aspect and competitive (see: experienced) gamers that, well, want to play the game to it's fullest potential.  The same holds true in any game with a Cash Shop that effects character level/stats in any way.

 

The reasons I prefer P2P are simple: I can expect new content INCLUDED in my fee, and the game will be more likely to involve SKILL and/or TIME to win, not cash, since the content offered will be the same for everyone involved (GASP!).  I also like when new content is more applicable to the current state of the game, i.e. seasonal events, dynamic plots, "limited edition" quests.  If you aren't interested in the current goings-on, then get off my lawn... err... game!  Also, simply by being P2P, most people playing will have more invested in the game.  Everyone online is more dedicated.  I don't care if they don't have 1 million subscriptions; if I've got say, 20 gamers to play with consistently, I'll be very satisfied.  In short, Asheron's Call circa 1999, before the marketplace and housing.  There just better be enough content that I don't reach that damned "endgame" - when did the destination become more important than the journey?!

 

F2P is here to stay, and it does have it's market, but I'm just not down with social "gaming" and e-peens.  But there will always be a desire for a well thought out, hardcore P2P experience that can last for years on end, with a consentual agreement between developer and player where fees and expectations are layed out logically up-front - it feels much more professional and less gimmicky.  I just hope that desire is widespread enough to keep a new AAA title like that alive.

 
  Po_gg

Elite Member

Joined: 5/12/10
Posts: 2219

10/08/12 4:30:46 PM#122
Originally posted by Cymdai
Originally posted by Po_gg

But not that's what I wanted to comment, sorry Derek but I laughed at the piracy part so much :)

So "Digital piracy had migrated from just music to movies and then to video games." is a  really funny statement...

Well, I can only go off of what I've experienced and witnessed first-hand in relation to this. 

Unfortunately, this is a specific instance of age bearing down on my insight. To my credit, I did specifically say I wasn't sure when it started, but I PERSONALLY started to take notice of it with the peer-to-peer sharing programs, like Kazaa and Napster and such.

I apologise if I sounded offensive, it wasn't intended.

And I agree, with the heavier weight of online gaming, piracy shifted the focus on these games. I remember when I first saw infos of a goldfarming 'factory', I thought it's fake... of course now even those are obsolete. But at least AoC mocked them with the Little farmer and his goldselling master :) funniest npc's ever.

  RagnarokWar

Novice Member

Joined: 2/29/08
Posts: 35

10/08/12 5:39:40 PM#123

You know what killed gaming for me? Nickel and Diming. The DLC was the nickel and diming that this article seems to lavish and praise. Expansion Packs were hefty in their builds, they had new characters, classes, entire maps. DLC has made it so it's tiny, about half the price of an Expansion pack, so they're putting in MUCH less work for more reward. No company is going to tell you that's a bad deal... for them.

 

To blame F2P is wrong though. Several games that went F2P stayed alive because of it. The problem is people that stole the models that made it successful and twisted them into something evil. Let's take DDO, the one that set the standard. You get cash shop money from doing quests which you can buy quests and other commodities with. That's awesome. That encourages you to fill in your gap with actual money.

 

Now look at Age of Conan. Several cut off classes that you HAVE to subscribe to get, the end game and PvP are almost COMPLETELY locked off, and their model made Everquest 2 pick up an even crappier one by adding onto all of that locking higher level skills and gear behind subs. It's all about the model itself. Is it pay to win, or does it add convenience? Convenience is unlocking that new, shiny shotgun right now instead of playing 20 rounds for it. It it grindy? Is that 20 rounds actually 80 rounds? Then again, it's probably a terrible game (I'm looking at you AVA).

 

All in all, don't blame the good companies and F2P itself. Blame the companies that make terrible decisions and ruin it by screwing with the system in a horrible way. F2P is great when it works, but unfortunately, these companies are looking for every way under the sun to screw their customers over and make them pay out the mouth.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 6115

10/08/12 6:44:08 PM#124
Originally posted by ChnkyBoy
Originally posted by evolver1972

I agree that games set up that way are crap.  So I wouldn't ever play them.  Just like I'd never play a game with a sub.

The difference, though, is with the F2P game, you are not forced to spend the money to play.  You can still play without it.  You don't have that choice in a sub game.  You must pay to play, period.

As for saying the Pay2Win thing is immoral, I don't agree with that assessment.  You are not forced to spend the money and to me, it's no more greedy than charging a sub when the sub is not necessary to cover costs.  F2P, or better yet, B2P games prove that a sub is not necessary for a well made game.

The problem is people's unrealistic expectations of what a F2P game is.  "Free" is just a buzz-word; it doesn't end up changing the "true" price to play online.  GW was the first AAA F2P title that I played, and it seemed like a great deal at first, and it was.  The problem was the expansions.  If you didn't have the latest expansion, you weren't competitive in PvP - and PvP was the only reason GW appealed to me.  So in essence my subscription was repackaged in a box; which is alright, but I still feel like I was jipped when they told me it was going to be "free".  Sure, you didn't HAVE to buy it, but you wouldn't be competitive in PvP.  Why would I play a PvP-centric game if I wouldn't be competitive?  Essentially, it's become a solo RPG for me, with a chatroom.  This strategy fragments the community into casual (see: new to MMO) gamers that are there for the social aspect and competitive (see: experienced) gamers that, well, want to play the game to it's fullest potential.  The same holds true in any game with a Cash Shop that effects character level/stats in any way.

The reasons I prefer P2P are simple: I can expect new content INCLUDED in my fee, and the game will be more likely to involve SKILL and/or TIME to win, not cash, since the content offered will be the same for everyone involved (GASP!).  I also like when new content is more applicable to the current state of the game, i.e. seasonal events, dynamic plots, "limited edition" quests.  If you aren't interested in the current goings-on, then get off my lawn... err... game!  Also, simply by being P2P, most people playing will have more invested in the game.  Everyone online is more dedicated.  I don't care if they don't have 1 million subscriptions; if I've got say, 20 gamers to play with consistently, I'll be very satisfied.  In short, Asheron's Call circa 1999, before the marketplace and housing.  There just better be enough content that I don't reach that damned "endgame" - when did the destination become more important than the journey?!

F2P is here to stay, and it does have it's market, but I'm just not down with social "gaming" and e-peens.  But there will always be a desire for a well thought out, hardcore P2P experience that can last for years on end, with a consentual agreement between developer and player where fees and expectations are layed out logically up-front - it feels much more professional and less gimmicky.  I just hope that desire is widespread enough to keep a new AAA title like that alive.

F2P isn't entirely a buzzword, although it's heavily used in marketing.  Originally F2P was meant to describe the difference between games with a sub and those without using a cash shop/microtransactions for revenue generation.   Everyone knows the games aren't free.  I really wish we could all just drop that from the discussion.  It's like we have to start with a language course everytime we have this discussion.

P2P or subscription as a service has some buzz behind it just like F2P.  The thing is new content isn't entirely included with your subscription.  EVE is probably the closest game to providing that and even they supplement their revenue model with game cash sales.  Still I really respect that they provide their content updates for the cost of the subscription.  Everyone else however does not.  So essentially you're paying a subscription plus microtransactions.

The payment model has nothing to do with e-peens and I'm not sure what you mean by social gaming.  Every MMO I've ever played has social aspects and the potential for epeen.  The last stuff you posted is all fairy tale.  There is no utopic contract.  There are no mutually acknowledged expectations.  P2P is fully gimmick laden and marketing speak driven as I pointed out you're not only paying a recurring fee but micro-transactions as well.

Curse you AquaScum!

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4847

10/08/12 6:58:44 PM#125

Hopefully part 2 will wrap up this article in a way that make sense, 'cause so far part 1 left me thinking 'wft?!'.

First off, the main point of the article is 'DLC is ruining online gaming', and then implying that it's the same as F2P. It's not. He also seems to be grossly oversimplifying the issue by lumping problems with EA (milking games through DLC) and issues with the MMO industry. Again, these are two completely different things. Yes, the Sims & WoW are both online games, but they have completely different problems and are handled very differently.

Abusing DLCs having a negative affect on games, absolutely. Which is why many game studios have been trying to avoid such practices. EA is (and has been for quite some time) the primary culprit of abusing DLC to milk consumers of as much money as possible. I wouldn't lump the rest of the industry in with EA's shady business practices, cause it's much more complicated than that.

Who is this guy?

  Tpdr

Novice Member

Joined: 10/06/12
Posts: 1

10/09/12 12:22:08 AM#126
Originally posted by Dihoru

Monetization of a game is hard but it is the dev's choice and people can and will vote with their wallets.

 

That being said the title is a bit misleading... it should be How Free to Play is killing the people who pay for our biased reviews! Go QQ in the corner and learn to love change or buy yourself a SNES or comperable PC rig and live in your "golden age" forever.

[mod edit]

When we play, we want three things: Content, Community, and Competition. We want quests, dynamic events, loot, side missions, updated mission archs, loot, robust and fair PvP, epics, in depth crafting, an economy that makes sense, and more loot! This is content, which is being killed by the lack of attention it gets by the developers these days. The F2P model, by nature, doesn't support these things. A simple example would be the dumbed down WoW quest system, which is finding its way into too many games. Trying to cater to as large a customer base as  a F2P game brings forces the devs to dumb these things down.

Secondly: We want to be emersed in a world with players of similar mind and detication to us.  We want the need to group, dungeon dig, and raid to be native to the game. We want the human aspect of the game to remain in tact as much as possible so that it FEELS, like we're playing with other people, not just some npc's with too much to say. I blame the lack of attention to these details, again, on F2P models. It is simply imposible to create a one-size-fit-all game! It is even more impracticle to think that the small dev teams can cater to such a group. We know you need the money devs, and we wan't you to have it so you can keep bringing us the worlds we love, but F2P is not the way to do it. Instead, focus on keeping your players. Hows this for an idea: focus on keeping the players you have. Make your games so immursive, and tailored that you never lose any players. THEN work on expanding your clientele little by little, making ajustments as you go to cater to everyone. 

Finally: We want to be the most bad-ass player on the server! The first mmo I played was Everquest, and I'll never forget the envy I had when I saw the higher level toons with their glowing swords and mounts. When I hit a high level I want everyone around me to be just as green. That type of envy doesn't come from knowing I payed for my armor, it comes from knowing that I worked my ass off to get that gear and that anyone who wants it can have it only so long as they've worked as hard as I have!

The F2P model is simply a step in the wrong direction. It focuses on creating large customer bases and atemping to apease them all with one-size-fit-all content. I watched my latest addiction, city of heroes, wrap the F2P noose around thier necks just before they went out. It changes the culture of the game, and makes the needs of the core audience secondary. It was the nail in the coffin to CoH just because of that. And if (or when) your favorite world becomes reliant on the detication of the few, relative to the F2P masses that is, then you will see first hand how F2P kills. 

< / soapbox >

 

  mysticaluna

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/11/11
Posts: 257

10/09/12 8:17:55 AM#127

Thing is though you could have all that in a subscription game with expansions that charges you, there is every reason for a community to be loyal, dedicated, and far more friendlier on a game that charges you a subscription and bans trolls/gankers/spammers/bots/hackers/etc.... 

Free to play should always remain after all, it is better than seeing our beloved game being cancelled ala Star Wars Galaxies alas, just because it was no longer making enough money... 

Then SWTOR comes out and its a linear wowish style clone, only less fun and shallow compared to complicated far more time consuming WoW... The lack of depth there, when SWG was an awesome game and was capable of being so much more... 

I Love Free to Play saving games, people with money should always be welcome to donate more of their money, while allowing those who are poor to enjoy the game, that creates more groupmates and guildmates for people with money, who don't want to play a deserted game. 

There is no reason for any subscription game why their perk can't just be a good loyal community with good moderators and GM's that actually provide World Events, and are seen around the world in game (not hidden on anonymous - hire people to do that so that others can be seen by us customers).  No more of this volunteer guides with no power to do anything, who basically can only start boring simplistic quests or hand out milk and cookies, lol. 

Oh yeah, and volunteer guides? They usually are forced into doing insane amounts of work and meetings, yet all we customers see is some shallow boring overly repeated little guide quest that isn't very fun whatsoever... Go figure... Why are they doing so much work, when they should just be out there in the world having fun running events with us? After all, they aren't getting paid,  so shouldn't it just be the GMs doing all the meetings and work? 

Whatever happened to actual fun GM Events (paid for by your sub) and more content updates??

  mysticaluna

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/11/11
Posts: 257

10/09/12 8:21:19 AM#128

Not to mention, they should have high quality customer service because they are a subscription based game... Everything should be in depth, complicated, and far higher quality than free to play... (Freemiums excluded)

Sad though, we are still waiting for that special game with that magic charm that returns us back to some form of PVE Challenge, because pvp is just a boring grindfest !! As is PVE raiding!! Since when did grind become content? 

  jcdenton2k

Novice Member

Joined: 10/21/11
Posts: 5

10/18/12 1:30:48 AM#129

Others have more eloquenly stated what I've wanted to, for the most part.

-Piracy didn't 'begin' with Kazaa, nor was that the primary catalyst for modern digital piracy of video games.  Your assumptions make you look foolish due to a lack of insight or research into the 'piracy scene'.  Piracy has been around since computer games were first created for a profit.  I remember Doom on the PC being copied and spread throughout most of the HS computers in the computer lab.  I also remember playing it and having it startle the shit outta me to the point where I had to quickly force-close it before the teacher saw what I was doing.  I BS'd a story that I'd accidentally closed the 'classwork' I was doing and lost everything.  They bought it, lol.

-Your entire little editorial is full of half-truths, flat out lies, gross assumptions, and a pitiful lack of research.  I'd love to be the one to take your job because apparently they hire any dim-witted typing monkey to make these 'articles'.  Utterly disgraceful :P

-Diablo 2 and Diablo 3 never have been 'MMOs'.  Many games that call themselves 'MMOs' aren't even in that category (such as most heavily-instanced games).  But the Diablo series just allows for a very limited number of people (4 in the original and 8 in the sequel; not sure about the 3rd one) to partake in slaying monsters.  It has online multiplayer and your character is stored on the server (if you play closed b.net on diablo 2) but the world 'resets' with every new game created.  It is not persistant, which is the primary crucial difference between a 'multiplayer online game' and the 'MMO' as we know them today.

More ranting in the next one :P

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 6115

10/18/12 2:38:35 AM#130
Originally posted by jcdenton2k

Others have more eloquenly stated what I've wanted to, for the most part.

-Piracy didn't 'begin' with Kazaa, nor was that the primary catalyst for modern digital piracy of video games.  Your assumptions make you look foolish due to a lack of insight or research into the 'piracy scene'.  Piracy has been around since computer games were first created for a profit.  I remember Doom on the PC being copied and spread throughout most of the HS computers in the computer lab.  I also remember playing it and having it startle the shit outta me to the point where I had to quickly force-close it before the teacher saw what I was doing.  I BS'd a story that I'd accidentally closed the 'classwork' I was doing and lost everything.  They bought it, lol.

-Your entire little editorial is full of half-truths, flat out lies, gross assumptions, and a pitiful lack of research.  I'd love to be the one to take your job because apparently they hire any dim-witted typing monkey to make these 'articles'.  Utterly disgraceful :P

-Diablo 2 and Diablo 3 never have been 'MMOs'.  Many games that call themselves 'MMOs' aren't even in that category (such as most heavily-instanced games).  But the Diablo series just allows for a very limited number of people (4 in the original and 8 in the sequel; not sure about the 3rd one) to partake in slaying monsters.  It has online multiplayer and your character is stored on the server (if you play closed b.net on diablo 2) but the world 'resets' with every new game created.  It is not persistant, which is the primary crucial difference between a 'multiplayer online game' and the 'MMO' as we know them today.

More ranting in the next one :P

This is kind of how I feel.  Normally I'm not too harsh on the editorials, but this series is boggling.

My first cracked game was Ultima III.  I didn't even know what the game was and had never heard of piracy really.  Anyway, my friend loaded it onto the Apple IIc we got to use in the Social Studies office.  He told me he found the coolest game and it was cracked so we could use a hex editor to modify the maps and game world.  We played the shit out of that game during free periods (or skipped classes).

The lack of good research, citations, poor logic, and spin in this series just rubs me completely the wrong way as well.  I don't care if someone doesn't like F2P or B2P or cash shops or whatever, but don't make up stories about it, stamp it with journalism and call it good.  That's just wrong.

Curse you AquaScum!

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