Originally posted by Dampyre
i love the game but there are some things i miss i am a little tired of only 10 attacks already , not saying i wan't what wow has , but another bar would help my personal longevity

i'd try ele or engineer if you want more attacks... my ele juggles 25+ almost all the time

Originally posted by KingJiggly
Anyone else notice how this went from 27-30 pages to 15 :P

sure you weren't logged out? forums shows a lot more posts per page when you are logged out vs in.. still 30 pages

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by KingJiggly
Anyone else notice how this went from 27-30 pages to 15 :P

sure you weren't logged out? forums shows a lot more posts per page when you are logged out vs in.. still 30 pages

I was and still am logged in, but it is fixed now. So odd.

Originally posted by Randayn

Originally posted by evolver1972

Originally posted by Yakamomoto

Originally posted by Randayn

Innovation has 1 definition and can be easily identified.  There is nothing subjective about my statement.  This game does not bring with it "innovation"....If I go and change the curtain on my window from ruffled to straight and short, does that mean I get a score of 10 for innovation??  Well, that's exactly what GW2 did, as well as follow in the footsteps of WOW by dumbing down the genre even more than it already was dumbed down.

 

Don´t worry, just take another MMO site off the credibility list, like I just did.

Innovation 10, woah this is a real kicker.

 

Thanks to this review, it´s good to know there will never be something else or better to expect from the MMO genre.

 

If GW2 is really the absolute "10" peak of innovation I guess it´s time to quit the genre alltogether and say goodbye to egg collecting, cow feeding and zergs. At the end I never liked Facebook games either.

By giving it a 10 for innovation he's not saying that's all the innovation any game is ever going to have from here on out.  He's saying the differences this particular game has over current games is way better than pretty much anything he has seen to this point.  That doesn't  mean a game won't come along in the future and be just as innovative as GW2 in a different way.

 

Besides, his overall score was 9.3.  That leaves room for improvement, I'd say.

 

But, if disagreeing with someone over how they rate a game makes you want to quit playing MMOs, I'll be glad I won't run into you in an MMO in the future.

the issue still remains that you cannot give a game a score for innovation unless they have actually innovated.  Jump quests and multi-user mat nodes....that's what they innovated.  Nothing else was a brand new idea brought to the forefront.  

Don't say DE's because they are still quests (some of the worst actually) and you still have to go somewhere (a hub) to get them, you just dont have to talk with anyone.  Don't say personal story....SWTOR anyone?  Don't say lack of trinity...I played Champions Online at launch and there was no trinity....it was a zerg/respawn fest much like GW2.  

So please tell me what they've brought to the table that is entirely new and innovative?  Please....

Apparently you didn't read the definition of innovative that I posted earlier.  It's not only something new that qualifies, it's something different.  Entirely new would be inventive, not just innovative (although that would still qualify as innovative).

What GW2 brings to the table as innovative isn't that they get rid of questing altogether.  How would that be done in a MMO anyway?  It's how they present the questing that is innovative.  1. They give you a choice about whether you even want to do the quests (DEs are not meant to be quests, they are events that happen in the world).  You don't have to do the hearts at all if you don't want to.  There are other ways to level.  2.  When you do the hearts (quests), you don't even have to talk to the NPC to get the quest, just go to the area.  3. You have a choice in how you want to complete the quest; you can kill x, gather y, feed z, or a mix of all three.  4. You don't have to go back to the NPC to get your reward, it comes automatically once you fulfill the quest.

That's 4 innovations in just one aspect of the game.  Questing.  That's what makes it innovative, in part.  Earlier in this thread, I listed a bunch of other innovations the game has; I'm not going to list them again here.

Innovation is not necessarily doing something completely new, it's also doing something in a different way.  GW2 does much of what has been so familiar in MMOs in a different way.  That's innovative by definition.

It's a really good review Bill.  I like that you took the time over several weeks to provide an ongoing review and then presented a well written finale.  I think you scored it nicely.

This game surprised me, a lot.  GW2 is a lot better in ways all the hype and rhetoric of forum pvp seemed to cloud during the beta.  I'm playing through the game now with my son (his first real MMO) and my original guild (the Shadowlight Order [SOR]) from Guild Wars 1.  We're having a blast exploring, completing achievements, and enjoying gaming together again.

This game cemented my break from the subscription model.  I just can't see paying a subscription plus a cash shop for a game anymore.

Originally posted by KingJiggly

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by KingJiggly

Originally posted by DavisFlight

It's hard to take this website seriously when they give SWTOR 9.5s and Vanguard a 6, and now claim that GW2 raised the bar...

 

People, the bar has been up there. AC, EQ, DAoC, UO, SWG, those games raised the bar. We've been wallowing well under the bar for about 8 years now thanks to WoW and its platoon of clones. GW2 is the first AAA MMORPG in years to even come close to the old MMOs (by, go figure, reusing ideas from Dark Age of Camelot) but lets not pretend its the best there ever was. It's just the first game to actually TRY in 8 years, but that doesn't invalidate the greatness of those golden age MMORPGs.

I have a question, why do people want the old MMOs? Because they were better, and made with a lot more care. Come on people, there is a reason the genre has changed. And that reason is because old MMOs became popular, so publishers got involved, but didn't want to do anything new, so they just plopped out the same garbage over and over. The market wants it. Haha no they clearly don't, considering every single WoW clone over the last 8 years has done really poorly and merged servers within months of launch. These people who comment about how this game comes close or offends them becuase the old MMOs were better gotta be kidding me. Take it from people who were actually there instead of guessing about times you never experienced. We're not kidding you. You all remind me of a English teacher who refused any new English. We had to pronounce words like metaphor into metapher and crap like that. Er, that's because that's how the word is pronounced. You don't go into a math class and say "but we want 2+2 to equal 10!" We hated it. He also had an odd superiority complex that I do not understand to this day. Back to the main issue, my point is things change and grow as time goes on. Hopefully, for the better. And in this case, not for the better. But hey, fuck us for wanting better products, right? There is a reason old MMOs do not exist. Right, because publishers who have no understand of the MMO industry stepped in. Becuase they weren't as good as you remembered them. I just played a freeshard the other day, it was just as amazing as I remember it. Better, actually. I've gotten used to such low quality products that I was kind of amazed how good the game was. In fact, they sucked. Thanks, yeah, I'll believe you, the person who never played old MMOs.

Listen, if you're going to debate about something, come in with even ANY idea about what you're talking about. If those old MMOs suck, then why did GW2 basically copy and paste their entire PvP design from old MMOs?

Hey, guess what, I was talking about MMOs prior to wow, which seems to be the end all be all in your mind. 

Edit: and you build new things on the ideas of old. Doac, which you seem to refer to a lot, barely has the amount of mechanics GW 2 does, now does it?

It has quite a few more, actually. Call me back when GW2 has Darkness Falls, relics, realm ranks, public dungeons, bounties, kill tasks, champion levels, and naval combat. But it's very obvious you never played MMOs before WoW.

Originally posted by evolver1972

Originally posted by Randayn

Originally posted by evolver1972

Originally posted by Yakamomoto

Originally posted by Randayn

What GW2 brings to the table as innovative isn't that they get rid of questing altogether.  How would that be done in a MMO anyway?

The same way it was done in the dozens of other MMOs that don't have quest based leveling? And just because GW2 doesn't copy the WOW quest formula, does not mean its questing system is innovative. Because it's not.

Dynamic events, yes. More evolution of public quests than outright innovative, but that's about the only place in GW2 where they deserve the praise they're getting.

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by evolver1972

Originally posted by Randayn

Originally posted by evolver1972

Originally posted by Yakamomoto

Originally posted by Randayn

What GW2 brings to the table as innovative isn't that they get rid of questing altogether.  How would that be done in a MMO anyway?

The same way it was done in the dozens of other MMOs that don't have quest based leveling? And just because GW2 doesn't copy the WOW quest formula, does not mean its questing system is innovative. Because it's not.

Dynamic events, yes. More evolution of public quests than outright innovative, but that's about the only place in GW2 where they deserve the praise they're getting.

By definition the hearts system in GW2 is an innovation to questing as I outlined in the parts of my post that you snipped.

Also, by definition, an evolution to something, as in taking a previous invention and presenting it in a different way, is innovation.

HD TVs are an innovation on the invention of the TV.  They are still both TVs, but HD TVs are a different version of the same thing.

Originally posted by evolver1972

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by evolver1972

Originally posted by Randayn

Originally posted by evolver1972

Originally posted by Yakamomoto

Originally posted by Randayn

What GW2 brings to the table as innovative isn't that they get rid of questing altogether.  How would that be done in a MMO anyway?

The same way it was done in the dozens of other MMOs that don't have quest based leveling? And just because GW2 doesn't copy the WOW quest formula, does not mean its questing system is innovative. Because it's not.

Dynamic events, yes. More evolution of public quests than outright innovative, but that's about the only place in GW2 where they deserve the praise they're getting.

By definition the hearts system in GW2 is an innovation to questing as I outlined in the parts of my post that you snipped.

I snipped them because they weren't innovative. Having multiple ways of starting and finishing a quest is a staple of classic MMORPGs, not a new idea. You honestly think GW2 was the first MMO that doesn't make you go back to the quest NPC?

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by KingJiggly

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by KingJiggly

Originally posted by DavisFlight

It's hard to take this website seriously when they give SWTOR 9.5s and Vanguard a 6, and now claim that GW2 raised the bar...

 

People, the bar has been up there. AC, EQ, DAoC, UO, SWG, those games raised the bar. We've been wallowing well under the bar for about 8 years now thanks to WoW and its platoon of clones. GW2 is the first AAA MMORPG in years to even come close to the old MMOs (by, go figure, reusing ideas from Dark Age of Camelot) but lets not pretend its the best there ever was. It's just the first game to actually TRY in 8 years, but that doesn't invalidate the greatness of those golden age MMORPGs.

I have a question, why do people want the old MMOs? Because they were better, and made with a lot more care. Come on people, there is a reason the genre has changed. And that reason is because old MMOs became popular, so publishers got involved, but didn't want to do anything new, so they just plopped out the same garbage over and over. The market wants it. Haha no they clearly don't, considering every single WoW clone over the last 8 years has done really poorly and merged servers within months of launch. These people who comment about how this game comes close or offends them becuase the old MMOs were better gotta be kidding me. Take it from people who were actually there instead of guessing about times you never experienced. We're not kidding you. You all remind me of a English teacher who refused any new English. We had to pronounce words like metaphor into metapher and crap like that. Er, that's because that's how the word is pronounced. You don't go into a math class and say "but we want 2+2 to equal 10!" We hated it. He also had an odd superiority complex that I do not understand to this day. Back to the main issue, my point is things change and grow as time goes on. Hopefully, for the better. And in this case, not for the better. But hey, fuck us for wanting better products, right? There is a reason old MMOs do not exist. Right, because publishers who have no understand of the MMO industry stepped in. Becuase they weren't as good as you remembered them. I just played a freeshard the other day, it was just as amazing as I remember it. Better, actually. I've gotten used to such low quality products that I was kind of amazed how good the game was. In fact, they sucked. Thanks, yeah, I'll believe you, the person who never played old MMOs.

Listen, if you're going to debate about something, come in with even ANY idea about what you're talking about. If those old MMOs suck, then why did GW2 basically copy and paste their entire PvP design from old MMOs?

Hey, guess what, I was talking about MMOs prior to wow, which seems to be the end all be all in your mind. 

Edit: and you build new things on the ideas of old. Doac, which you seem to refer to a lot, barely has the amount of mechanics GW 2 does, now does it?

It has quite a few more, actually. Call me back when GW2 has Darkness Falls, relics, realm ranks, public dungeons, bounties, kill tasks, champion levels, and naval combat. But it's very obvious you never played MMOs before WoW.

Not to mention the highly advanced raiding system DAoC had which has only been matched by 1 or 2 other MMORPGs.

Originally posted by DavisFlight

 

I snipped them because they weren't innovative. Having multiple ways of starting and finishing a quest is a staple of classic MMORPGs, not a new idea. You honestly think GW2 was the first MMO that doesn't make you go back to the quest NPC?

much like wow at the time this game has taken many of the best aspects of other games and meshed them into a great game as well as removing many of the issues of past games IE kill stealing, node stealing ect.. the way it brings all these features together alone is innovated much like how wow at the time innovated the themepark by streamlining many features from other games.. like said many times nothing needs to be 100% new to be innovative.

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by DavisFlight

 

I snipped them because they weren't innovative. Having multiple ways of starting and finishing a quest is a staple of classic MMORPGs, not a new idea. You honestly think GW2 was the first MMO that doesn't make you go back to the quest NPC?

much like wow at the time this game has taken many of the best aspects of other games and meshed them into a great game Except WoW left out the bulk of the better features, and just kept a shallow version of the boring features. And while GW2 has built on ideas, WoW never expanded or built on its features. as well as removing many of the issues of past games IE kill stealing was never an issue in any game I played, node stealing ect.. ect because you can't think of anything? the way it brings all these features together alone is innovated that's such a cop out "well no game has had this exact configuration! You can't claim a feature is innovative, find out its not, and then say, "oh but its like...totally presented in a unique way!" much like how wow at the time innovated didn't innovative AT ALL in all its years of running. the themepark by streamlining many features from other games.. wasn't the first game to do this like said many times nothing needs to be 100% new to be innovative.

Claiming something was done for the first time in one game, when it wasn't, is what the issue here is. It's like saying "No one had used a purple icon for quest NPCs before, THATS AN INNOVATION!"

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by evolver1972

By definition the hearts system in GW2 is an innovation to questing as I outlined in the parts of my post that you snipped.

I snipped them because they weren't innovative. Having multiple ways of starting and finishing a quest is a staple of classic MMORPGs, not a new idea. You honestly think GW2 was the first MMO that doesn't make you go back to the quest NPC?

No, it's the first mmo where the entire quest system does not revolve around talking to npcs to start and gather the reward for quests.  It's the first mmo where the entire quest system offers multiple paths to completion for every non story based quest.

And for the love of god please stop talking like you have some special knowledge about early mmos.  I played Lineage very early on and while it was an amazing game, it like all the early mmos had a ton of huge flaws.  I'm so glad that modern games don't try and strictly implement those mechanics. So please speak just for yourself and stop speaking for the rest of us who played old school games.  You don't represent my point of view at all.

- signed an old school gamer who played mmos way before wow and thinks you're opinion is whacked.

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by DavisFlight

 

I snipped them because they weren't innovative. Having multiple ways of starting and finishing a quest is a staple of classic MMORPGs, not a new idea. You honestly think GW2 was the first MMO that doesn't make you go back to the quest NPC?

much like wow at the time this game has taken many of the best aspects of other games and meshed them into a great game Except WoW left out the bulk of the better features, and just kept a shallow version of the boring features. And while GW2 has built on ideas, WoW never expanded or built on its features. as well as removing many of the issues of past games IE kill stealing was never an issue in any game I played, node stealing ect.. ect because you can't think of anything? the way it brings all these features together alone is innovated that's such a cop out "well no game has had this exact configuration! You can't claim a feature is innovative, find out its not, and then say, "oh but its like...totally presented in a unique way!" much like how wow at the time innovated didn't innovative AT ALL in all its years of running. the themepark by streamlining many features from other games.. wasn't the first game to do this like said many times nothing needs to be 100% new to be innovative.

Claiming something was done for the first time in one game, when it wasn't, is what the issue here is. It's like saying "No one had used a purple icon for quest NPCs before, THATS AN INNOVATION!"

sorry forgot you knew everything about what people want and like and you are the end all end all of what's innovated.. really you that closed minded you can't see people have differn't opinions about games and what features are considered good and interesting?

As someone who used to host MUDs on my BBS think I have been around long enough to know most of what people talk about from games in the past is pure nostalgia and not much more..

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by DavisFlight

 

I snipped them because they weren't innovative. Having multiple ways of starting and finishing a quest is a staple of classic MMORPGs, not a new idea. You honestly think GW2 was the first MMO that doesn't make you go back to the quest NPC?

much like wow at the time this game has taken many of the best aspects of other games and meshed them into a great game Except WoW left out the bulk of the better features, and just kept a shallow version of the boring features. And while GW2 has built on ideas, WoW never expanded or built on its features. as well as removing many of the issues of past games IE kill stealing was never an issue in any game I played, node stealing ect.. ect because you can't think of anything? the way it brings all these features together alone is innovated that's such a cop out "well no game has had this exact configuration! You can't claim a feature is innovative, find out its not, and then say, "oh but its like...totally presented in a unique way!" much like how wow at the time innovated didn't innovative AT ALL in all its years of running. the themepark by streamlining many features from other games.. wasn't the first game to do this like said many times nothing needs to be 100% new to be innovative.

Claiming something was done for the first time in one game, when it wasn't, is what the issue here is. It's like saying "No one had used a purple icon for quest NPCs before, THATS AN INNOVATION!"

 really you that closed minded

As someone who used to host MUDs on my BBS think I have been around long enough to know most of what people talk about from games in the past is pure nostalgia and not much more..

And you're telling me that I'm the one who is closed minded haha

Originally posted by DavisFlight

 

And you're telling me that I'm the one who is closed minded haha

typical response.. much like bcbully.. anyway another to my block list have a nice day

Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by evolver1972

By definition the hearts system in GW2 is an innovation to questing as I outlined in the parts of my post that you snipped.

I snipped them because they weren't innovative. Having multiple ways of starting and finishing a quest is a staple of classic MMORPGs, not a new idea. You honestly think GW2 was the first MMO that doesn't make you go back to the quest NPC?

No, it's the first mmo where the entire quest system does not revolve around talking to npcs to start and gather the reward for quests.  Wrong. It's the first mmo where the entire quest system offers multiple paths to completion for every non story based quest. Wrong.

And for the love of god please stop talking like you have some special knowledge about early mmos. I know more about them than the majority of people here.  I played Lineage very early on and while it was an amazing game, it like all the early mmos had a ton of huge flaws. Ok, I never brought up Lineage. And the flaws in games like DAoC are like a pebble compared to the core corrupting flaws in games like WoW.  I'm so glad that modern games don't try and strictly implement those mechanics. Ok, cool. I didn't like Lineage, so I'm glad too. But note Iwas never defending the bad parts of those games, I'm defending the good parts. So please speak just for yourself and stop speaking for the rest of us who played old school games. You seem to have played only one old school game, and not one of the better ones. You don't represent my point of view at all I never claimed to, but there are a TON of oldschool MMO vets of the same mindset as me.

- signed an old school gamer who played mmos way before wow and thinks you're opinion is whacked.

My opinion over what is innovative is whacked? We're not dealing with opinions, we're dealing with facts. And the fact is, people claim GW2 inventing some things that they didn't. Just like pretend try to claim WoW invented rest experience or the auction house.

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by DavisFlight

 

And you're telling me that I'm the one who is closed minded haha

typical response.. much like bcbully.. anyway another to my block list have a nice day

So when you can't out debate someone, you block them, mmhm.